paranoia on phd application

[zoistaffy]

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Hey everyone,

My friend is freaking out because she asked her psychology professor to write her a letter for PhD clinical psych applications and he told her that he wouldn't write her one, and said he didn't really think she was cut out for research. So now she is super paranoid he is going to call or email the schools that she applied to and try to get them to not accept her. I guess she did some research for him and something happened, I'm not sure the details, but I don't think it was anything that major-- maybe she forgot to record some data or something. In any case, my other friend thinks she has a legitimate reason to worry.

What?

is this true? Can professors cold call other universities and try to blacklist people? Especially if they weren't even asked to write a letter and found out some other way where the student was applying? This can't be possible.

Just to clarify-- I do not think there is anyway her professor for her class would say anything to anyone (he is a normal niceish guy) and he probably doesn't think he can write her a strong letter and she is overreacting. I'm more curious about whether stuff like this does happen. My other friend (who is done with her clincal PhD, says it has happened before.

There has to be a law against that! Slander or something!

Thanks in advance!

 

[erg923]

Hey everyone,

My friend is freaking out because she asked her psychology professor to write her a letter for PhD clinical psych applications and he told her that he wouldn't write her one, and said he didn't really think she was cut out for research. So now she is super paranoid he is going to call or email the schools that she applied to and try to get them to not accept her. I guess she did some research for him and something happened, I'm not sure the details, but I don't think it was anything that major-- maybe she forgot to record some data or something. In any case, my other friend thinks she has a legitimate reason to worry.

What?

is this true? Can professors cold call other universities and try to blacklist people? Especially if they weren't even asked to write a letter and found out some other way where the student was applying? This can't be possible.

Just to clarify-- I do not think there is anyway her professor for her class would say anything to anyone (he is a normal niceish guy) and he probably doesn't think he can write her a strong letter and she is overreacting. I'm more curious about whether stuff like this does happen. My other friend (who is done with her clincal PhD, says it has happened before.

There has to be a law against that! Slander or something!

Thanks in advance!

I think most would be way too busy to engage in such petty nonsense. However, I am curious how she thinks he knows what program faculty to call?

 

[PsychApps2009]

That'd be really odd for someone to do...

I think the only way it could happen (realistically), is if two professors or researchers knew each other well (especially within smaller research fields this isn't at all unlikely), such that her advisor knew who she was applying to, that person knew she worked for him, and asked him his opinion or he volunteered it.

I doubt anyone would go out of their way to cold call a school or another professor to discredit someone...- unless something was seriously out of line that maybe threatened the integrity of the actual application (e.g., finding out that an applicant lied about working for them, or co-authoring a publication, or having plagiarized something, etc.).

 

[okayroots06]

Hey everyone,

My friend is freaking out because she asked her psychology professor to write her a letter for PhD clinical psych applications and he told her that he wouldn't write her one, and said he didn't really think she was cut out for research. So now she is super paranoid he is going to call or email the schools that she applied to and try to get them to not accept her. I guess she did some research for him and something happened, I'm not sure the details, but I don't think it was anything that major-- maybe she forgot to record some data or something. In any case, my other friend thinks she has a legitimate reason to worry.

What?

is this true? Can professors cold call other universities and try to blacklist people? Especially if they weren't even asked to write a letter and found out some other way where the student was applying? This can't be possible.

Just to clarify-- I do not think there is anyway her professor for her class would say anything to anyone (he is a normal niceish guy) and he probably doesn't think he can write her a strong letter and she is overreacting. I'm more curious about whether stuff like this does happen. My other friend (who is done with her clincal PhD, says it has happened before.

There has to be a law against that! Slander or something!

Thanks in advance!

Rule of thumb: You should always ask a potential recommender if they are able to write a strong letter of rec. that is personal and not generic. This might be the case.

However, I strongly doubt the Professor will call and blacklist this applicant bec. it highly unethical and has strong ramifications for the professor as a professional.

 

[deleted176373]

Hey everyone,

My friend is freaking out because she asked her psychology professor to write her a letter for PhD clinical psych applications and he told her that he wouldn't write her one, and said he didn't really think she was cut out for research.

That's why you ask them, she should have never told that professor where she was applying.

So now she is super paranoid he is going to call or email the schools that she applied to and try to get them to not accept her. I guess she did some research for him and something happened, I'm not sure the details, but I don't think it was anything that major-- maybe she forgot to record some data or something. In any case, my other friend thinks she has a legitimate reason to worry.

He might, and he could, but how would he know where she's applying too? Most professors who want to kill your chances with either write a bad letter or elect not to write a letter, but won't do anything more active than that unless they know where you are going and have a vendetta.

is this true? Can professors cold call other universities and try to blacklist people? Especially if they weren't even asked to write a letter and found out some other way where the student was applying? This can't be possible.

Certainly it is possible. Why not? That's why you don't burn bridges!

Just to clarify-- I do not think there is anyway her professor for her class would say anything to anyone (he is a normal niceish guy) and he probably doesn't think he can write her a strong letter and she is overreacting. I'm more curious about whether stuff like this does happen. My other friend (who is done with her clincal PhD, says it has happened before.

There has to be a law against that! Slander or something!

Thanks in advance!

I had a professor I couldn't use after doing research with her... it happens, fortunately I had a bunch of professors lined up to write me letters!

Mark

 

[Ollie123]

As others have said I think it is very unlikely. While technically possible (anything is), I've never heard of this happening. The only scenario I see it coming up is if the professors know each other quite well on a personal level. If they are in the same research area this is a definite possibility (academia is amazingly small). In this case it is far more likely that the POI would call THIS person to get their opinion than vice versa. If not...unless this person makes a huge deal on her applications about her absolutely wonderful experience with professor x and the admissions folks wonder why no letter was obtained, it is very unlikely any contact will happen.

Frankly, unless this person single-handedly tanked an entire million-dollar study and/or set the lab on fire, I doubt this professor has enough time to justify spending it cold-calling schools to try and get an undergrad black-listed. Frankly, this person is not nearly as important as she apparently thinks she is - I doubt the professor is staying up late at night trying to come up with vindictive plots.

 

[BiopsychStudent]

On a related note I encountered a situation I thought was odd while asking a professor I did research with for a letter of recommendation. Now, I did waive my right to view the letter, but it almost seems she went to some lengths to make sure I didn't even have a sealed copy in my possession:

1) When i asked her for one she agreed. She seemed enthusiastic; encouraged me to apply and said I had a reasonable shot at it, and had been helpful to me in the past. Compared to my other recommenders I also noticed she was a little less responsive when it came to email communication.

2) Told her I'd bring the necessary forms, postage, etc. to the department the next day. She said not to worry about the postage (I figured she was just being nice and was very liberal with the department's postage machine? I don't know.)

3) I bring all the necessary forms, biographical information, and envelopes to the professor. I wait for the letters to arrive so I can send off my applications. Never happens. But I check the status for some of my programs and it seems she sent the letters directly to the programs, and not to me signed and sealed.

It might be nothing but I feel like she made an effort to ensure I don't even have a SEALED physical copy of the letter: This makes me worry to believe she either didn't fully trust me or mentioned something unflattering. Alternatively, she is very active in research and committees (and sort of forgetful) and might have just been busy, and misplaced or forgotten some of the materials.

So I don't know if this should set off any red flags or not; if I fail to gain acceptance this cycle should I ask for letters from this person again?

 

[erg923]

On a related note I encountered a situation I thought was odd while asking a professor I did research with for a letter of recommendation. Now, I did waive my right to view the letter, but it almost seems she went to some lengths to make sure I didn't even have a sealed copy in my possession:

1) When i asked her for one she agreed. She seemed enthusiastic; encouraged me to apply and said I had a reasonable shot at it, and had been helpful to me in the past. Compared to my other recommenders I also noticed she was a little less responsive when it came to email communication.

2) Told her I'd bring the necessary forms, postage, etc. to the department the next day. She said not to worry about the postage (I figured she was just being nice and was very liberal with the department's postage machine? I don't know.)

3) I bring all the necessary forms, biographical information, and envelopes to the professor. I wait for the letters to arrive so I can send off my applications. Never happens. But I check the status for some of my programs and it seems she sent the letters directly to the programs, and not to me signed and sealed.

It might be nothing but I feel like she made an effort to ensure I don't even have a SEALED physical copy of the letter: This makes me worry to believe she either didn't fully trust me or mentioned something unflattering. Alternatively, she is very active in research and committees (and sort of forgetful) and might have just been busy, and misplaced or forgotten some of the materials.

So I don't know if this should set off any red flags or not; if I fail to gain acceptance this cycle should I ask for letters from this person again?

I think your concern is more reflective of modern days norms and expectations than anything else. What you described is actually what the process is supposed to be like, at least it has been in the past. When I applied to my first graduate program, my letter writers agreed, I supplied my vita and GRE scores, they wrote the letter and sent it off. Thats simply the way it worked. I think the advent of electronic technology slowly changed these norms and students have gotten used to seeing their letters before they are sent. For example, my professors/supervisors sent me a copy of my APPI rec letters in an email attachment.

PS: Department postage is for the business and academic responsibilities of the faculty. I think LORs certain qualify as such.

 

[PsychApps2009]

On a related note I encountered a situation I thought was odd while asking a professor I did research with for a letter of recommendation. Now, I did waive my right to view the letter, but it almost seems she went to some lengths to make sure I didn't even have a sealed copy in my possession:

1) When i asked her for one she agreed. She seemed enthusiastic; encouraged me to apply and said I had a reasonable shot at it, and had been helpful to me in the past. Compared to my other recommenders I also noticed she was a little less responsive when it came to email communication.

2) Told her I'd bring the necessary forms, postage, etc. to the department the next day. She said not to worry about the postage (I figured she was just being nice and was very liberal with the department's postage machine? I don't know.)

3) I bring all the necessary forms, biographical information, and envelopes to the professor. I wait for the letters to arrive so I can send off my applications. Never happens. But I check the status for some of my programs and it seems she sent the letters directly to the programs, and not to me signed and sealed.

It might be nothing but I feel like she made an effort to ensure I don't even have a SEALED physical copy of the letter: This makes me worry to believe she either didn't fully trust me or mentioned something unflattering. Alternatively, she is very active in research and committees (and sort of forgetful) and might have just been busy, and misplaced or forgotten some of the materials.

So I don't know if this should set off any red flags or not; if I fail to gain acceptance this cycle should I ask for letters from this person again?

My quick first impression is that if you told her that you would provide the postage, she probably had it in her head that you meant for her to mail them herself. I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[jekyl]

On a related note I encountered a situation I thought was odd while asking a professor I did research with for a letter of recommendation. Now, I did waive my right to view the letter, but it almost seems she went to some lengths to make sure I didn't even have a sealed copy in my possession:

1) When i asked her for one she agreed. She seemed enthusiastic; encouraged me to apply and said I had a reasonable shot at it, and had been helpful to me in the past. Compared to my other recommenders I also noticed she was a little less responsive when it came to email communication.

2) Told her I'd bring the necessary forms, postage, etc. to the department the next day. She said not to worry about the postage (I figured she was just being nice and was very liberal with the department's postage machine? I don't know.)

3) I bring all the necessary forms, biographical information, and envelopes to the professor. I wait for the letters to arrive so I can send off my applications. Never happens. But I check the status for some of my programs and it seems she sent the letters directly to the programs, and not to me signed and sealed.

It might be nothing but I feel like she made an effort to ensure I don't even have a SEALED physical copy of the letter: This makes me worry to believe she either didn't fully trust me or mentioned something unflattering. Alternatively, she is very active in research and committees (and sort of forgetful) and might have just been busy, and misplaced or forgotten some of the materials.

So I don't know if this should set off any red flags or not; if I fail to gain acceptance this cycle should I ask for letters from this person again?

I would never accept a LOR from someone who would not let me read it. I'm not saying this from a "holier than thou" position though. It's only logical to me, since it's my future on the line, that I be allowed to see what it is they have to say about me. There should be total transparency. Anything less and they are not the letter writer for me.

I don't see any reason whatsoever for a LOR to be kept secret from the requester. I know others disagree, but that's my 2 cents.

 

[BiopsychStudent]

I would never accept a LOR from someone who would not let me read it. I'm not saying this from a "holier than thou" position though. It's only logical to me, since it's my future on the line, that I be allowed to see what it is they have to say about me. There should be total transparency. Anything less and they are not the letter writer for me.

I don't see any reason whatsoever for a LOR to be kept secret from the requester. I know others disagree, but that's my 2 cents.

I'm inclined to agree, but from what I've gathered from the research I've done (SDN, Insider's Guide, often the way it was framed on electronic applications) it appears to be the norm to waive your right to view it.

 

[erg923]

I would never accept a LOR from someone who would not let me read it. I'm not saying this from a "holier than thou" position though. It's only logical to me, since it's my future on the line, that I be allowed to see what it is they have to say about me. There should be total transparency. Anything less and they are not the letter writer for me.

I don't see any reason whatsoever for a LOR to be kept secret from the requester. I know others disagree, but that's my 2 cents.

Letters where the person receiving it knows for certain that the student either drafted it or was shown the letter (eg,, you checked that you did not waive your right to see it) will generally not be considered by admissions committees or at least will cast significant doubt on the validity of the letter.

 

[jekyl]

Letters where the person receiving it knows for certain that the student either drafted it or was shown the letter (eg,, you checked that you did not waive your right to see it) will generally not be considered by admissions committees or at least will cast significant doubt on the validity of the letter.

Pardon my extreme sarcasm, but would your eyes leave "eyeprints" on the piece of paper that is your LOR? How would anyone in the world know if you read your own LOR?

And NO ONE said anything about drafting or writing the letter yourself. I am speaking only on being allowed to read what your letter writer wrote about and for you.

 

[ClinChildPsy13]

erg923 +1 .

I have heard from many places that no one considers those letters with the same weight as letters where the writer can be completely honest. I have had a couple professors who have asked me to write a letter template for them for jobs, which they would then put in their own words...but at least that way I knew what went in. Another showed me his 2 page wonderful recommendation of me and let me read it before he put it in the envelope and sealed/signed it. With these couple exceptions, the majority of my research writers never offered to share their letters and I would never ask to see them.

 

[psich]

Pardon my extreme sarcasm, but would your eyes leave "eyeprints" on the piece of paper that is your LOR? How would anyone in the world know if you read your own LOR?

And NO ONE said anything about drafting or writing the letter yourself. I am speaking only on being allowed to read what your letter writer wrote about and for you.

lol Sure, you can read the letter – if your writer will allow it – and no one would have to know. But they are under no obligation to show you what they wrote if you waived your rights. And it is customary for a student to waive their rights because it gives the committee the assurance that you did not influence the recommendation in any way. If you want to see the letter, sure - that's why there are options on applications that say "I do not waive my rights to view my letter of recommendation."

 

[erg923]

Pardon my extreme sarcasm, but would your eyes leave "eyeprints" on the piece of paper that is your LOR? How would anyone in the world know if you read your own LOR?

And NO ONE said anything about drafting or writing the letter yourself. I am speaking only on being allowed to read what your letter writer wrote about and for you.

Because the "I waive my right to see the letter" form is submitted to the professor before the letter is written and mailed off, as it has to be attached to the letter. Thus, unless the envelopes with the letters are given back to you (which is somewhat common now, but didnt use to be) then you have no opportunity to see the letter and approve it before its sent off.

 

[jekyl]

These are good points (above). I never read my LOR's from my undergrad professors when I was applying to graduate schools. As a graduate student my philosophy regarding these letters changed over the years. I believe, and have been influenced by more "liberal" professors, that there should not be any secrets concerning LOR's. If a professor believes s/he will fail to write an honest letter because the requester is going to read it, then that sounds like their issue and perhaps they should not have agreed to write the letter.

I am not in a position to write letters yet, but when the day comes I imagine I will say "no" if I cannot write a strong letter. And if I do agree, I believe I will share that letter once it is complete. This is not to say that I will ask for feedback from the requester, but it lets them know what I have to say about them. It's a letter for them and will influence their future, not mine. They should have the control to use it or not. If they are kept out of the loop they cannot do this.

 

[O Gurl]

As a graduate student my philosophy regarding these letters changed over the years. I believe, and have been influenced by more "liberal" professors, that there should not be any secrets concerning LOR's. If a professor believes s/he will fail to write an honest letter because the requester is going to read it, then that sounds like their issue and perhaps they should not have agreed to write the letter.

I have had the same experience and have actually never even heard of waiving my right to see the letter. My faculty advisers are very much in favor of showing me the final product beforehand. In fact I actually collaborate with them. Right now I am working on postdoc apps and have sent the position announcements, my current CV, and my career statement to my letter-writers. They each have certain points of my training that they will cover in their letter (e.g. clinical skills, research accomplishments, overall academic history, professionalism). In short, they rock and I love them. 😀

I plan to do the same thing if and when letters are requested from me. Like Jekyl pointed out, if you have to hide something in the letter from the subject, then you shouldn't be writing the letter. But this is what I like most about SDN forums-- it allows us to hear how things are done differently in other places.

 

[MaybeNever]

I have had the same experience and have actually never even heard of waiving my right to see the letter. My faculty advisers are very much in favor of showing me the final product beforehand. In fact I actually collaborate with them. Right now I am working on postdoc apps and have sent the position announcements, my current CV, and my career statement to my letter-writers. They each have certain points of my training that they will cover in their letter (e.g. clinical skills, research accomplishments, overall academic history, professionalism). In short, they rock and I love them. 😀

I plan to do the same thing if and when letters are requested from me. Like Jekyl pointed out, if you have to hide something in the letter from the subject, then you shouldn't be writing the letter. But this is what I like most about SDN forums-- it allows us to hear how things are done differently in other places.

I find that kind of interesting, because I'm exactly the opposite - I can't imagine NOT waiving that right. I'd love to see what was written about me - although of course I have some sense of it because my writers were people who know me and whom I know - just to be sure that the letters comprehensively and, to my mind, accurately supported my applications. The fact that they would no doubt be glowing endorsements of my incredible abilities, thus stroking my imponderable ego, is a mere side note. However, it feels like it would be astonishingly boorish and even disrespectful to raise the subject of reading them before they went out.

 

[jekyl]

I find that kind of interesting, because I'm exactly the opposite - I can't imagine NOT waiving that right. I'd love to see what was written about me - although of course I have some sense of it because my writers were people who know me and whom I know - just to be sure that the letters comprehensively and, to my mind, accurately supported my applications. The fact that they would no doubt be glowing endorsements of my incredible abilities, thus stroking my imponderable ego, is a mere side note. However, it feels like it would be astonishingly boorish and even disrespectful to raise the subject of reading them before they went out.

Disrespectful sounds like a strong word. But I am interested in understanding why you feel that way if you care to explain your thoughts more.

I think I already said it, but to me it makes sense to "be in the know" since these letters have a direct impact on your future placements, career paths, etc. In my opinion you should have the power to say yes or no to a letter. If you don't, then someone who is not able to write you a strong letter may feel compelled to say "yes" to write it in an attempt not to "let you down". When in fact they are letting you down by writing an average letter. I suppose we each should have a keen awareness of how highly each of our supervisors/professors regard us, but that's not always possible or plausible.

 

[Ollie123]

My interpretation of "Waiving your right to see the letters" was always that it just meant you weren't going to insist upon it. I think it could be a legal deflection on the part of the school because they don't want people asking for letters back from them afterwards to find out why they didn't get in, suing all involved parties, etc. This is in addition to all the obvious issues of trust and letter integrity. I don't believe that checking that box precludes the faculty member writing it from showing it to you. It just means, you aren't insisting that you sign off on what they say. I'm not a lawyer, but I do believe there is a critical distinction between "waiving the right" to see something, and formally agreeing NOT to see something.

I will also throw in that we are discussing whether faculty should agree to write letters if they can't write great ones. I could just as easily argue the burden should be on the student to only ask people they know can write great letters. Everyone's definition of "great" is variable and it seems an unfair burden to place on faculty to know how good a letter is "expected" for each person. If a person is a hard-worker and does a good job in the lab, but cannot be given the rave, glowing review that someone else might get - do they refuse to write the letter? How is this decision arrived at? I'd say the burden lays with the student to only ask people they KNOW can and will write a solid letter, and that they trust to do so. I didn't even get interviews from the majority of schools I applied to, but I'm quite confident it wasn't my letters that brought me down because I was picky about who I asked and even without seeing the letters I more or less know what went into them.

 

[jekyl]

My interpretation of "Waiving your right to see the letters" was always that it just meant you weren't going to insist upon it. I think it could be a legal deflection on the part of the school because they don't want people asking for letters back from them afterwards to find out why they didn't get in, suing all involved parties, etc. This is in addition to all the obvious issues of trust and letter integrity. I don't believe that checking that box precludes the faculty member writing it from showing it to you. It just means, you aren't insisting that you sign off on what they say. I'm not a lawyer, but I do believe there is a critical distinction between "waiving the right" to see something, and formally agreeing NOT to see something.

I will also throw in that we are discussing whether faculty should agree to write letters if they can't write great ones. I could just as easily argue the burden should be on the student to only ask people they know can write great letters. Everyone's definition of "great" is variable and it seems an unfair burden to place on faculty to know how good a letter is "expected" for each person. If a person is a hard-worker and does a good job in the lab, but cannot be given the rave, glowing review that someone else might get - do they refuse to write the letter? How is this decision arrived at? I'd say the burden lays with the student to only ask people they KNOW can and will write a solid letter, and that they trust to do so. I didn't even get interviews from the majority of schools I applied to, but I'm quite confident it wasn't my letters that brought me down because I was picky about who I asked and even without seeing the letters I more or less know what went into them.

I agree that the majority of the burden of a LOR is and should be on the requester. With that said, it is often difficult to know exactly what a particular faculty member thinks of you. You may have a solid working relationship but that doesn't mean they particularly like you and will go to bat for you in the letter. I have found that the supervisors/professors that I feel confident in their letter writing are also the same people who practically insist that I read their letter.

I also think that once you had read a few dozen LOR's yourself, you quickly get a sense for letter writers that really believed in their student's ability vs. letter writers who are going through the motions.

 

[MaybeNever]

Disrespectful sounds like a strong word. But I am interested in understanding why you feel that way if you care to explain your thoughts more.

I think I already said it, but to me it makes sense to "be in the know" since these letters have a direct impact on your future placements, career paths, etc. In my opinion you should have the power to say yes or no to a letter. If you don't, then someone who is not able to write you a strong letter may feel compelled to say "yes" to write it in an attempt not to "let you down". When in fact they are letting you down by writing an average letter. I suppose we each should have a keen awareness of how highly each of our supervisors/professors regard us, but that's not always possible or plausible.

What's that? Why yes, I'd love to talk about myself some more!

Unfortunately, the response seems to be a more visceral than rational one. My best guess is that it feels to me like insisting on seeing the letter would be disrespectful simply because it might imply a lack of faith in the writer, or a motivation that's more about ego than surety of the letter's service. "I want you to write a letter, but I'm not sure you'd do a good job" isn't exactly a strong argument in one's favor, after all! Basically it seems to me that it could give offense, I suppose, which I prefer to avoid with people who are or were mentors and will some day perhaps be colleagues.

This is probably due to what transpired the first time I asked for a letter of recommendation for a position during undergrad, when I, unfamiliar with etiquette, offered to seal and deliver the letter to save the professor the trouble, and he eyed me suspiciously and acted very guarded about the topic from then on. So I just figured it was a big no-no to put oneself in a position to read the letter.

That said, I do understand and agree with the reasoning to see the letter before sending it off. Given the importance of the LOR, it only makes sense that the subject of the letter be content with it instead of having to throw the dice on that element. If I were a writer, I think I'd either refuse to write the letter if I felt I couldn't do a good job, or agree and offer to let the subject read it beforehand. Had my writers done so, I'd have gladly jumped at the chance.

 

[StudentBsMs11]

I find that kind of interesting, because I'm exactly the opposite - I can't imagine NOT waiving that right. I'd love to see what was written about me - although of course I have some sense of it because my writers were people who know me and whom I know - just to be sure that the letters comprehensively and, to my mind, accurately supported my applications. The fact that they would no doubt be glowing endorsements of my incredible abilities, thus stroking my imponderable ego, is a mere side note. However, it feels like it would be astonishingly boorish and even disrespectful to raise the subject of reading them before they went out.

I feel similarly to MaybeNever. It feels like some kind of faux pas to ask a recommender to see their LoR. Unlike MaybeNever, I don't really have a good reason to feel that way, since one of my original LoR writers actually sent me a copy of his letter to proofread and asked me exactly what I wanted in it, thus throwing me totally off-stride as I had assumed the process was shrouded in secrecy and professor-speak.

I also agree that some of the onus should be on the requester to find individuals who can speak to the things they write about in their applications, and can do so in strong, positive terms. This, however, is easier said than done, as I'm sure we've all discovered by now!

 

[jekyl]

I feel similarly to MaybeNever. It feels like some kind of faux pas to ask a recommender to see their LoR. Unlike MaybeNever, I don't really have a good reason to feel that way, since one of my original LoR writers actually sent me a copy of his letter to proofread and asked me exactly what I wanted in it, thus throwing me totally off-stride as I had assumed the process was shrouded in secrecy and professor-speak.

I also agree that some of the onus should be on the requester to find individuals who can speak to the things they write about in their applications, and can do so in strong, positive terms. This, however, is easier said than done, as I'm sure we've all discovered by now!

I definitely agree there is *something* weird about asking (that is, if your letter writer does not offer). BUT, that does not mean it's disrespectful or something similar. I think many older professionals are old-fashioned and were raised in a system where there were secrets. I think we are part of a new era though (like that? How I speak for everyoner lol?).

I can imagine asking someone who I believe thinks highly of me for a letter and not feeling comfortable asking to read it. With that said, I will not be that type of person when I am in a position to write letters for others. I will be open with what I write, even if they don't feel comfortable asking.

 

[O Gurl]

I find that kind of interesting, because I'm exactly the opposite - I can't imagine NOT waiving that right. I'd love to see what was written about me - although of course I have some sense of it because my writers were people who know me and whom I know - just to be sure that the letters comprehensively and, to my mind, accurately supported my applications. The fact that they would no doubt be glowing endorsements of my incredible abilities, thus stroking my imponderable ego, is a mere side note. However, it feels like it would be astonishingly boorish and even disrespectful to raise the subject of reading them before they went out.

Quick question: who said anything about the requester raising the subject of reading the letter? 😕

I stated in the very beginning of my response that my advisers are in favor of showing me the letter and eliciting my feedback on it. Which makes sense to me. It doesn't have be a question of whether they will say positive or negative things. That should be a no-brainer. The requester should have a decent enough gauge to know if the faculty member or supervisor thinks highly of them. The adviser or supervisor should have sense enough to not agree to write a letter for someone they think poorly of. The real reason why my letter writers ask for my feedback is to make sure they are addressing the relevant points. In some cases they know me in different capacities and want to make sure their letter is in sync with the rest of the application.

Having to sign a waiver of my right to see the letter would seem boorish and unbecoming to me for only one reason: what the heck would they put in it that they'd have to hide?

 

[thefall]

Biopsychstudent: You could just be paranoid. That the emails from you weren't promptly returned could be due to so many factors. Eg, the prof being extremely busy. Did you insist the prof return you the letters in sealed envelopes for you to submit? If not, the prof may have felt they were doing a favor by submitting via email. Or the prof is so used to submitting via email that the thought of mailing a hardcopy never crossed their mind. On the other hand, and not to encourage your paranoia, some people, especially in this field, aren't as stable as we might like them to be, and go back on their word. Here's a suggestion. You say the two of you had a good relationship and the prof encouraged you to apply. That's good evidence that what was written had the strength of a letter you would expect from that prof. What you could do, now that the letters have been sent, and if you still have future program deadlines to meet, is ask if it's OK to see their letter. Tell the prof you're redrafting your SOP and wanted to know if XYZ was in their letter so you can appropriately match that in your SOP. Or, perhaps, cut some stuff from your SOP because the content of the LOR covers that material. Or, here's another option, instead of asking to out-right see the letter, ask the prof if they could tell you ideas about the included content, for the same hypothetical reasons I stated above. If the prof refuses, even that does not necessarily indicate they wrote something they want to hide from you. Some people hold to very strict "principles" that can drive other people crazy, but is not really reflective of the strength of the letter. Finally, as others wrote, it's common recommenders have the applicant write the letter, then they modify, sign, and send. Tell your prof a recommender asked you to do this. And so would it be possible to see the letter they wrote for you to give you a idea of how to write a recommendation letter for yourself. Hope some of this helps. Good luck, relax, and stay positive!

 

[hokie11]

I also think this is really unlikely...she would've had to have done something truly awful. One of my friends screwed up in a lab that she was working in, and the professor who was managing it and also writing her letter, told her that she needed to increase her GRE scores, basically implying that he would mention her mistake. But never have I heard of something like that happening...