Pardon and Redemption

[Hampster10]

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[Hampster10]

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[smq123]

I am the prodigal daughter returning from my forays into other specialties

I'm confused. 😕 Did you previously match into ortho? (I know you said that you're a recent grad, but how recent?) Did you complete the prelim year in surgery that ortho residencies require? How did that go?

 

[JackADeli]

I am the prodigal daughter returning from my forays...I want to know if anyone will take me seriously as a General Surgery applicant...

Maybe I'm just cranky.... But, I'm not sure we should take you seriously. Go see your school counselor, surgery mentor, etc....

 

[Hampster10]

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[Doctor Bagel]

Maybe I'm just cranky....

Maybe so.
Anyone with any actual input?

I think people are unable to give pertinent input until you answer questions like those that smq asked.

 

[Hampster10]

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[Hampster10]

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[SteelCity]

oh and thanks Jack, but i'm not sure i'll be coming to your neck of the woods unless you're one of these:
baylor
duke
massgen
UWash...
etc

 

[JackADeli]

...i'm not sure i'll be coming to your neck of the woods unless you're one of these:
baylor
duke
massgen
UWash...
etc

Exactly my point. Why should we take you seriously. You apparently already think your going to one of those. You maybe. So, why ask the question. I do not believe someone with the USMLE scores you post is so dumb as to believe a website will give them the answer.

JAD

 

[SocialistMD]

oh and thanks Jack, but i'm not sure i'll be coming to your neck of the woods unless you're one of these:
baylor
duke
massgen
UWash...
etc

If you want any advice, I'd check your attitude at the door. Whether or not it is the truth, you sound like someone who applied ortho, didn't match and are using gen surg as a backup because you think it will be easier. Reason being, I doubt you came to this great realization about your true love prior to the match and withdrew your ortho application. Whether or not it was a blessing in disguise and will allow you to do what you really will enjoy longterm is immaterial; general surgeons generally don't take kindly to people who see our first choice of a career as a fall-back, as they typically lack the love of the work to be good residents (a generalization, but one that many will on some level make), so we are all skeptical helping someone whose sincerity is in question. All that said, will it hurt your gen surg application? I'm not sure, and I'm not sure many people here will really know, either, explaining the lack of responses. What I do know is you are right to ask the question, as you've seen the obstacles you'll face.

Do I think you will get taken seriously if you interview? Most likely, as your scores will get you interviews at most general surgery programs (though not at some of the programs you apparently think they will) and research is research, but you will have to really work on your explanation as to why you are going gen surg, as your dedication to the field will be the biggest obstacle to overcome (if you can keep your attitude under control).

 

[JackADeli]

oh and thanks Jack, but i'm not sure i'll be coming to your neck of the woods...

No, I do NOT suspect you will be coming to my neck of the woods (even if you wanted to)...

If you want any advice, I'd check your attitude at the door. ...All that said, will it hurt your gen surg application? I'm not sure, and I'm not sure many people here will really know, either...

I think that was said quite well.

I am not sure WS (or anyone else) can tell you if Baylor/Duke/Massgen/etc... will take you seriously. She was not to my knowledge someone that shot for Ortho and changed her mind... and I don't know if she even interviewed there? In short, "we" do not know how a PD will take your application. Each of us has a unique experience with a limited number of interviews.

You can use the search option and look at all the numerous WAMC (What Are My Chances) threads and see what peoples scores and challenges were.....

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=554686&highlight=surgery+chance

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=491728&highlight=surgery+chance

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=318664&highlight=surgery+chance

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=547305&highlight=surgery+chance

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=513119&highlight=surgery+chance

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=420310&highlight=surgery+chance


I am presuming you are now a "doctor"? So, show some intellect and do some real research and work towards your goal.... I dare say that is not the same as posting some scores and literary dribble about being the "prodigal daughter" of anything on some internet forum.

Do I think you will be taken seriously? Not with "prodigal", "woeful", "sea of P's", "money line", "my first love", "more like home", "flirted with radonc", etc....
It just might be time for you to be serious "doctor".

 

[Winged Scapula]

Everyone can check their attitude at the door.

I was about to post that the OP has the necessary stereotypical bad general surgery attitude, so should fit right in. But then many of my friends here gave it right back to her.

We don't know whether or not the OP applied for Ortho and didn't match, but it is true that she posted in the Rad Onc forum 2 months ago and asked about going into Rad Onc. I suspect she either purposely took the year off or didn't match.

But it doesn't matter to me what the back story is. I am not in the mood for "troll hunting" today and am actually, wine in hand, interested in trying to help.

BTW OP, those that have posted here, even medical students are worth listening to. I started on SDN as a student and hope that I was able to give some good advice back then, but clearly some of the perspective has changed.

Ok, so regardless of what you are doing now some things are evident:

1) your USMLE scores are good, especially Step 2

2) they may not be that impressive at some of the places you've listed (ie, Duke, Mass Gen, etc.) where despite the Ortho impression, general surgery residents commmonly have stellar Step 1 scores

3) believe it or not "very good" in your Dean's letter as an opinion about your ability to be housestaff is not a "money comment". As a matter of fact, where I come from, its what you write when you are sort of "meh" about a candidate. If I saw this in a Dean's letter, I would wonder why you weren't top notch, excellent, etc.

Is there some reason your Dean would have written this? Or is it the case that he NEVER writes that someone has excellent potential, would love to keep them at our program for residency, etc.?

4) your year off will be looked at with a jaded eye. Maybe its a stereotype but general surgeons, perhaps more so than the subspecialists, have a critical attitude and a nose for BS. Its what I get commonly called as being intimidating or mean.

Whatever, as noted above by SocMD, it is very likely that you may be seen as someone who didn't match into Ortho and now is looking for other options.

If this is true, its a difficult situation to manage. You could lie, but some won't believe you. I am sure that the reason I didn't get as many Gen Surg interviews had to do with the fact that my 4th year was filled with PRS electives (which I chose over Ortho - so I understand your love of the tools).

No one wants to be the back-up. Not your BF and not your general surgery program.

So how do you make them believe you've had a change of heart? Well, spending this year doing gen surg research. Having faculty vouch for you. Some "spin" and slick talking about how you realized it wasn't right for you after all. It may be a hard sell. You might have to set your sights lower. Programs like Mass Gen, Duke, etc. are not hard up for gen surg residents. Despite the "common knowledge", gen surg is pretty competitive at most places and especially at those places. They have hundreds more applications than spots...so they don't generally have to dilly dally around with people with a year off, no general surgery electives, audition rotations, etc. They have armfuls of people with 231 on Step 1 who WANT to be general surgeons. Why should they waste their time with someone who might be "ehhh"?

Who knows whether or not they'll buy it.

Your scores will open doors. You will likely get interviews based on them alone (maybe not at the top tier programs you've listed). It will be up to you to show them you've had a change of heart and will not bail on them the first Ortho position that shows up on findaresident.

I never interviewed or even applied to Mass Gen, Duke, etc. I did interview at Baylor and stayed in a Holiday Inn last night.

I can tell you as someone who applied for Integrated Plastics and didn't match, that some programs DID ask me about all the plastics electives and LORs from plastic surgeons. Some never apparently looked at my transcripts. Some probably didn't invite me for interviews because of it (but I'll never know).

best of luck to you... (PS: I liked your wording - ie, "sea of Ps", etc. Then again, one of my "favorite" experiences as a med student was to have the infamous Hiram Polk fling my personal statement across his desk to me [I was doing a sub-I there] and say, "damn it woman, this is SURGERY [his emphasis] not a God damned English composition." I think he thought I was too flowery in my language too - I am suprised JackADeli that you would think so too. Always thought of you as a more Renaissance man.)

 

[JackADeli]

...am actually, wine in hand...

Cab, Merlot, or something white😍

 

[smq123]

thanks drbreakfast or whatever,
btw if you are MS3,2,1,premed, pls refrain from responding, I think there might be more appropriate threads for you to respond to- this ain't one of them. I do appreciate it, though, cute.

Wow. You're one month out of med school and you're already treating med students like that? Interesting, and disheartening.

Reminds me of the peds intern I had during MS3. She had such a low opinion of med students that she refused to talk to them, except to snap orders at them.

In any case, good luck.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Cab, Merlot, or something white😍

I am not a red wine girl (I know, it marks me as a newbie).

Am drinking a Chardonnay from California.

Another glass and I may drunk dial my plastic surgeon crush and see what he's doing. 😉

 

[smq123]

I am sure that the reason I didn't get as many Gen Surg interviews had to do with the fact that my 4th year was filled with PRS electives (which I chose over Ortho - so I understand your love of the tools).

The "tools" as in surgical instruments, or the "tools" as in the other residents with you in the room? 😕



(I kid, I kid. )

 

[Winged Scapula]

The "tools" as in surgical instruments, or the "tools" as in the other residents with you in the room? 😕



(I kid, I kid. )

Ha ha...

we had some gorgeous Ortho residents when I was a student. Matter of fact, the Chief of Ortho was once joking with me (at least I think I was joking) that I was interested in Ortho because of his attractive residents.

After my intern year, the only tools left were my attendings (but I DID have some Chief resident tools as an intern...JAD can vouch for that).

 

[Fah-Q]

Another glass and I may drunk dial my plastic surgeon crush and see what he's doing. 😉

Classic!!

 

[JackADeli]

...(but I DID have some Chief resident tools as an intern...JAD can vouch for that).

Yep, can remember the late night page from one...
tool, "come to OR now"....
I did, and proceed to stand there and watch him do some vascular, until
attending asked him, "do you really think your that great that you should page an intern to stand here and watch you fumble with an anastamosis? JAD get out of here!"
I think he is your transplant favorite now

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yep, can remember the late night page from one...
tool, "come to OR now"....
I did, and proceed to stand there and watch him do some vascular, until
attending asked him, "do you really think your that great that you should page an intern to stand here and watch you fumble with an anastamosis? JAD get out of here!"
I think he is your transplant favorite now

Yeah, he would definitely be at the top of the list.

Funny thing is, several years later, one of the other tools we had as Chief, came back to see some "rare" CT procedure we were doing. I actually HUGGED the guy when I saw him.

I think they call it Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[JackADeli]

I think they call it Stockholm Syndrome.

Oh, it's a syndrome alright!!!

 

[Hampster10]

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[Hampster10]

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[Hampster10]

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[Hampster10]

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[Winged Scapula]

Thanks alot WS!! I knew you'd come through for me. Geez, it's like you ask a question and get attacked for anything and everything. I strongly feel that was not the intent of this site. But your reply was worth all the sniper fire.

No its not the intent, but as I noted, we do tend to be a suspicious type. Perhaps we do jump on people a little too soon...but then again, there are plenty of SDN forums where that happens.

And thanks for knocking some sense into all those trigger happy others.

Heh...you grossly overestimate how much influence I have on this unruly bunch.

This was not my intent. I value everyone's role and their place. I just typically have not sought career/academic advise from people who have not already walked down the path in question.

There are two problems with this attitude (and I have been guilty of the same):

1) you don't know what experiences someone has had before. I spent several years prior to medical school working with, socializing with and living with residents and doing medical research working in hospitals. That fact meant that even though I'd never been a resident I had a lot more insight into residency than most medical students.

2) you don't always have to experience something directly to have some knowledge of it. The students may offer perspective from their program which may be different than what you saw.

We are always arguing here about how horrible surgical residency is/has to be. Not all of us have had the same experiences but it doesn't mean that anyone of us has less valuable words to say.

That said, we do not like it when pre-meds come in here and tell us how much we should work, why we're stupid for doing what we do, etc. (see the Sticky which discusses this).

So its far enough to say you only want to hear from attendings but given there are few of us around here, the thread would be very short, very dull and without the useful responses you might otherwise get.

Yes, I love shakespeare and classic literature and classic american essays. Me and Dr. Atul Gawande (like one of my idols) both and he turned out alright in GenSurg I think and he writes for the NewYorker.

Ughh...forget it. You are not in the club anymore.

I don't even have the energy to devote to such unwarranted attacks

JAD is trying to help but he's on his 46th PG-Year and is a bit cranky these days.

 

[Dimoak]

No its not the intent, but as I noted, we do tend to be a suspicious type. Perhaps we do jump on people a little too soon...but then again, there are plenty of SDN forums where that happens.

Gotta be on the lookout for those pesky Certified Registered Nurse Surgeons.....😀

 

[Hampster10]

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[Hampster10]

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[Hampster10]

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[SocialistMD]

ha, only defending myself against unprovoked attacks!!! would do it again but don't want to offend WS

I wasn't attacking you. I was telling you to chill out if you wanted anyone to offer any help.

If it makes you feel better to think that, be my guest. Free country and all.

As I said, it doesn't matter if it is simply what I think or if it is the truth; that is how your application looks when given the limited amount of information you gave (and seemed very reluctant to reveal more, instead choosing to fire back at JAD and play name games with Dr. Bagel). Assume that is what everyone will infer from your application and equip yourself with answers to those types of questions. That is why I said it was good for you to ask this question on this forum; it will allow you to gain outside perspective and know what could possibly be asked.

 

[JackADeli]

...such unwarranted attacks
...only defending myself against unprovoked...

debatable.... but not in the mood today

...those links were actually very helpful...I get the message. ...may be middle of the road ....applying widely will be a great strategy....

now that wasn't so hard was it.

...JAD is trying to help but he's on his 46th PG-Year and is a bit cranky these days.

Heh, I resemble that comment!

 

[skiz knot]

...was to have the infamous Hiram Polk fling my personal statement across his desk to me [I was doing a sub-I there] and say, "damn it woman, this is SURGERY [his emphasis] not a God damned English composition."

good ol' Hiram n' Fire-em😀

 

[GSresident]

good ol' Hiram n' Fire-em😀

He was still around when I was at U of L. I used to go on his Monday morning walk rounds. Man did he get after residents sometimes. For some reason he seemed to like me. He never yelled at me and he seemed to respect my opinion about plastic surgery issues in patients. If you're ever on those rounds just be sure you are wearing a tie and your white coat.

 

[Winged Scapula]

As I think back to it, I think Hiram Polk called me "young lady" instead of woman. Boy was I mortifed at the time.

As GSResident notes, he did get after some residents. I remember the Burn Rounds and watching the Chief residents shake when presenting to him. It was pretty intimidating to me, coming from a medical school were most surgeons were kind and friendly.

I'll betcha GSResident and I were there at the same time. I did my rotation during the summer/fall of 2000. Maybe Octoberish?

 

[Raidergate]

I did a couple of cases Friday morning with Dr. Polk, things went just fine.

All you have to do is follow a few simple rules:

1. Don't talk. To anyone. You have nothing to say that would be beneficial or educational compared to what he would say. Both of the cases were melanoma excisions done under local with anesthesia there with monitors on. The patient was wide awake and asked me several questions. I did not answer a one of them. Just waited for Polk to get around to answering them. The CRNA at one point patted the patient on the shoulder and said everything was going fine.

Polk said, "You're here to watch the monitors. Don't talk to and don't touch MY patient. Ever." Ouch.

2. Yes sir. No sir. No exceptions.

3. Don't palm the needle driver.

4. Two handed ties only.

5. Ask for catgut on anything beneath the skin if the scrub asks you what you want.

Follow these rules, and you, too, can spend a nerve wracking, but in the end, ok day with Polk in the OR. Even got a good job today out of him.

I also put in a chest tube with him on one of his 30+ year patients my 2nd month as an intern. It was my 3rd chest tube ever, and he probably hadn't done one in 30 years. That was a less pleasant experience, let me tell you.

I'll be honest though, it's an honor to do stuff with a legend like him. Not many people in the world of surgery who have done the things he's done, much less the way he did them.

 

[JackADeli]

...polk said, "you're here to watch the monitors. Don't talk to and don't touch my patient. Ever." ...

snap!!!

 

[surg]

I am the prodigal daughter returning from my forays into other specialties and need advice from you wonderful experts out there (esp attg WingedScapula, your honesty is what I'm hungry for).

-Recent grad MD, top 10 med school, somewhere in that dreaded 50% on the bell curve of my class,
-Step1: 231/96
-Step2: 272/99
-woeful basic science grades (ashamed to repeat them here, let me just say sea of P's); mostly HighPasses and Honors in clinics
-non AOA, 1 outstanding student award (orthopedics) on grad day.
- Money line on Dean's letter has "very good" as the summary of my potential as housestaff.
- "Functioned at intern level", another money comment, mostly on my Peds and Family medicine evals (AGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!)

Here's the REALLY bad stuff:
- transcript absolutely riddled with ortho electives and 1 single general surgery sub-I, even away rotations in ortho
- research strictly in orthopedics

I am returning to general surgery which was my first love, after realizing I would probably not be the most proficient ortho resident- I'm not that physically strong (failed every single reduction of a hip dislocation I attempted) and I honestly always was a little more bewildered in ortho than the average med student. Not to mention I found myself constantly looking over into the general surgery rooms and wanting more to manage G-Surg pts post-op. somehow it feels more like home.

Originally strayed because afraid of the hours, malignant environment, instrument throwing...

Flirted with RadOnc somewhere in there but I like my hands a little dirtier (too much testosterone for a woman I guess).

I want to know if anyone will take me seriously as a General Surgery applicant. This is no backup for me. this is what I'd like to become good at someday and I can honestly see that happening.

This year- research- attempting to get pedisurg; have some pediheme lined up.

OK, here's my evaluation of this, as someone who has interviewed people for both a top program as you wanted to target, and now in what is a mid second tier University program.

Your step 1 score: barely hits cutoff for a full read at most top places, would get read at my current institution, but is at best middle of the road.

step 2 score: excellent, but I haven't really put as much stock into step 2 since not everyone has that score by the time they apply.

Grades: Not the end of the world, but it would depend on where your HP and H grades were obtained (which rotations (such as medicine and surgery) and whether they were core or elective rotations since most people get virtually straight H's in their M4 year anyway). Also, is your school a tough grading school or not? It's on your dean's letter and I do take that into account. Again, though, most of the successful applicants at the top tier, had top grades.

non-AOA: not a plus, but not a deal breaker

Dean's letter: not a plus, (very good usually equates to middle third of class at best), again not necessarily a deal breaker where I am now, but definitely a downer at the top tier schools.

Rotation Comments: don't really care what your FP and IM people said, unless it was bad. What did your surgery comments say?

Transcript with all ortho: I'm going to ask you about this at your interview, and you better believe I expect you to have a good answer. It wouldn't hurt if at least one of your LORs or your personal statement gave me a good convincing argument as to why you have converted back to GS (although some would argue that you should just not draw attention to it in case someone didn't notice)

LORs: you didn't mention them. You need them. I put a lot of stock into the insights that they give when they are well written.

Year off: for goodness sake, have something good lined up. A general surgery type research experience would be best. Peds Heme doesn't make me believe in GS for you on its face unless you address it in your Pers. Statement as to why it fits.

Bottom line: you can try applying for all the top places, you'll probably scrape at least 40-60% of them with an interview if you have the LORs you need, but you need to apply widely, unless you knock out a Science or Nature paper by the time you come interview, really impress me at your interview, or can get someone who knows us to call us and make us believe that we must have you. You don't have anything truly outstanding on your record that makes you a high end applicant and your application certainly generates a few question marks that a top tier program really just doesn't have to tolerate without some mitigating factor. You will be quite competitive though for mid to upper mid tier programs though. If you just apply widely enough, you should find a place to land.

Best of luck. Hope you will come back and update your progress so that others will be able to benefit, the same way you are benefiting from this forum.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

I'll chime in as a voice of hope. There was a girl at Columbia in a very similar situation this past year-- though she took an ortho research year in between third and fourth year rather than afterwards-- and realized her heart wasn't in it after one clinical ortho sub-i. She had enough time to put together a couple of gen surg aways and matched very well in general surgery, with very similar statistics to yours.

It's not the end of the world if you didn't figure out what you wanted to do until "too late." As you're graduated you can't do formal clerkships, but at least set up some general surgery observerships next summer. Make 100% sure that your research is conducted with a general surgeon who will write you a strong letter (if you went to a top 10 medical school it will be crawling with them-- you don't need to mess around in pedi heme/onc, so I'm a bit confused there, honestly). Keep on good terms with whoever evaluated you in MS3 and gave you those surgery Honors-- you'll need a letter from them, too.

And perhaps, just perhaps, Hamster was attempting to adopt a rather nervously tough persona in a room full of strangers. She only has 21 posts, after all.

 

[homealone3]

It's amazing how a good glass of wine or cocktail can make one much more tolerant of the menacing wannabes of this world. Had I not just had a good double Grey Goose myself, I would tell this prodigal daughter where she could shove her pompous elite program aspirations.

 

[goldandapager]

The pretentiousness of the OP is killing me. Now I know what happens to the pre-meds who linger after tests to see how everyone did.