Particularly more holistic DO school??

[tkim]

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I mean what other profession legitimizes 2 completely equivalent professional groups with legally distinct names when they undergo the exact same schooling, boards, are legal equivalents, are compensated the same, and perform the EXACT same function?

Dentistry - DDS or DMD.

However, neither one claims a radically different philosophy of care from the other.

 

[Prodigy]

Dentistry - DDS or DMD.

However, neither one claims a radically different philosophy of care from the other.

👍

 

[scpod]

...But those commitments are made on a personal level, and any physician--MD or DO--can make those commitments...you just want to wear that commitment on your shirt-collar, as if it's a token of your supposed commitment to certain superfluous ideas...

You're right in that anyone can choose to make the commitments...but they don't. The majority of people (notice I didn't say 100%) who want to make the claim that DO's are just MD's + OMM never really wanted to be osteopaths in the first place. They wanted to be MD's and this is their way of rationalizing the decision. They are forced to deny the osteopathic philosophy exists because it would invalidate their own choices.

In the realm of medical care, there really is no difference other than OMM or any other added modalities that may be chosen. But, there IS that philosophical commitment that only DO's have. Anyone else can have it, BUT they don't wite it down on paper and agree to live by it. Again, no one is saying it's better...it's just different in that aspect.

Yes, there are a lot of DO students now who seem to claim that DO is just MD + OMM but, like I said, they just never wanted to be osteopaths in the first place. Oh, some are pretty good at hiding it, though. Some will even go on to do OMM fellowships just to prove some point, but deep down inside they are still wannabe MD's-- and it's their right to be that way.

One guy in my first semester appeared to be really gung-ho DO. He went to all the conferences, talked about how mucch he loved it-- he even shaved OMM into his chest and showed the whole class one day (he was very hairy). In December of the first semester he was accepted to his in-stae MD school and droppeed out over the Christmas break. All along he was still trying to get into MD schols. Hee looked and acted the part of a DO student, but he never really had it.

The degree is different because of history and the fact that the osteopathic philosophy is still taught. It doesn't matter if any one the other professional colleges give out different degrees. Were there two different paths of law that survived the rigors of time to become the modern-day profession? Was there an 1800's guru of accounting who led a wave that focused on better ways to keep records and competed with other accounting philosophies?

But wait, there were two different baseball leaugues that survived throughout the years and still compete with each other to this day. Many of the others fell by the wayside while these two live and continue to flourish. Even though most of the rules are the same, the designated hitter rule will always divide them on the purely simple basis of PHILOSOPHY. Over time, they have come to interact more and more, but they are eternally divided on that one point. They are under the umbrella of one organization, yet they remain two separate entities solely based on one insignificant idea.

 

[DragonWell]

A fundamental disconnect in this conversation seems to be the assumption that ascribing to a certain philosophy must translate into specific actions. I don't think this is the case.

Ever worked for a company with a mission statement? The DO philosophy is pretty much the same thing.

I have worked in hospitals that have had mission statements, or "core values" as they liked to call them, and those that did not. The core values at one hospital I worked at were "Compassion, Justice, Respect, Excellence, and Stewardship". Notice the core values say nothing specific about patient treatment - that's up to JCAHO or whoever else will be looking over our shoulders for the rest of our lives. Quantitatively, treatment at both hospitals was essentially the same, but qualitatively, I did see some differences which could be attributable, at least in part, to the expression of core values.

Advertising has a funny way of leaking into your head below conscious awareness - that's why the drug reps don't mind giving you all their pens. As a worker or patient, seeing the core values displayed all over the place gives a sense of what the organization values (or at least what they want you to think they value), and might change some workers attitudes a bit, or make patients feel a little more comfortable. Obviously the HR departments think it does something, since they are always plugging it at inservice meetings.

Don't forget that mission statements are also good marketing - a fact which the AOA is apparently quite cognizant of. Although they never miss a chance to advertise osteopathic medicine as "holistic", the DO schools I am familiar with are actually somewhat behind many MD schools as far as integrating CAM education goes.

Of course, people who disagree with the values are likely to be alienated - which is probably one reason why they are left so vague. Who disagrees with "excellence"? Or for that matter that "structure and function are related"?

So at the end of the day, the difference is that DOs have a mission statement and advertise it, MDs don't.

But, are mission statements always followed? In answer to that, remember a little company called Enron, who prominently displayed their core values: "respect, integrity, communication and excellence".

 

[homeboy]

... They wanted to be MD's and this is their way of rationalizing the decision. They are forced to deny the osteopathic philosophy exists because it would invalidate their own choices.

wanted to be PHYSICIANS, and didn't care if that was MD or DO.

In the realm of medical care, there really is no difference other than OMM or any other added modalities that may be chosen. But, there IS that philosophical commitment that only DO's have. Anyone else can have it, BUT they don't wite it down on paper and agree to live by it. Again, no one is saying it's better...it's just different in that aspect.

so you're basically saying there is no difference (other than optional OMM) except that some superfluous ideas are written down on paper that technically, officially, by means of holding a DO degree, they ascribe to.
wow, that's a great argument for maintaining the "DO difference."

 

[tkim]

You guys are going over well-tread ground. Here's a great article that I think crystalizes the issues well:

http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/paradox_of_osteopathy.htm

"Osteopathy was originally created as a radical alternative to what was seen as a failing medical system. Its success at moving into the mainstream may have come at a cost -- the loss of identity. Most people -- including physicians -- know very little about the field (most people know more about chiropractic). Many people -- even osteopaths -- question what osteopathy has to offer that is distinctive.

Those who claim that osteopathy remains a unique system usually base their argument on two tenets. One is the holistic or patient-centered approach, with a focus on preventive care that they say characterizes osteopathy. That claim to uniqueness is hard to defend in the light of the increasing interest paid to this approach within general internal medicine and other areas of allopathic medicine.

The other, potentially more robust, claim to uniqueness is the use of osteopathic manipulation as part of the overall therapeutic approach. In osteopathic manipulation, the bones, muscles, and tendons are manipulated to promote blood flow through tissues and thus enhance the body's own healing powers. The technique, based on the idea of a myofascial continuity that links every part of the body with every other part, involves the "skillful and dexterous use of the hands" to treat what was once called the osteopathic lesion but is now referred to as somatic dysfunction. Osteopathic manipulation is not well known (or practiced) by allopathic physicians, but for decades it has stood as the core therapeutic method of osteopathic medicine."

[...]

"A 1995 survey of 1055 osteopathic family physicians found that they used manual therapy only occasionally; only 6.2 percent used osteopathic manipulation for more than half of their patients, and almost a third used it for fewer than 5 percent. The more recent their graduation from medical school, the less likely practitioners were to use osteopathic manipulation, a finding consistent with the view that osteopathic practice is moving closer to allopathic practice. A decreasing interest in osteopathic manipulation may also indicate that more physicians enter osteopathic medical school not as a result of a deeply held belief in the osteopathic philosophy but after failing to be admitted to allopathic medical schools. The osteopathic physicians who are more committed to osteopathic manipulation tend to be more likely than their colleagues to have a fundamentalist religious orientation."

[...]

"At the end of the century, osteopathy continues its uneasy dance with allopathy, but only one partner is really paying attention. The resurgence in the numbers of osteopaths should not mask the precarious position of osteopathy. At its birth, osteopathy was a radical concept, rejecting much of what allopathic medicine claimed was new and useful. Today, osteopathic medicine has moved close to the mainstream -- close enough that in general it is no longer considered alternative medicine. The long-term survival of osteopathic medicine will depend on its ability to define itself as distinct from and yet still equivalent to allopathic medicine. That argument may best be articulated not in theoretical terms, but by demonstrating treatment outcomes. The paradox is this: if osteopathy has become the functional equivalent of allopathy, what is the justification for its continued existence? And if there is value in therapy that is uniquely osteopathic -- that is, based on osteopathic manipulation or other techniques -- why should its use be limited to osteopaths?"

 

[scpod]

...
wow, that's a great argument for maintaining the "DO difference."

I'm not maintaining a "difference." I'm just an individual following the osteopathic philosophy and headed towards a DO degree. YOU are the one who keeps arguing about a difference.

 

[J1515]

Who cares? You people remind me of the idiots who argue whether it should be called "DO school" or "medical school" or if they should change the DO degree to MDO or something else. Don't you all have anything better to do with your time?

 

[homeboy]

Who cares? You people remind me of the idiots who argue whether it should be called "DO school" or "medical school" or if they should change the DO degree to MDO or something else. Don't you all have anything better to do with your time?

yea, like step II, but every now and then I feel like arguing with the simpletons on SDN.

 

[hilseb]

Interesting thread.

I haven't combed every reply. I saw a pic of Andrew Weil but I am not sure if anyone described his program. He has a fellowship at University of Arizona that is an Integrative Medicine fellowship, last I heard. I assume this would be post doctorate and residency.

In my prior life, I was a CAM (Complementary and Alternative Medicine) medical researcher. Just like pharmaceuticals, there are hundreds of types of CAM, including individual herbs, fatty acids, probiotics, diets, vitamins, and minerals, not to mention modalities and other energy work or hands on therapies. Anyone who goes on here making sweeping claims about all CAM studies as if they all have been in vitro or have insignificant results is speaking out of their, well, alternative hole. That is like saying all prescriptions are poison. There are entire evidence based WHO reports on probiotics, and AHRQ evidence reports on omega fatty acids. Like most sweeping statements, those about CAM just make the speaker look uninformed.

 

[Bleurberry]

I have wanted to be a doctor all of my life.

After I entered college, I obtained a better understand of how our medical system works and decided what I really wanted was to be a healer. I graduated 2 years ago with the intention of attending a holistic school, like a naturopathic school for example. I have been practicing bodywork for 3years ( http://HealingCasanova.com ).

I have now begun the process of applying to med school as I have made some different choices. I believe that having a medical degree will provide me with move opportunity and influence in the long run to accomplish my goal of bringing healing, not merely a potential temporary fix, to those who desperately need it in our society.

However in searching for a mentor or the right school I have been met with great challenge. I understand medical curriculum is standardized I but I know there is a population of older physicians who have turned toward a more holistic practice. is there not a way the choose this from the beginning or must you go through med school then get further holistic type schooling?

Im looking for a practitioner mentor or schools with amore preventative practice reputation. I know DO schools tend to be more preventative, but is there one in particular?

Im interested in nutrition, bodywork, herbs, energetic medicine/ therapy and other holistic therapies in conjunction with western medicine.

Thank you for any guidance on my path.😍

My best buddy Fred lives down in Austin. I love that place.

So I checked your website out very briefly; Since you've gotten your hands dirty and really have involved yourself in volunteer patient relations and know your "metal", I would suggest you take a
close look at the OMM programs of each of the DO schools of your liking.

A small minority of D.O. student's are entering the OMM/NMM residency program after graduating, it's a viable option for you. Other than the Integrative Medicine track, and they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, I would advise another course of study, another career path.

I'm excited to pursue an OMM/NMM residency path. OMM has real clinical value, and has a wide array of application in public and private practice.
I'm leaning toward the idea of applying myself in encouraging new OMM residency programs to open, specifically in Philadelphia. The best news is I have 10 years to do it, and I'll need every day in between now and then to make it happen. Ultimately, patients love it, they have a quicker recovery rate which is always good (more time in the hospital = more chances at contracting a nasty bug), and it saves the institution resources and capital.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Those who claim that osteopathy remains a unique system usually base their argument on two tenets. One is the holistic or patient-centered approach, with a focus on preventive care that they say characterizes osteopathy. That claim to uniqueness is hard to defend in the light of the increasing interest paid to this approach within general internal medicine and other areas of allopathic medicine.

This is true... preventitive care (and its many synonyms, such as that ubiquitous word "holistic") is the cornerstone of any family practice, whether the doc has M.D. or D.O. after their name.

On the other hand, a trauma surgeon is probably not going to be very concerned with nutrition and herbal supplements as part of his practice, even if he graduated from KCOM.

"Multiple GSW's to the chest and abdomen, 2 units given on the field, pt is decompensating quickly, what do we do?"

"Let's get him some Omega 3 and some ginseng on the rapid infuser STAT! And I need a spiritual history NOW if I want to properly empathize with him!"

right... so I say, the philosophy of a doctor is a lot more dependent on their choice of residency than on their med school.

 

[Bleurberry]

This is true... preventitive care (and its many synonyms, such as that ubiquitous word "holistic") is the cornerstone of any family practice, whether the doc has M.D. or D.O. after their name.

On the other hand, a trauma surgeon is probably not going to be very concerned with nutrition and herbal supplements as part of his practice, even if he graduated from KCOM.

"Multiple GSW's to the chest and abdomen, 2 units given on the field, pt is decompensating quickly, what do we do?"

"Let's get him some Omega 3 and some ginseng on the rapid infuser STAT! And I need a spiritual history NOW if I want to properly empathize with him!"

right... so I say, the philosophy of a doctor is a lot more dependent on their choice of residency than on their med school.

Lest we forget that OMM is being performed in the trauma unit at St. Barnasbas, NY as part of the OMM residency there. (I've heard it mentioned once or twice, I haven't seen it first hand yet).

 

[LaLaLives]

I know this is old, but I agree with the post quoted below. Beyond this, it's important to understand what your patients are taking if for nothing else but to educate them on the precautions. Take a look at the side effects of some of these herbs and it's clear to see that a lot of them shouldn't be taken with meds or by people with certain conditions, as they can cause a wide array of very dangerous reactions.

No, but just because you don't g through it doesn't mean that's the way it's done everywhere. There is always an osteopathic element to each of our cases in PBL. How deeply you explore it depends on the individual facilitator, but we look at the osteopathic treatments that can be used in conjunction with western medicine for every pathology.

In addition, we will begin incorporating Integrative Medicine (ie. Complementary and Alternative Medicine) into PBL next semester. The first case is already written and approved. We have a fairly active CAM club here and some professors that are gung-ho about this.

So...you don't feel cheated...but what will it hurt to learn about this stuff. Your patients are already reading about it and learning about it over the internet. They see it every night on TV. The general public has lost a lot of faith in western medicine and you need to be prepared to confront your patients and discuss what's going on in their lives. If you make them think it's all a crock of &^%$, then you'll lose their trust and their care will suffer. Think about it.

 

[kbrinsky1]

Hey OP,

I was kind of in the same boat you were in, I'm an acupressurist and massage therapist, and I found that out of the DO schools on my interview trail DMU definitely stood out to me as having more electives that seemed to deal more with alternative medicine...from what I remember. I'd say check out elective course descriptions and those would link up to some teachers or whatever it is your looking for.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Wow, bump from hell.

 

[hooperg]

Yea...

Unless it's peer-reviewed, repeatable, efficacious, and subject to high standards, it's placebo at best and quackery at worst. But I guess people will spend (waste) their money as they will, whether it be compulsive gambling or Echinacea.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I am easily the most holistic DO student in America today.

 

[TeamZissou]

Wow, bump from hell.

Seriously. I gotta say I've been completely disappointed in the threads we have going in the DO student area lately. They all seem to revolve around degree changes and jibberish like this.

Maybe it's time for us regulars to bring up topics that are a bit more relevant to the average DO student. (I don't have any ideas at the moment but I'm just saying...🙄)

 

[Medbear]

+1

 

[JaggerPlate]

Seriously. I gotta say I've been completely disappointed in the threads we have going in the DO student area lately. They all seem to revolve around degree changes and jibberish like this.

Maybe it's time for us regulars to bring up topics that are a bit more relevant to the average DO student. (I don't have any ideas at the moment but I'm just saying...🙄)

Sounds good.