Pass/Fail Med School

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DrBorisCA

aka. Flaming Cheeto
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So I just got back from one of my TX interviews at a well reputed academic institution, where I was extensively grilled about my rank, grades, etc at my pass/fail school. When I replied that we have no ranking (as far as I am aware of), they proceeded to probe "what do I think my rank would be if there were grades", which took me aback... That line of questioning continued for what felt like five minutes. I understand their need to get a grasp of an applicant's academic prowess, but other than our USMLE scores and evals, we are gradeless. Any advice on how to better handle questions like that for a P/F school? :shrug:
 
If you haven't already, you might want to ask your school if they indeed do have a ranking system. Many H/P/F schools can still piece together a ranking system based on Honors grades, test scores, Step 1 scores, evals, and the like.

Does your school have an AOA system? If so, they probably rank.
 
My school also has no grades, and we have no AOA or ranking system whatsoever because of this. Typically when asked questions about my school, I mention that we are evaluated on an evidence-based portfolio system instead. Only a couple times have people been interested enough for me even to go into further detail than that. Do you guys have some sort of evaluation system other than grades (assessments, portfolio, etc) that you could describe?
 
From the other side of the table, I want to point out how difficult it is to assess candidates at P/F schools. The two I am most aware of are UCLA and the Lerner SOM which is based at the Cleveland Clinic (if I remember correctly). It is very difficult to rank people from these schools, sadly I end up putting more emphasis on USMLE scores because that's all I have.

The latter school drives me crazy -- they "grade" based on a portfolio, and then when you apply don't give anything from that portfolio. The MSPE states "we've reviewed their portfolio and their performance is satisfactory". Isn't the whole point of portfolio based evaluation the ability to show your portfolio to show what you have done?
 
I am a Lerner College student, and yes, this program is based at the Cleveland Clinic.

aProgDirector, our portfolios are absolutely enormous after 4+ years. There is no way that you would be able to read through the entire thing, even assuming you really wanted to read through it all. But since you and the applicants both have a vested interest in making sure that you can adequately evaluate them, it makes sense to make sure you get whatever information you need. Can you tell me what exactly you would want to see from the portfolio of an applicant from CCLCM? Our portfolios contain the following broad types of information:
  • PBL, homework, and communication/PD evaluations from our first and second years
  • individual faculty and resident evaluations from third year, as well as rotation evaluations
  • portfolio essays with citations that are written by the students during years 1, 2, and 4, which our promotions committee uses to decide if we have met the competencies
  • other random miscellaneous things that people may choose to include, like copies of publications, award letters for fellowships, etc.
I assume you would be most interested in seeing the final portfolio essay and some or all of the core third year (and maybe AI?) rotation evaluations. If the applicant were willing to send you whatever parts of their portfolio that you wanted to see, would you be able to use them?

Thank you for taking the time to answer everyone's questions.
 
A couple of suggestions:

1. First, I'm not certain I understand why a medical school has to have no grades. I could imagine that the reason could be the following:

A. Grades create competition, and the school is trying to create a spirit of cooperation.
B. Grades don't really measure medical school performance well, and a portfolio is a better way of doing so.
C. The school believes that once someone's performance is "satisfactory", they do not want to report any more than that because that information can be misused. For example, there is no real reason that students going into dermatology have to be at the top of their class, other than medical schools report this and programs decide to use it.

Reason A is not true, IMHO. It might be true depending on how the school does it's grading, but many schools give those students who help others learn higher grades, and that alone would drive people to help each other.

Reason B is possible, but that assumes that a portfolio is a better way to assess performance, and that some way of reporting that in your application is possible.

Reason C is unrealistic. Programs have to decide whom they want based on something. If schools do not report any sense of how well a student has done, then we will use something else -- like USMLE's.

2. If a school wants to make a portfolio evaluation system work, then I agree I'd need to see some of that portfolio. This is where things get tricky, and demonstrates the difference between a portfolio and a transcript. In a transcript, I get to see all of your grades. In an artist's portfolio, they get to show me only what they want -- a sampling of their best work. This allows students to bury any problems / concerns raised.

So, here's what I would want:

1. I don't need anything from the first two years. I'll use your step 1 score to measure that. Of course, if you would have done really well in a graded environment and then you botch you step 1, I would never know and assume the Step 1 is accurate. The opposite is also true, so this could work both for and against you.

2. All of your third year evaluations, verbatim. No editing, no selective selection of statements. Yes, this means that there will be some negative / contructive criticism statements in there. That's life.

3. Same for a Sub I.

4. Honestly, some sense of how well you've done compared to your peers. I don't need a class rank. I do think it's reasonable to know whether you're in the top, middle, or bottom third (or top, middle two, or bottom quartile -- or any other reasonable system).

Honestly, I'm open to new ways of doing things and I think that a portfolio evaluation for medical school is completely reasonable. It's just that some summary of your portfolio needs to be in your MSPE, rather than the statement that "it's been reviewed, and is acceptable".
 
...
Reason A is not true, IMHO. It might be true depending on how the school does it's grading, but many schools give those students who help others learn higher grades, and that alone would drive people to help each other.
...

Really? Never heard of this.

I agree with the rest of your suggestions, with the exception of using step I as the sole performance metric of the preclinical years. For the reasons you described. I personally believe scores should be taken in context. I would also like to know about any potential “red flags” – failed courses/rotations, attempts at remediation, time off for academic/personal reasons, etc. Which I guess would be in the MSPE.

I always chuckle when I read the last sentence in some MSPEs which says that the applicant is "EXCELLENT", which when decoded actually means "middle 1/5 of the class".
 
In regards to grades creating a competitive atmosphere, it really does depend on how the school does grading. I have a few friends at schools who curve each class and only the top 10% can get A/honors. Thus, if you find out valuable information from a teacher on what to study/what's important, it is in your best interest NOT to share that information.

At my school, we just have straight cut-offs for A/B/C, and thus if everyone scored above a 90%, then everyone get's an A. Apparently, our transcript shows your actually %% and the average, thus each PD can see how you did in each class. Also, our class rank is an option we can have included on the transcript. (ie. if I'm in the top of the class, I'll include it..same goes for our MSPE, our actual class rank is given only if we are in the top 25%, while the rest are only given quartiles, and then the bottom half doesn't say anything).

There is *some* competition at my school as people want to be in the top 5%-10% of class rank, but I would say 99% of my class is very helpful vs. what my friends say at their schools where only like half the class helps each other.
 
Thank you very much for your suggestions, aProgDirector. I have passed them on to our dean. In response to some of the points you made:

A couple of suggestions:

1. First, I'm not certain I understand why a medical school has to have no grades. I could imagine that the reason could be the following:

A. Grades create competition, and the school is trying to create a spirit of cooperation.
B. Grades don't really measure medical school performance well, and a portfolio is a better way of doing so.
C. The school believes that once someone's performance is "satisfactory", they do not want to report any more than that because that information can be misused. For example, there is no real reason that students going into dermatology have to be at the top of their class, other than medical schools report this and programs decide to use it.

Reason A is not true, IMHO. It might be true depending on how the school does it's grading, but many schools give those students who help others learn higher grades, and that alone would drive people to help each other.

Reason B is possible, but that assumes that a portfolio is a better way to assess performance, and that some way of reporting that in your application is possible.

Reason C is unrealistic. Programs have to decide whom they want based on something. If schools do not report any sense of how well a student has done, then we will use something else -- like USMLE's.
I would say that CCLCM doesn't gave grades for a combination of reasons A and B.

Concerning reason A: Like Ludiculo, I have never heard of a school grading students based on how well they facilitate other students' learning. Maybe you are referring to schools that grade their PBL sessions? If so, I don't agree that grading PBL does anything to encourage students to help one another. If anything, getting grades would probably make PBL stressful to the point that it would interfere with group function.

Concerning reason B: Our whole system is predicated on the idea that a portfolio evaluates the students' performance better than grades do. Even though a designation of H/HP/P is not given, the end-of-rotation evaluations compile the comments from all of the individual evaluations given by multiple attendings and residents, which gives a detailed picture of student performance.

IMO, relying on clinical grades only creates a different set of problems. Particularly for the clinical rotations, there is a significant degree of subjectivity in grading. Some attendings may refuse to give anyone honors, while others may give it to everyone. Also, the rotation director may not write any specific comments to justify the grade that was given. Thus, it might be difficult to interpret what a clinical grade means in terms of actual student performance.

2. If a school wants to make a portfolio evaluation system work, then I agree I'd need to see some of that portfolio. This is where things get tricky, and demonstrates the difference between a portfolio and a transcript. In a transcript, I get to see all of your grades. In an artist's portfolio, they get to show me only what they want -- a sampling of their best work. This allows students to bury any problems / concerns raised.
I should have clarified before that even if a student wanted to cherry-pick the best individual evaluations, it would not be possible to do that with the rotation evaluations. In addition, one of our competencies is reflective practice, which requires us to address weaknesses along with developing a plan to improve them. It would not be acceptable for a student to claim that there is no area where improvement is needed.

So, here's what I would want:

1. I don't need anything from the first two years. I'll use your step 1 score to measure that. Of course, if you would have done really well in a graded environment and then you botch you step 1, I would never know and assume the Step 1 is accurate. The opposite is also true, so this could work both for and against you.
True. This is a risk that students who attend any school with P/F grading during the first two years have to be willing to accept.

2. All of your third year evaluations, verbatim. No editing, no selective selection of statements. Yes, this means that there will be some negative / contructive criticism statements in there. That's life.

3. Same for a Sub I.
You and I are on the same page here. My thought was that the students should print and submit all of our end-of-rotation evaluations, or at least the evaluations that are relevant for that specialty. Again, it is not possible to print our evaluations with only the positive comments.

4. Honestly, some sense of how well you've done compared to your peers. I don't need a class rank. I do think it's reasonable to know whether you're in the top, middle, or bottom third (or top, middle two, or bottom quartile -- or any other reasonable system).
This is one of your suggestions that I passed on to our dean, since the deans would have to provide this information.

Honestly, I'm open to new ways of doing things and I think that a portfolio evaluation for medical school is completely reasonable. It's just that some summary of your portfolio needs to be in your MSPE, rather than the statement that "it's been reviewed, and is acceptable".
I agree with you here. My assumption was that our end-of-rotation evaluations and/or the promotions committee's evaluation would be quoted in our Dean's letter, and I was surprised to read in your post that they are not. I gave this suggestion to the dean as well.

Thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions.
 
I don't know what grades are if they aren't relative.
 
My school was pass/fail for the first two years, but then they slipped in a little cheat-we had end of the year comprehensive exams that they could stratify us with according to score for the purposes of AOA. I don't think I knew about that bit of info ahead of time, but I don't know if it was info that was withheld or I just missed the announcement. The clinical years were Honors/high pass/pass/fail, so that was more easily reported. Based on the clinical years, and possibly on the comprehensive exam scores (I no longer remember) we then got one of five adjectives for our deans letter, but I don't know if they passed along the code (outstanding for top fifth of the class for example)
 
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