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A lot of schools use their own proprietary course materials. They are more clinically oriented than undergrad and for the most part less mechanistically detailed.
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Path to competitive residencies....
Started by coolnad17
A lot of schools use their own proprietary course materials. They are more clinically oriented than undergrad and for the most part less mechanistically detailed.
How would working as an editor for your school's medical-literary journal be perceived by residency directors? Good EC?
Your data:
"Some program directors may give preference to applicants who graduated from a research-intensive medical school."
I can say almost anything "may" work. They have no statistically significant data in the study, and they admit so.
Being ridiculously good looking like me may also help people match well. 😀
Why would a residency director NOT care about the prestige of the student's medical school? By definition, residency directors should care (or it's not really "prestige," is it?).
High school valedictorians are more likely to end up in Ivy league schools than non-valedictorians. You could try to argue that the reason behind this phenomenon is the fact that valedictorians are more likely to apply to Ivy league schools, but there's a reason for that as well: they are self-selective and know they have a better shot than most people. It'd be ridiculous to say high school valedictorians are given no advantage for being #1 in their class. It's also ridiculous to think that those who have proven themselves to be part of an elite group of medical students are not given any advantage in the residency selection process.
Also,
http://journals.lww.com/academicmed..._Criteria_for_Residency__Results_of_a.24.aspx
See table 2 - med school reputation is a factor, and it's almost as important as AOA (and in general, seen as more important than pre-clinical grades, senior grades in other electives, and research experience). You can click on Table 3 to see how important med school rep is for the most competitive specialties (rank #7 for radiation oncology, above the number of clerkship honors!).
High school valedictorians are more likely to end up in Ivy league schools than non-valedictorians. You could try to argue that the reason behind this phenomenon is the fact that valedictorians are more likely to apply to Ivy league schools, but there's a reason for that as well: they are self-selective and know they have a better shot than most people. It'd be ridiculous to say high school valedictorians are given no advantage for being #1 in their class. It's also ridiculous to think that those who have proven themselves to be part of an elite group of medical students are not given any advantage in the residency selection process.
Also,
http://journals.lww.com/academicmed..._Criteria_for_Residency__Results_of_a.24.aspx
See table 2 - med school reputation is a factor, and it's almost as important as AOA (and in general, seen as more important than pre-clinical grades, senior grades in other electives, and research experience). You can click on Table 3 to see how important med school rep is for the most competitive specialties (rank #7 for radiation oncology, above the number of clerkship honors!).
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Being high school valedictorian is comparable to getting AOA or being ranked in your school's top quartile. I thought this whole discussion was about the value of the reputation of a school. Shouldn't you be comparing more prestigious high schools vs. less prestigious high schools?
Maybe I should have quoted TexasPhysician's logic that I was arguing against...
I'll edit.
In that paper, your med school reputation is the 9th most important thing they looked at - which makes it of VERY LITTLE importance in my opinion. There are so many things that OBJECTIVELY evaluate a student, that there is little reason that SUBJECTIVE opinions on schools schould matter.
The reason a school's reputation would matter:
1. If the school is heavy on research, it obviously would give more weight to students involved in research (who are usually from top NIH schools).
2. Some residency programs pride themselves in sending their graduates into academia and NIH schools are much more likely to do this. If your goal isn't academia, don't go to these places.
For those worried that a state school can't get you into a Top 25 residency spot, my roommate and I got interviews at 5 of the 6 non-texas residencies we applied to including Vanderbilt, Emory, Harvard, UPENN, and Johns Hopkins. Both of us matched our #1 choice.
My school had 5 people apply Derm and all 5 matched - 1 at Cornell.
A non-ranked school didn't hold us back at all.
I bet if you went to a higher ranked school, more people would have applied to Derm, and more people would have matched.
#9 is clearly not insignificant considering AOA is #9, publications is #13, and research experience is #14.
Also, objective measures do not always outweigh subjective measures (and the line between "objective" and "subjective" is not that clear either - are awards subjective or objective? What about grades at a school that is known for grade inflation? Having a Nobel Prize, being a Rhodes Scholar, or having a first author Nature publication are all pretty subjective, but would probably weigh pretty heavily).
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You're just being obtuse at this point. You know that's not the quote I meant.
"Radiation Oncology had the highest percentage of matched U.S. seniors who were graduates of a medical school with the highest NIH funding. Plastic Surgery, Dermatology, Neurological Surgery, and Transitional Year also had higher percentages of matched applicants from those schools compared to the other specialties. For all specialties except Internal Medicine/Pediatrics and Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, smaller percentages of seniors who did not match to their preferred specialty were graduates of a medical school with the highest NIH funding compared to seniors who matched."
End
Of
Story.
"Radiation Oncology had the highest percentage of matched U.S. seniors who were graduates of a medical school with the highest NIH funding. Plastic Surgery, Dermatology, Neurological Surgery, and Transitional Year also had higher percentages of matched applicants from those schools compared to the other specialties. For all specialties except Internal Medicine/Pediatrics and Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, smaller percentages of seniors who did not match to their preferred specialty were graduates of a medical school with the highest NIH funding compared to seniors who matched."
End
Of
Story.
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That's the data they use to base the statement I mentioned. They don't give numbers, so I'm assuming it is statistically not significant or there would be a paper on this.
AOA is not significant because many schools don't participate in AOA, including many Ivy programs. You can't discredit students if they aren't AOA because many schools don't have the organization. I really doubt residency programs keep up with every school that does/doesn't. Your grades = AOA or not so they just look at grades.
Publications/research isn't important at 90% of community programs. Research is VERY variable depending on the program. Places like Stanford (in my residency) that like churning out papers almost require publications. On the other hand, few residents at Vanderbilt (in my residency) did research. Vanderbilt was volume-based. They wanted hard working students that learn very quickly. If you want to do research there, they have fellowships set aside, but they were very clear that research was not a goal of their residents. A community program my friend applied to mentioned that no one did research there in 3 years (faculty or resident).
Thanks for all your responses guys.
For all of you who have already matched...or are on your way to matching to some competitive residencies (TexasPhysician, etc), how did you guys get there? What did you guys do other than your good grades and USMLE scores? If you don't mind sharing, that is. Any stats are welcome, if you're comfortable posting.
Thanks again.
For all of you who have already matched...or are on your way to matching to some competitive residencies (TexasPhysician, etc), how did you guys get there? What did you guys do other than your good grades and USMLE scores? If you don't mind sharing, that is. Any stats are welcome, if you're comfortable posting.
Thanks again.
That's a pretty big assumption... In any case, the numbers are what they are.
I was at an event tonight where the residency directors and department chairs of most of the top programs in my field were at. There's a pretty big connection between research and top programs in many fields. I think in the more research oriented fields it'll be a big advantage to be involved in research, if only because all of those programs value it and are at events. I spoke with chairmen from UCSF, Stanford, MGH, MSK/NYP, etc... I probably saw 1000 posters during this convention and 95% of the US ones were from top 25 schools.
I was at an event tonight where the residency directors and department chairs of most of the top programs in my field were at. There's a pretty big connection between research and top programs in many fields. I think in the more research oriented fields it'll be a big advantage to be involved in research, if only because all of those programs value it and are at events. I spoke with chairmen from UCSF, Stanford, MGH, MSK/NYP, etc... I probably saw 1000 posters during this convention and 95% of the US ones were from top 25 schools.
0) Decide early on that you want to apply for a competitive specialty so that you strive to ace Step 1 and your clerkship grades.
1) Rock USMLE Step 1 (visit http://www.matchapplicants.com for unofficial program-specific stats in competitive specialties). If you don't rock it, you can improve with your Step 2 score, but this will only help marginally.
2) Try to do as well as you can during third year clerkships, especially on medicine and surgery. Aim to be in the first quartile of your class, but being in the top half of your class is also acceptable.
3) Research during summer in b/w first and second yrs. For bonus points, you can also do research later on if you so desire. Try to get something out of it...pubs, abstracts, posters, etc...and of course a LOR (see 5)
4) Tons of leadership in extracurriculars...bonus points if you can secure regional or national positions (this can help secure more awards, see 9). Try to figure out what you might want to specialize in early on, then target extracurricular activities that are related to your future specialty which you can then write about in your personal statement (see 6)
5) Strong letters of rec...from research mentor, etc.
6) Interesting personal statement that will focus on what makes you unique and committed to your specialty and make the program director want to meet you
7) 1-2 away electives, preferably in the dept of the program director
8) Gather any awards you can if possible (AOA, humanism awards, etc.)...though it's not the end of the world if you don't get AOA
9) Apply REALLY broadly (as many as 40+ programs for some competitive specialties...consult your program director or mentor if necessary). Express interest during interview season by e-mailing program directors if you don't get interviews at first.
10) Reread everything listed above in 9 again.
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how about your grades during med school? like ur classes and such.
I have a question:
I really want to get into the IM or Rad residency program in my undergrad university but I will be away at another University doing my MD.
What should I do beside getting Good grades/high USMLE scores (stuff mention above) to make sure I get this residency spot?
I am thinking during the breaks (winter/summer) email the director to see if I can shadow but what else can I do?
Any resident/medstudent feel free to comment 😀
I really want to get into the IM or Rad residency program in my undergrad university but I will be away at another University doing my MD.
What should I do beside getting Good grades/high USMLE scores (stuff mention above) to make sure I get this residency spot?
I am thinking during the breaks (winter/summer) email the director to see if I can shadow but what else can I do?
Any resident/medstudent feel free to comment 😀
Thanks, very very helpful.
Grades in first two yrs don't count for much...and it's pass/fail in many schools. But theoretically, if you do well on these you will do better on Step 1.
Grades in third yr was covered in (2). This year can make or break you. You don't have to honor everything under the sun, but obviously the more the better (for first quartile or AOA). It's ok if you only pass on some clerkships, but try to at least average high passes (which would place you in the second quartile of your class).
Grades in fourth yr don't count for anything. Unless you did bad on medicine and want to improve on it during your sub-internship or want to impress other programs on away electives as covered in (7).
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i see i see. heh i guess this could mean that if i just put in enough efford to barely pass the first 2 years i can have enough time during those years for some ECs like research and such?
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Yup! That was my plan at least. I went crazy w/ the extracurriculars. But remember, you still have to put in enough effort to rock the USMLE Step 1. And you essentially have only ONE shot to take this (unlike the SAT's and MCAT's)...so yah...no pressure tho! If you bomb this, then that may close off doors in the future.
That I can agree with. Most students at state schools don't want to do research and it hurts them. We have plenty of research available, but everyone here avoids it like the plague. The one student I know at my school that failed to match ortho didn't do any research or even get an ortho LOR to my knowledge.
Do away rotations there during MSIV. Let them know then that it is your top choice.
Try to do research there during the summer between MSI-II.
Normally I don't think awards count for much, but if you have a lot (or just a really big award), it will stand out. I was asked about my awards multiple times during interview season.
I don't think this is a good plan...ECs besides research are not important for residency. You shouldn't have to choose between doing well in school and doing research.
I 100% disagree with this.
Yeah some of the top rads programs have 100% AOA for their entering classes...
It's a joke for someone to first claim that your medical school doesn't matter and then to say AOA doesn't matter. Yeah okay, Harvard doesn't have AOA, but so what.
AOA is clearly going to benefit your residency application. As far as medical-school affiliation is concerned, it makes sense that interviewers and PD's will be a little impressed with a candidate from a strong school. I don't think that going to an unranked school will hurt you per se, but it's unlikely to "propel you forward" in the interview process like a degree from Hopkins, Penn or Harvard would.
And with other EC's, it seems like a lot of medical schools take EC's into account when deciding who will receive junior AOA, so they could indirectly affect your residency application even if programs don't care about them.
And with other EC's, it seems like a lot of medical schools take EC's into account when deciding who will receive junior AOA, so they could indirectly affect your residency application even if programs don't care about them.
Yes, that sums it up nicely.
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While EC's may not be as important as your Step 1 and grades for getting through the initial screening process, they help to distinguish you from others who have identical Step 1 and grades (from working on the admissions committee at my medical school, there are TONS of people whose apps look identical!). EC's provide good fodder for your personal statement. They also come up a lot during your interview conversations. And as someone already mentioned, many schools use leadership in extracurriculars as one of many criterion for AOA consideration.
I just think run of the mill ECs aren't going to matter. No one is going to care that you volunteered at a free clinic or were a member or leader of the derm interest group...
Depending on your specialty maybe global health experience will be important, I know for rads it's about step, aoa, research, where you go to school, who you know and what they think about you. the last three tend to go hand in hand though...
But would they not accept someone from Harvard that graduated with all honors because he/she doesn't have AOA?
AOA is an easy way to look at a student and KNOW they got mostly honors in rotations. It is the grades that mostly matter to get AOA. Class rank and Grades are listed higher on Program Director's minds because they can be compared across all candidates.
AOA can't hurt for sure.
According to the publication above (from program directors themselves), AOA and med school attended are the 8th and 9th in order of importance our of something like only 13 criteria. Not very important.
I mean aoa is a proxy for grades at some schools but is qualitative at others, in any case, when you look at the nrmp #s about % aoa in a specialty, it gives you an idea of what grades are necessary, again, what jbz said holds true. You can either accept that harvard and Yale will give you an implicit advantage despite not having aoa, or not, you can't have it both ways. What if someone from hms had 1 hp and 5 honors? 2 and 4? You don't know how they'll rank in their class, so you go with the fact that their hms degree is an implcit evaluation of the caliber of student they are.
Also, for those to continue to say that your med school has no effect, take a look at http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf page 20. You can also take a look at page 19 for AOA.
Take a close look at the most competitive specialties (derm, plastics, neurosurg, rad onc). I'm also sure if you were to look at top programs in each specialty (even less competitive ones), you would see a similar trend.
Take a close look at the most competitive specialties (derm, plastics, neurosurg, rad onc). I'm also sure if you were to look at top programs in each specialty (even less competitive ones), you would see a similar trend.
Thanks, this is very very helpful!!! especially when I don't know much about medical school except that I got into one.
One more question, what did you med students do during your winter breaks?
Winter breaks are at most 2 weeks, which should be spent relaxing outside of school.
Summer before m1
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Just out of curiosity, have you matched yet drizzt? I get the feeling you're one of those Plastic/Derm/Rads/Ophtho/Ortho residents at MGH or something.
drizzt is much more baller than i thought if he managed to match in his second year 😎
Harvard doesn't have AOA so they probably would.
👍
according to the link above, 87 of the 134 who matched into rad onc in 2009 did not have AOA (if im reading it right
). doesn't that support that AOA is not *that* signifigant? 😕
👍
according to the link above, 87 of the 134 who matched into rad onc in 2009 did not have AOA (if im reading it right
Rads isn't rad onc. I'm also only talking about the top programs. Also the #s you quoted are probably also biased towards top programs also, meaning many if not all the top programs will have their 2-3 ppl all aoa.
Agreed. Do well regardless of what school you go to.
My residency program director had been in the biz long enough to see plenty of students from prestigous schools suck, fail, and be a-holes, while plenty of students from non-prestigous schools, DO, Carib, and FMG become successful (and likable) pathologists.
In the end some people simply decide that the name on the diploma is a very poor predictor of future performance.
Never said Rad Onc was Rads. i was just using Rad Onc as an example because I thought it was pretty competitive. Doesn't matter tho, you can go through every specialty in that link and see how many of the people who matched were AOA or not.
I didn't realize we were talking about top programs. My bad. I thought we were simply talking about matching into competitive residencies.
and "probably"? isnt there anything more concrete than "probably"?
I agree with TexasPhysisan, you can match into any specialty without AOA (if that's what he is saying anyway
). Is there a ranking for residency programs? Or are top programs based on hearsay/word of mouth?
The only time I've heard staff joke in the open about incoming residents was when one of them was from Harvard. "We're going to need to babysit a pretentious Harvard grad?"
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