Path to starting wet lab with an MD?

[deleted1193855]

I am interested in pursuing an md, not an mdphd because not as competitive. But i also love wet lab basic science research and would love to start my own lab as well . without the phd, what are options to do this? Would it be doing a research fellowship? Phd after residency? Thanks

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

There's tons of MD researchers without special qualifications tbh. Just do research if you like it and pursue academic jobs with a higher % of time dedicated to research.

 

[deleted1193855]

There's tons of MD researchers without special qualifications tbh. Just do research if you like it and pursue academic jobs with a higher % of time dedicated to research.

Yes but im more interested in starting my own wet lab , so would I do the postdoc/ training after residency in order to be eligible for grants/ starting lab?

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

I doubt it. The head of research at the cancer center of my university is a plain old MD who didn't do much research til fellowship.

 

[deleted1193855]

I doubt it. The head of research at the cancer center of my university is a plain old MD who didn't do much research til fellowship.

So dont you mean yesit is possible to?

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

I'm saying I don't think you need a fellowship or whatever. You can just go do research if you like it. Hardly anyone doing an MD wants to do wet lab so surely there's people who would be excited to have you as a trainee and you can start a lab with that experience later.

 

[eteshoe]

Yes but im more interested in starting my own wet lab , so would I do the postdoc/ training after residency in order to be eligible for grants/ starting lab?

Honestly in this day and age you will need to do a postdoc (2-3 years) to actually have the time to generate data for early career grants. usually that would be tacked onto your fellowship component and likely would need to start out as an instructor at whatever institution to get funding. The nice thing though is that you will still be able to generate some clinical revenue to keep yourself going until those grants come through. So to recap - almost certainly will need a postdoc - likely time period: end of fellowship / instructor years (usually 1-2 year gigs)

 

[deleted1193855]

Honestly in this day and age you will need to do a postdoc (2-3 years) to actually have the time to generate data for early career grants. usually that would be tacked onto your fellowship component and likely would need to start out as an instructor at whatever institution to get funding. The nice thing though is that you will still be able to generate some clinical revenue to keep yourself going until those grants come through. So to recap - almost certainly will need a postdoc - likely time period: end of fellowship / instructor years (usually 1-2 year gigs)

Got it thanks, as long as i have a way to start a wet lab w an md im fine. is there stuff i can do after residency as well to set me up?

 

[deleted1193855]

Honestly in this day and age you will need to do a postdoc (2-3 years) to actually have the time to generate data for early career grants. usually that would be tacked onto your fellowship component and likely would need to start out as an instructor at whatever institution to get funding. The nice thing though is that you will still be able to generate some clinical revenue to keep yourself going until those grants come through. So to recap - almost certainly will need a postdoc - likely time period: end of fellowship / instructor years (usually 1-2 year gigs)

I'm saying I don't think you need a fellowship or whatever. You can just go do research if you like it. Hardly anyone doing an MD wants to do wet lab so surely there's people who would be excited to have you as a trainee and you can start a lab with that experience later.

great sounds good

 

[Mr.Smile12]

blows dust

Research as an MD without a PhD

What opportunities are there for research as an MD (either with a PhD or without a PhD)? In previous threads about this, it has sounded as if one must become a faculty member at a medical school or university to participate in medical research. What are some other types of research...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Otherwise it's similar to any PhD who has to set up their own wet lab.

A guide to setting up and managing a lab at a research-intensive institution - PMC

Postdocs who land faculty jobs at research-intensive institutions need to juggle several new large-scale tasks: identifying space and equipment needs for their lab, negotiating the hiring package, outfitting the lab with supplies, building a team, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/STROKEAHA.121.035333

Challenges for the MD Physician-Scientist Upon Entering the Lab: From the Grand to the Practical

Abstract. Physicians who seek to become laboratory-based physician-scientists, especially those without a PhD degree, face substantial challenges during th

academic.oup.com

 

[deleted1193855]

blows dust

Research as an MD without a PhD

What opportunities are there for research as an MD (either with a PhD or without a PhD)? In previous threads about this, it has sounded as if one must become a faculty member at a medical school or university to participate in medical research. What are some other types of research...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Otherwise it's similar to any PhD who has to set up their own wet lab.

A guide to setting up and managing a lab at a research-intensive institution - PMC

Postdocs who land faculty jobs at research-intensive institutions need to juggle several new large-scale tasks: identifying space and equipment needs for their lab, negotiating the hiring package, outfitting the lab with supplies, building a team, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/STROKEAHA.121.035333

Challenges for the MD Physician-Scientist Upon Entering the Lab: From the Grand to the Practical

Abstract. Physicians who seek to become laboratory-based physician-scientists, especially those without a PhD degree, face substantial challenges during th

academic.oup.com

sorry what is meant by blows dust? so it can still be done right?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

sorry what is meant by blows dust? so it can still be done right?

Look at the date of that SDN thread. Like blowing dust off a book hidden in the deepest recesses of the library stacks. 🙂

(It's also a signal to tell other people hiding in the stacks that you're there... before the days of motion-controlled lights. IYKYK.)

 

[eteshoe]

Got it thanks, as long as i have a way to start a wet lab w an md im fine. is there stuff i can do after residency as well to set me up?

Not sure what you mean by your question

 

[deleted1193855]

Not sure what you mean by your question

i mean like what would i specifically need to do beyond postdoc to be avle to start own lab

 

[eteshoe]

i mean like what would i specifically need to do beyond postdoc to be avle to start own lab

Postdoc at a high-powered lab, develop expertise in something that's worth opening a lab for. Then apply for every grant you can think of (and your mentor). It may be helpful to start out as a junior faculty member within a more senior faculty member's lab. Honestly if you're this gung ho about research, I'd plan for a research year during med school to develop some wet lab skills. If you have specific questions DM me.

 

[deleted1193855]

Postdoc at a high-powered lab, develop expertise in something that's worth opening a lab for. Then apply for every grant you can think of (and your mentor). It may be helpful to start out as a junior faculty member within a more senior faculty member's lab. Honestly if you're this gung ho about research, I'd plan for a research year during med school to develop some wet lab skills. If you have specific questions DM me.

thanks ill dm u

 

[Goro]

i mean like what would i specifically need to do beyond postdoc to be avle to start own lab

Have a grant in hand
Have a solid publication record
Have a research venue that matches the ad for the position

 

[deleted1193855]

Have a grant in hand
Have a solid publication location record
Have a research venue that matches the ad for the position

hey thanks, what do u mean by a publication location record?

 

[Goro]

hey thanks, what do u mean by a publication location record?

Delete "location"

 

[JAK2-STAT3]

Hey, I'm a med student who had a heavy wet lab background before medical school, so I get where you're coming from. Have you gotten into medical school yet? If not, the steps are

1. Get into medical school
2. Figure out how to be a good medical student, ie make sure you can do well on tests
3. Start doing research
4. Scope out research options for summer of M1. This could be either at your home institution or an outside institution
5. Work with faculty mentors to achieve your specific research goals (pubs, conferences, etc.) throughout the rest of medical school
6. If you still want to do wet lab research as an M3/M4, work with your research mentors to identify residencies that align with your goals

I'm assuming you already have a good answer for "why not a PhD only" and a good reason for wanting the MD. If you know you want the MD, I strongly suggest seeing what medical school is like before worrying about doing wet lab research as an MD. I get that you're trying to plan ahead, but interests can and do change once medicine becomes your day-to-day reality and not just a far-fetched dream.

I started medical school loving wet lab research, but I realized that I liked clinical medicine more and now I have zero desire to work in a lab again. It might be completely different for you, but you really need to get into medical school first.

 

[deleted1193855]

Hey, I'm a med student who had a heavy wet lab background before medical school, so I get where you're coming from. Have you gotten into medical school yet? If not, the steps are

1. Get into medical school
2. Figure out how to be a good medical student, ie make sure you can do well on tests
3. Start doing research
4. Scope out research options for summer of M1. This could be either at your home institution or an outside institution
5. Work with faculty mentors to achieve your specific research goals (pubs, conferences, etc.) throughout the rest of medical school
6. If you still want to do wet lab research as an M3/M4, work with your research mentors to identify residencies that align with your goals

I'm assuming you already have a good answer for "why not a PhD only" and a good reason for wanting the MD. If you know you want the MD, I strongly suggest seeing what medical school is like before worrying about doing wet lab research as an MD. I get that you're trying to plan ahead, but interests can and do change once medicine becomes your day-to-day reality and not just a far-fetched dream.

I started medical school loving wet lab research, but I realized that I liked clinical medicine more and now I have zero desire to work in a lab again. It might be completely different for you, but you really need to get into medical school first.

thanks for the response. yeah i agree i just am the type to plan really far ahead, lol. but just trying to see my options really

 

[mistafab]

If your goal is to be primarily a scientist, MD is not required and I would advise against it.

For the physician scientist route there is a most-traveled path:
1. get involved in research early and often
2. Go to med school
3. Do research while in med school. Get lots of pubs. Do as well in med school as possible. The better you do, the better you match, and the better the odds of high powered research.
4. Go to a residency program, either straight residency or go into a residency/research slot
5. Get as much protected research time in residency as humanely possible.
----- at this point, there are many routes. Many people have burned out from research here but some continue the forward slog.
6. After residency, go straight into a grant (likely a T32 grant) and do research full time as a research fellow (post doc)
----- at this point, many people will just flow into academia and do a mix of clinical work, teaching, research. It is rare to continue on full time research. It would be "failing up" in that you would do less research and get paid more. This is also a time that pharma may reach out for you to do full time research work for them.
7. Amass enough success in research that you are competitive for a K award (rare)
8. Take your K award into an R01 (super rare)
9. Bon voyage, you are a full-fledged god among men - a physician scientist with solid grant money and a lab. You're like 40 and your career just started. You and your family can finally afford groceries (somewhat joking). Your 20 year old toyota can finally be replaced.

It is hard to do wet lab research as an MD unless you are willing to stop caring for patients primarily. You pretty much can't do steps 6 and beyond unless you are full time research. The long and short of it, is that you will need lots of dedicated research time to be a wet lab researcher in the MD route. Any time towards research will pull away clinical time for patients.

As the folks above have said - research doesn't happen in any meangful way without grants. Thus, the pathway to getting a grant-funded lab is a slog, and takes a lot of dedication, persistance, and possibly blind luck.

Good luck.

 

[deleted1193855]

If your goal is to be primarily a scientist, MD is not required and I would advise against it.

For the physician scientist route there is a most-traveled path:
1. get involved in research early and often
2. Go to med school
3. Do research while in med school. Get lots of pubs. Do as well in med school as possible. The better you do, the better you match, and the better the odds of high powered research.
4. Go to a residency program, either straight residency or go into a residency/research slot
5. Get as much protected research time in residency as humanely possible.
----- at this point, there are many routes. Many people have burned out from research here but some continue the forward slog.
6. After residency, go straight into a grant (likely a T32 grant) and do research full time as a research fellow (post doc)
----- at this point, many people will just flow into academia and do a mix of clinical work, teaching, research. It is rare to continue on full time research. It would be "failing up" in that you would do less research and get paid more. This is also a time that pharma may reach out for you to do full time research work for them.
7. Amass enough success in research that you are competitive for a K award (rare)
8. Take your K award into an R01 (super rare)
9. Bon voyage, you are a full-fledged god among men - a physician scientist with solid grant money and a lab. You're like 40 and your career just started. You and your family can finally afford groceries (somewhat joking). Your 20 year old toyota can finally be replaced.

It is hard to do wet lab research as an MD unless you are willing to stop caring for patients primarily. You pretty much can't do steps 6 and beyond unless you are full time research. The long and short of it, is that you will need lots of dedicated research time to be a wet lab researcher in the MD route. Any time towards research will pull away clinical time for patients.

As the folks above have said - research doesn't happen in any meangful way without grants. Thus, the pathway to getting a grant-funded lab is a slog, and takes a lot of dedication, persistance, and possibly blind luck.

Good luck.

then isnt it hard for even phds to get those grants?? so if its hard to practice and run a wet lab, do most have to choose btw one?

 

[deleted1193855]

If your goal is to be primarily a scientist, MD is not required and I would advise against it.

For the physician scientist route there is a most-traveled path:
1. get involved in research early and often
2. Go to med school
3. Do research while in med school. Get lots of pubs. Do as well in med school as possible. The better you do, the better you match, and the better the odds of high powered research.
4. Go to a residency program, either straight residency or go into a residency/research slot
5. Get as much protected research time in residency as humanely possible.
----- at this point, there are many routes. Many people have burned out from research here but some continue the forward slog.
6. After residency, go straight into a grant (likely a T32 grant) and do research full time as a research fellow (post doc)
----- at this point, many people will just flow into academia and do a mix of clinical work, teaching, research. It is rare to continue on full time research. It would be "failing up" in that you would do less research and get paid more. This is also a time that pharma may reach out for you to do full time research work for them.
7. Amass enough success in research that you are competitive for a K award (rare)
8. Take your K award into an R01 (super rare)
9. Bon voyage, you are a full-fledged god among men - a physician scientist with solid grant money and a lab. You're like 40 and your career just started. You and your family can finally afford groceries (somewhat joking). Your 20 year old toyota can finally be replaced.

It is hard to do wet lab research as an MD unless you are willing to stop caring for patients primarily. You pretty much can't do steps 6 and beyond unless you are full time research. The long and short of it, is that you will need lots of dedicated research time to be a wet lab researcher in the MD route. Any time towards research will pull away clinical time for patients.

As the folks above have said - research doesn't happen in any meangful way without grants. Thus, the pathway to getting a grant-funded lab is a slog, and takes a lot of dedication, persistance, and possibly blind luck.

Good luck.

what would be the path to getting phd after / during residency? would i still need postdoc/faculty