Pathology vs. Lab Animal Residency

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Sami_21

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Hi,

I'm a 3rd-year vet student and am on the fence about pursuing a pathology or lab animal residency. Can someone who has done either please give their opinion on the application process, the program as a whole, and their experience? What were boards like? Did you go in straight after graduation or work GP for a few years?
I'm considering the following programs:
UGA, Emory, UC Davis, Illinois, and UF

Many thanks in advance from a confused and anxious student worried about the next 1.5 year 🙃

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Pathology is outside of the match and internships are not required, so the application process is fairly straightforward. Positions get posted on the ACVP and ASVCP websites in the fall (August-ish), you send in a letter of intent, CV, transcripts, and letters of rec. Programs review, and make offers to applicants until positions get filled. Most offers are in Sept to Oct. Grades are important, but path is a very small field, so your experiences in the field and letters of recommendation are probably more important, imo.

Boards are difficult. Pass rates have been higher the last six to ten years or so than before, but it’s a lot to learn. I think pass rates are about 75% with the current test. There is a shared general pathology section shared between anatomic and clinical residents. It’s heavy molecular bio/biochem pathways and physiology. You take that usually during spring (March) of your second year. Then anatomic and clinical each have separate discipline-specific exams you take in August after your third year is complete. you have to pass the gen path phase 1 before sitting the second exam. I’m a clinical pathologist so idk what exactly is on the anatomic boards, but our clin path specific test has 300 questions including data interpretation, test recommendations, descriptions, lab procedures, and knowledge. I had to evaluate, interpret, and write up a set number of cases within a time limit back in my day and your reports were scored for accuracy. I believe they did away with that actual microscopic portion with Covid and just made it part of the questions, but that was after my time.

In any ways, it’s going to be far easier to get a residency right out of school because you’ll probably have better connections with pathologists for LORs. Clinical pathology does value clinical experience, whether that is a rotating internship or time in practice, but it’s not absolutely required. Anatomic seems to prefer fresh graduates and doesn’t put as much emphasis on clinical practice from my semi-outsider impressions.

Residency and boards prep is not fun. It’s long days and even longer times at home reading tons of material and doing a lot of self-teaching. It’s stressful and you’re underpaid. I do absolutely enjoy my job as a clinical pathologist in diagnostics and I do think it was worth it, but I certainly wouldn’t want to go back and do it all again at this point.

My questions I’d ask someone considering a path residency would be…why do you want to be a pathologist? I think sometimes people consider the field because they know they don’t like clinical practice and it seems like an obvious alternative. Which I understand, but it’s hard being chained to a microscope days on end unless it’s something you truly enjoy. So while a dislike for practice may be common amongst path people, it shouldn’t be your only motivating factor. I’m not saying it is for you by any means, but just make sure you’ve shadowed some pathologists and really enjoy the work or you’ll end up burned out and hating your job.
 
Thank you so much for your insight on the application process and residency in general. I don't mind clinical practice (why I'm also thinking lab animal med), I just like pathology more. I enjoy doing the detective work and learning about different disease processes, plus you tend to see a lot of species variety. I have more anatomic experience, but I'm open to clin path. I've heard anatomic path residencies are more beneficial if you want to also get a phD, which I do not. Is that accurate? It also seems like there are more job opportunities/growth in clin path. Do you mind sharing how you decided to go clin path and pick a program? Since path residencies are not part of matching, is there more freedom to choose or are there still consequences for dropping out like in matching?

I'm a non-traditional student, so I have financial concerns about not paying student debt right away. There typically isn't a tuition for residency programs, correct? I understand in any residency, the pay will not be like working at GP. Another reason why I asked about starting residency right after graduation is because I'd like to start a family soon. Did you have classmates start families while in residency? It feels like a lot and I'd worry about health/safety.

Thank you 😊
 
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There are definitely clin path residencies that have associated graduate degrees. I’d say current trends in clin path tend towards no graduate degree or just doing a masters, but PhD programs do exist. Clin path in academia often has more clinical track/non-research heavy positions, where in anatomic path, it’s more expected for people to be tenure track and utilize that PhD. So when you say “anatomic path residencies are more beneficial if you want to also get a phD”, I don’t think that’s true…I’d just say that there’s a little more expectation/push to get a PhD if you go anatomic, but even then you don’t have to and there are programs that don’t require it.

As for job opportunities…I think they’re pretty equal. There are more anatomic positions in the world than clinical, but there are also more anatomic residents each year. With both fields, your options are to work in diagnostics for a commercial lab, do academia, or enter industry like pre-clinical drug development path at a research organization like Charles River. It’s not too difficult to find a job in the current market, but there also aren’t tons of vacancies either. Our supply of residents has equaled opportunities pretty well for years now. There is a bit of trepidation about what AI will do to pathology and jobs in the next decade, but it’s inevitable and imo we’ll just have to embrace it and deal with it.

I always knew I wanted to do clin path and never considered anatomic. I started working in a clin path lab as an undergrad and they brainwashed me over the years. I knew I enjoyed cytology and bloodwork interpretation. I don’t mind necropsy, but it’s not my favorite thing. I chose programs by eliminating ones that required advanced degrees, talking to mentors about places they thought trained residents well, and then a bit by location (limiting myself to the south/midwest because I do not enjoy large cities).

Not being in the match is a double edged sword. On one hand, it should give you more freedom to have multiple offers and let you choose what is best for you. But in reality since there are no set dates, if a program you like but don’t love offers you a spot first, you have to decide right then (like within a week) whether to take that offer because it’s available or to decline and hope you get a better offer somewhere else. I received an offer I liked early on, and when I contacted other programs I had applied to, they hadn’t even started reviewing apps yet and weren’t going to do so before I had to give my answer to offer #1, so I chose to just accept the first option even if it wasn’t my first choice. There’s a loose gentleman’s agreement amongst path programs not to force a decision until a set date so applicants can get multiple offers and decide what’s best for them, but not all places comply with that. Some try to offer early and snipe their first choice. There aren’t consequences for dropping out like in the match. But still, path is a small field and word gets around, so if you drop out but try to pursue the field later on, you may get questions.

My program didn’t have any required courses. I believe for most that do require class work for graduate degrees, expenses are covered. You make some money but not a lot. My salary in 2016-19 was 35k. I think there’s been some improvement, but you’re still talking like 25-33% of what you might make in practice. Your income will be low enough that you won’t have to pay much if anything at all on loans if you enter income based repayment. I paid maybe $100/mo all during residency. Then when I finished and had a “real” job, I hammered them and paid them off quickly.

There are residents who do have families or become pregnant during residency. It certainly isn’t easy. I will say that I feel like clin path is probably the easiest specialty to physically do while pregnant because we sit most of the day at microscopes but don’t have to worry about things like formalin for APs, radiation for radiology, and our exposure to infectious agents is fairly minimal by the time samples are processed and presented to us. But it still wouldn’t be easy to balance childbearing or childrearing with a more-than-full-time job. We did cases from 8-5 and I’ll admit that we had more free time than the residents in clinical specialties like surgery and IM and ER, but there’s so much prep and studying that needs done in the evenings I don’t know how parents do it. I think it’s much more common to hold off and then have children in the year or two (or more!) after residency.
 
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Hello, lab animal vet here. Most lab animal residencies are posted through the match, though there are a couple that are outside of the match.

Residency programs tend to fall into a couple of categories: research focused vs clinical focused. The research focused programs tend to be longer (3-5 years) and often have a degree as part of the program (MS or PhD). They tend to have a small component of clinical medicine (~1 year) and then you join a research lab for the remainder of the program. Clinical focused programs can be shorter (2-3 years typically) and generally are more focused on clinical medicine with a small portion of time dedicated to completing a (typically clinically focused) research project.

Because of the deadlines and the requirements to sit for boards, most people who pursue board certification through the training program (residency) route will graduate from their residency program and sit for boards the following year. So you will be studying for boards during your first "real" lab animal vet job essentially.

Lab animal residencies don't typically require (or necessarily even prefer) any sort of internship or GP experience prior to entering, most enter straight from vet school.

Happy to answer any other questions you may have about the field. I'm the externship coordinator for the lab animal externship/rotation at the University of Minnesota (and we have a stipend available for visiting students!), we also have a residency program here as well. Feel free to send me a message or can continue on this thread.
 
Hello, lab animal vet here. Most lab animal residencies are posted through the match, though there are a couple that are outside of the match.

Residency programs tend to fall into a couple of categories: research focused vs clinical focused. The research focused programs tend to be longer (3-5 years) and often have a degree as part of the program (MS or PhD). They tend to have a small component of clinical medicine (~1 year) and then you join a research lab for the remainder of the program. Clinical focused programs can be shorter (2-3 years typically) and generally are more focused on clinical medicine with a small portion of time dedicated to completing a (typically clinically focused) research project.

Because of the deadlines and the requirements to sit for boards, most people who pursue board certification through the training program (residency) route will graduate from their residency program and sit for boards the following year. So you will be studying for boards during your first "real" lab animal vet job essentially.

Lab animal residencies don't typically require (or necessarily even prefer) any sort of internship or GP experience prior to entering, most enter straight from vet school.

Happy to answer any other questions you may have about the field. I'm the externship coordinator for the lab animal externship/rotation at the University of Minnesota (and we have a stipend available for visiting students!), we also have a residency program here as well. Feel free to send me a message or can continue on this thread.
I would love to hear about your experience working in the field and what it was like doing the match. I just finished doing an externship at a primate center and I feel like I enjoyed more of the clinical aspect of it than the research.
 
There are definitely clin path residencies that have associated graduate degrees. I’d say current trends in clin path tend towards no graduate degree or just doing a masters, but PhD programs do exist. Clin path in academia often has more clinical track/non-research heavy positions, where in anatomic path, it’s more expected for people to be tenure track and utilize that PhD. So when you say “anatomic path residencies are more beneficial if you want to also get a phD”, I don’t think that’s true…I’d just say that there’s a little more expectation/push to get a PhD if you go anatomic, but even then you don’t have to and there are programs that don’t require it.

As for job opportunities…I think they’re pretty equal. There are more anatomic positions in the world than clinical, but there are also more anatomic residents each year. With both fields, your options are to work in diagnostics for a commercial lab, do academia, or enter industry like pre-clinical drug development path at a research organization like Charles River. It’s not too difficult to find a job in the current market, but there also aren’t tons of vacancies either. Our supply of residents has equaled opportunities pretty well for years now. There is a bit of trepidation about what AI will do to pathology and jobs in the next decade, but it’s inevitable and imo we’ll just have to embrace it and deal with it.

I always knew I wanted to do clin path and never considered anatomic. I started working in a clin path lab as an undergrad and they brainwashed me over the years. I knew I enjoyed cytology and bloodwork interpretation. I don’t mind necropsy, but it’s not my favorite thing. I chose programs by eliminating ones that required advanced degrees, talking to mentors about places they thought trained residents well, and then a bit by location (limiting myself to the south/midwest because I do not enjoy large cities).

Not being in the match is a double edged sword. On one hand, it should give you more freedom to have multiple offers and let you choose what is best for you. But in reality since there are no set dates, if a program you like but don’t love offers you a spot first, you have to decide right then (like within a week) whether to take that offer because it’s available or to decline and hope you get a better offer somewhere else. I received an offer I liked early on, and when I contacted other programs I had applied to, they hadn’t even started reviewing apps yet and weren’t going to do so before I had to give my answer to offer #1, so I chose to just accept the first option even if it wasn’t my first choice. There’s a loose gentleman’s agreement amongst path programs not to force a decision until a set date so applicants can get multiple offers and decide what’s best for them, but not all places comply with that. Some try to offer early and snipe their first choice. There aren’t consequences for dropping out like in the match. But still, path is a small field and word gets around, so if you drop out but try to pursue the field later on, you may get questions.

My program didn’t have any required courses. I believe for most that do require class work for graduate degrees, expenses are covered. You make some money but not a lot. My salary in 2016-19 was 35k. I think there’s been some improvement, but you’re still talking like 25-33% of what you might make in practice. Your income will be low enough that you won’t have to pay much if anything at all on loans if you enter income based repayment. I paid maybe $100/mo all during residency. Then when I finished and had a “real” job, I hammered them and paid them off quickly.

There are residents who do have families or become pregnant during residency. It certainly isn’t easy. I will say that I feel like clin path is probably the easiest specialty to physically do while pregnant because we sit most of the day at microscopes but don’t have to worry about things like formalin for APs, radiation for radiology, and our exposure to infectious agents is fairly minimal by the time samples are processed and presented to us. But it still wouldn’t be easy to balance childbearing or childrearing with a more-than-full-time job. We did cases from 8-5 and I’ll admit that we had more free time than the residents in clinical specialties like surgery and IM and ER, but there’s so much prep and studying that needs done in the evenings I don’t know how parents do it. I think it’s much more common to hold off and then have children in the year or two (or more!) after residency.
I understand that most pathology programs do not do the match, but do most applications open around the same time or have similar deadlines? I know that with matching you have to go where you match. Is there backlash if you decline a path program or is there an option to defer? I enjoy both anatomic and clin path, do you think it would be viewed badly if I applied to both programs?
 
I’m not 100% sure for anatomic path (I think they’re the same but I could be wrong?), but for clin path, programs get posted on ACVP and the ASVCP pages and open for apps in July and August-ish. Usually decisions are mid October-ish right before ACVP conference. I knew before Halloween where I was going (back in 2015) and I think it’s slightly earlier nowadays. Programs to begin in July 2025 will begin to be posted very soon.

If you apply and get multiple offers and ultimately choose another program, that’s normal. If you accept a position, then decline it weeks to months later, that probably wouldn’t be looked upon favorably. There isn’t a formal penalty like in the match where you’re not allowed to reapply for three years or whatever that rule is, but keep in mind that this is a VERY small field and word gets around. There may not be immediate backlash but if you’re looking for a job in three or four years people will remember. You’d better have a good reason if you are going to renege on an offer. I haven't heard of people deferring…not saying it hasn’t ever happened or is impossible. That stuff would be totally up to the school since there’s no real governing body…places I have been at would probably not have considered a deferral, they’d have just said reapply next year. Maybe if we knew you really really well and loved you it would be considered but not for most people.

I think it would be fairly difficult to be competitive for both programs the same year. You’ll be competing against people who are 100% dedicated to one type and it may look “wishy washy” if you haven’t really decided on one. You’d probably need to have two completely separate letters of intent and letters of rec from different pathologists in those fields which is a lot of extra work. With that said, some people do get double boarded and do both, but I’d probably recommend you do your best to pick the one you like more. The jobs have similarities yes, but they’re also different. You’re talking about your job for the rest of your life…so make sure it’s the one you really like.
 
For AP, there has historically been a supposed "gentlemen's agreement" that decisions/offers will be made in late November/early December and applications will be accepted until that date (I believe the date quoted is December 1). However, nobody really follows that and most programs have their people picked out FAR earlier than that and offers can come in at different times, so I would have apps in ASAP. Do not wait. If they have who they want, it doesn't matter whose app comes in after. As Jayna said, declining if you have multiple offers is totally fine. But yes, accepting and then declining, while there is no formal penalty that I am aware of, might hurt chances down the line because yes...its a small specialty and word gets around. I have not heard of deferrals being common at all, or if they even exist...I agree that you would be told to apply next year.
 
I would love to hear about your experience working in the field and what it was like doing the match. I just finished doing an externship at a primate center and I feel like I enjoyed more of the clinical aspect of it than the research.
I worked in biomedical research between undergrad and vet school and went into vet school knowing I wanted to do lab animal med. Before I graduated undergrad though I did not even realize this was a field that existed. During vet school I participated in clubs, did ASLAP summer fellowship and a bunch of lab animal externships, and matched to a residency program at UIC. I think doing externships was really the key to truly learning about the various programs and how they differ and really guided my decisions on where to apply. The written program descriptions can only get you so far. The match was fine, I think it took some of the stress off because I just ranked my programs in the order I wanted to attend them and let the algorithm do its thing. It also worked out for me because I ended up matching at my top choice.

My day as a lab animal vet varies a lot by the day, week, month, time of year, etc. I spend a lot of time reviewing IACUC protocols and reading emails and attending meetings when my clinical caseload is quiet. But when its busy I can be doing dental extractions, running anesthesia, collecting diagnostics, reviewing records, performing surgery, etc all day. Clinical stuff has a huge variety as well depending on the areas of research your institution is doing, what the species and demographics of the animals are, whether you're dealing with spontaneous vs induced diseases, etc. For example, in my current area we have some geriatric macaques that develop things like spontaneous diabetes that needs management or dental disease that needs routine care. I also cover an area that has a lot of ferrets that they don't need terminally so I help spay them so they can get adopted out after the end of their study. There's also a lot of imaging with very big fancy MRIs that I might help run anesthesia for.

Happy to talk more in depth, feel free to message me if you want to chat more about lab animal! (to the above poster but also anyone else who might be interested in joining the field)
 
Hi,
I hope all is well and that everyone is safe from the hurricane. I wanted to give a life update and say I got an interview for a pathology residency! I am interviewing for 2 positions- wildlife focus and generalized anatomic pathology. I'm nervous, but I would appreciate any and all advice/tips for interviewing.

Thank you!
 
Best advice I can give is to present yourself as a teammate that anyone would love to have. Be friendly, enthusiastic, etc - your grades and extracurriculars and all that are only part of the equation, the other large part is are you going to be a good person to work with.

Also make sure you are very familiar with the particular strengths of the programs, and have a "self-plan" that you are comfortable talking about for your time there - i.e. I want to accomplish XYZ at this residency because of its focus on ABC, and this is how I would go about it.
 
Thank you for all the advice. Unfortunately, I did not get into a residency. Now trying to figure life out with the rejection and news
 
I didn’t get one in my first attempt either. It’s not uncommon, though it is disappointing. If it’s something you truly want to pursue, try again! Hopefully you’ll find something great, whether that’s just for a year until you can try again or if it means a bit of a career shift.
 
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