Patient in a vegetative state

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Silverish

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Dad goes into a coma.
Wife says keep him intubated.
Children say he has always said he never wanted to be on tubes for life support.
What do you do?
 
OP, what are the answer options?
Why don't you follow what the wife says since the patient is in a coma and (assuming) there is no legal documentation stating his wishes?
I think it's the wife in this case unless you have some actual documentation of the patient's wishes.
 
One part of you is saying listen to the wife - she's next of kin.
One part of you is saying listen to the kids - they're saying the patient wouldn't want intubation.
Definite answer coming soon from my professor. Stay tuned.
 
You have no proof of patient wishes in a writteb and legally defensible form. You default to wishes of highest order relative which is spouse
 
You have no proof of patient wishes in a writteb and legally defensible form. You default to wishes of highest order relative which is spouse
The question here is about patient's wishes.
Kids are saying what the patient actually said he wanted.
Wife is saying what the patient would have wanted.
People usually confuse it as Kid's wishes v/s Wife's wishes.
But it's Patient's wishes v/s Wife's wishes.
Yes it would be ideal to have a living will/POA etc but you have to make use of what's available and just like consent you don't need a legal document.
This is how it is for Step 1 purposes but in real like it's more complicated than that.
 
His kids are telling what his wishes were.
What patient wished trumps all proxies.
How do you know that what the kids are saying is true? In that case, what's to keep a friend or even a coworker or loose acquaintance from overriding the wife's wishes by saying the same thing?
 
How do you know that what the kids are saying is true? In that case, what's to keep a friend or even a coworker or loose acquaintance from overriding the wife's wishes by saying the same thing?

Again, it's the patients wishes which counts and not the wife's or children or anyone else.
You have to make a distinction between these two and decide based on what the patient wanted. In other words your job is to find out what patient wanted. If that is not available then you go with the proxies like wife who will tell what the patient would have wanted.
In the world of USMLE everyone tells the truth.
 
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Again, it's the patients wishes which counts and not the wife's or children or anyone else.
You have to make a distinction between these two and decide based on what the patient wanted. In other words your job is to find out what patient wanted. If that is not available then you go with the proxies like wife who will tell what the patient would have wanted.
In the world of USMLE everyone tells the truth.
Nope
 
Again, it's the patients wishes which counts and not the wife's or children or anyone else.
You have to make a distinction between these two and decide based on what the patient wanted. In other words your job is to find out what patient wanted. If that is not available then you go with the proxies like wife who will tell what the patient would have wanted.
In the world of USMLE everyone tells the truth.

You're really, really wrong. In the absence of legal documents the spouse comes next. While the spouse may then try to figure out what the patient would've wanted, they ultimately have the final say.
 
The question here is about patient's wishes.
Kids are saying what the patient actually said he wanted.
Wife is saying what the patient would have wanted.
People usually confuse it as Kid's wishes v/s Wife's wishes.
But it's Patient's wishes v/s Wife's wishes.
Yes it would be ideal to have a living will/POA etc but you have to make use of what's available and just like consent you don't need a legal document.
This is how it is for Step 1 purposes but in real like it's more complicated than that.
Kids are saying what the patient actually said he wanted
Oh really? What if kids just want to get a huge load of money as inheritance?
 
You're really, really wrong. In the absence of legal documents the spouse comes next. While the spouse may then try to figure out what the patient would've wanted, they ultimately have the final say.

According to Dr Steven R. Daugherty (Kaplan Lecture Notes):

If you cannot talk directly with the patient, use one of the three principles in this order:
1. Subjective standard (advance directive)
2. Substituted judgment
3. Best-interest standard

1. Subjective Standard (Advance Directive)
What has the patient said in the past?
• Oral or written statements are the same.
• Decision expressed to you or to someone else is the same.
• If multiple statements have been made by the patient, the most recent statement prevails.

2. Substituted judgment
Someone who knows the patient offers a best guess about what the patient would want.
• Consider the people presented and decide who is best to guess patient's wishes.
• Next of kin is not the issue, rather, who can best guess the patient's wishes.
• Next of kin often will be among the best people to guess.
• But knowledge of the patient, not blood relationship, is the determining issue.
• Example: Karen Ann Quinlan case.
• Note that this is not about what the patient said to someone. If that occurred, it would be back to the subjective standard.

3. Best- Interest Standard
What would most patients in this situation want?

To summarize, children are conveying the Advance Directive while wife is using Substituted judgment.
 
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To summarize, children are conveying the Advance Directive while wife is using Substituted judgment.

I will concede here and defer to you. I was answering based on my real life practice experience, which is of course messier than any test questions or review course. As you said, on the test people always tell the truth. In real life people definitely lie for their own gain, but bringing that up may not be appropriate for this particular sub forum. I'll stay quiet and avoid muddying the theoretical waters in the future!
 
I will concede here and defer to you. I was answering based on my real life practice experience, which is of course messier than any test questions or review course. As you said, on the test people always tell the truth. In real life people definitely lie for their own gain, but bringing that up may not be appropriate for this particular sub forum. I'll stay quiet and avoid muddying the theoretical waters in the future!
I don't care, I'm not unplugging anyone against spouse's orders without some signed advanced directives.....they'll have to live till shift change 😉
 
Guys, here's the answer my professor has given to the above situation:

Keep him alive.
Unless it is written down it is not an advance directive.
The proxy/surrogate is supposedly the person who should know best. In reality, urge a family conference.


So, in such a situation, without written advanced directive - follow the "next of kin" approach and/or "encourage the family to communicate with each other"
 
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Guys, here's the answer my professor has given to the above situation:
Keep him alive.
Unless it is written down it is not an advance directive.
The proxy/surrogate is supposedly the person who should know best. In reality, urge a family conference.

So, in such a situation, without written advanced directive - follow the "next of kin" approach and/or "encourage the family to communicate with each other"
huzzah! we win, @22031 Alum
 
I will concede here and defer to you. I was answering based on my real life practice experience, which is of course messier than any test questions or review course. As you said, on the test people always tell the truth. In real life people definitely lie for their own gain, but bringing that up may not be appropriate for this particular sub forum. I'll stay quiet and avoid muddying the theoretical waters in the future!
Agree that in real like it's more complicated but this is how it is for USMLE Step 1 purposes.
 
Luckily I just finished kaplan behavioral science with 2010 videos by Steven daughtery a few days ago. Came across this post, and the first idea that crossed my mind was: "Haven't all these guys here watched daughtery's videos? If they did, this question wouldn't have come up in the first place."
I completely agree with what Transposony has written.
And incase kaplan's text isn't very clear about this, daughtery's videos are. He explained this concept so nicely it's crystal clear. This is an absolute case of "Substituted judgement" & you will go with what the kids are saying. I am not going to explain further. I have given my reference above. Nothing can explain this concept better than daughtery himself.
The answer is, do what the kids are saying.
This is not a case of advance directive so explanations provided about it aren't valid.
Another thing, according to daughtery, what happens in the real world has absolutely nothing to do with what happens in the world of Usmle.
 
Another thing, according to daughtery, what happens in the real world has absolutely nothing to do with what happens in the world of Usmle
I'm assuming you're just referring to the behavioral questions. What about 99% of the rest of the exam?
Also, as per the doctor/professor that gave the question, that is the wrong move. I'll stick to with what I've been taught.
 
Luckily I just finished kaplan behavioral science with 2010 videos by Steven daughtery a few days ago. Came across this post, and the first idea that crossed my mind was: "Haven't all these guys here watched daughtery's videos? If they did, this question wouldn't have come up in the first place."
I completely agree with what Transposony has written.
And incase kaplan's text isn't very clear about this, daughtery's videos are. He explained this concept so nicely it's crystal clear. This is an absolute case of "Substituted judgement" & you will go with what the kids are saying. I am not going to explain further. I have given my reference above. Nothing can explain this concept better than daughtery himself.
The answer is, do what the kids are saying.
This is not a case of advance directive so explanations provided about it aren't valid.
Another thing, according to daughtery, what happens in the real world has absolutely nothing to do with what happens in the world of Usmle.

Believe it or not, some of us were already practicing physicians by the time those videos were made. So no, never watched them. Never even heard of them. But as I already said, the "Step 1 answer" is right on this subforum, if not in the real world.
 
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