Pay For Junior Doctors

[Llenroc]

---

Members do not see this ad.

My Dad did his residency and fellowship in the early 1990's. I'm in medical school in Ohio right now.

I was looking at some residency programs' websites that show the pay, and most of them are paying less than what my Dad was making over 10 years ago. Of course, this was in New York, and there are some adjustments for location, but overall I expected pay to be about $50,000 in most places, but it seems to be moreso on the order of $30,000. That's practically living on the poverty level.

What do people think about this? There seems to have been little increase in residency pay in the last decade. 👎

EDIT: Let me throw in there that I understand that residency is a "training" job with certain costs involved like supervision and training. But junior doctors generate a lot of cash for hospitals. And the share of the generated income that they see is very small, probably even less than what is was in the past, because the hospitals are definitely taking in more cash now than 10 years ago.

 

[MoosePilot]

My Dad did his residency and fellowship in the early 1990's. I'm in medical school in Ohio right now.

I was looking at some residency programs' websites that show the pay, and most of them are paying less than what my Dad was making over 10 years ago. Of course, this was in New York, and there are some adjustments for location, but overall I expected pay to be about $50,000 in most places, but it seems to be moreso on the order of $30,000. That's practically living on the poverty level.

Yeah, that's practically living on the poverty level - if you have 7 people in your family already. Poor planning for a resident....

You're out of touch. I bet it's nice to be a doctor's kid.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/04poverty.shtml

 

[Llenroc]

Yeah, that's practically living on the poverty level - if you have 7 people in your family already. Poor planning for a resident....

You're out of touch. I bet it's nice to be a doctor's kid.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/04poverty.shtml

Relax, I didn't say you would be poor according to U.S. government definitions, or living in the housing projects or whatever. I was just making a qualitative statement based on the facts. Our living standard 12 years ago when my Dad was a junior doctor was pretty bad. I didn't grow up rich so stop making bad judgements about my financial position. Given the increase in costs from that time, it does not seem that resident's salaries have increased much to cover them. At the very least, they have not kept up pace with general increases in compensation from various professions across the board, and even with increases in compensation from various jobs in the health care field.

A lot of people graduate from medical school married with a wife and one or more kids. That and they also have substantial loans to pay off from undergrad and medical school. Factor all that in, and you likely could be living at close to the poverty level, given your actual amount of disposable cash after necessary expenses. $30,000 may seem like all the money in the world to you - perhaps enough to buy a BMW - but after taxes, rent, paying for your families expenses, student loans, food, etc. there probably won't be much left.

 

[Mirror Form]

My Dad did his residency and fellowship in the early 1990's. I'm in medical school in Ohio right now.

I was looking at some residency programs' websites that show the pay, and most of them are paying less than what my Dad was making over 10 years ago. Of course, this was in New York, and there are some adjustments for location, but overall I expected pay to be about $50,000 in most places, but it seems to be moreso on the order of $30,000. That's practically living on the poverty level.

What do people think about this? There seems to have been little increase in residency pay in the last decade. 👎

EDIT: Let me throw in there that I understand that residency is a "training" job with certain costs involved like supervision and training. But junior doctors generate a lot of cash for hospitals. And the share of the generated income that they see is very small, probably even less than what is was in the past, because the hospitals are definitely taking in more cash now than 10 years ago.

Yeah, we all know that residents get screwed for pay considering the hours they work. But it's part of training and is only temporary. If it's really a major problem, you can do residency in a place with a low cost of living.

 

[doc05]

there aren't many programs paying 30k these days. in cheap areas (eg the south), pay starts around 35-36k. In NYC, pgy-1's start around 43-44k. Not great, but you'll survive.

 

[MoosePilot]

Relax, I didn't say you would be poor according to U.S. government definitions, or living in the housing projects or whatever. I was just making a qualitative statement based on the facts. Our living standard 12 years ago when my Dad was a junior doctor was pretty bad. I didn't grow up rich so stop making bad judgements about my financial position. Given the increase in costs from that time, it does not seem that resident's salaries have increased much to cover them. At the very least, they have not kept up pace with general increases in compensation from various professions across the board, and even with increases in compensation from various jobs in the health care field.

A lot of people graduate from medical school married with a wife and one or more kids. That and they also have substantial loans to pay off from undergrad and medical school. Factor all that in, and you likely could be living at close to the poverty level, given your actual amount of disposable cash after necessary expenses. $30,000 may seem like all the money in the world to you - perhaps enough to buy a BMW - but after taxes, rent, paying for your families expenses, student loans, food, etc. there probably won't be much left.

I'm totally relaxed. I know exactly how far 30K stretches. I started at a lower salary than that and have worked up to my current salary. It's good money. You can own a new car (I bought a Chevy Cavalier at the time, which was more reliable at the time than the current models, or so I've heard). I rented a three bedrooom house (admittedly this was in an extremely low cost of living area). My wife and I lived well.

You didn't say according to government definitions explicitly, but when you bring up "poverty level", that's what the term refers to. 30K is nowhere near the poverty level on an objective standard, or in my subjective experience. Your expectations may be the problem. Given the little data I had on you, your experience as a doctor's child seemed the most likely to cause those expectations.

Even if you only get 30K, you'll be fine.

 

[radonc]

we arent called junior doctors...either doctors, physicians, residents, but not junior doctors...

 

[ortho2003]

My Dad did his residency and fellowship in the early 1990's. I'm in medical school in Ohio right now.

I was looking at some residency programs' websites that show the pay, and most of them are paying less than what my Dad was making over 10 years ago. Of course, this was in New York, and there are some adjustments for location, but overall I expected pay to be about $50,000 in most places, but it seems to be moreso on the order of $30,000. That's practically living on the poverty level.

What do people think about this? There seems to have been little increase in residency pay in the last decade. 👎

EDIT: Let me throw in there that I understand that residency is a "training" job with certain costs involved like supervision and training. But junior doctors generate a lot of cash for hospitals. And the share of the generated income that they see is very small, probably even less than what is was in the past, because the hospitals are definitely taking in more cash now than 10 years ago.

my sister-in-law started residency in '93 making 26-27K and finished making 29K. I started in '03 making 37K and will finish making around 43K. That is more than keeping up with inflation.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

My Dad did his residency and fellowship in the early 1990's. I'm in medical school in Ohio right now.

I was looking at some residency programs' websites that show the pay, and most of them are paying less than what my Dad was making over 10 years ago. Of course, this was in New York, and there are some adjustments for location, but overall I expected pay to be about $50,000 in most places, but it seems to be moreso on the order of $30,000. That's practically living on the poverty level.

What do people think about this? There seems to have been little increase in residency pay in the last decade. 👎

EDIT: Let me throw in there that I understand that residency is a "training" job with certain costs involved like supervision and training. But junior doctors generate a lot of cash for hospitals. And the share of the generated income that they see is very small, probably even less than what is was in the past, because the hospitals are definitely taking in more cash now than 10 years ago.

The pay and educational debt is a double-edged sword. If you had to take money out to go to medical school, I'll give you my story as an example: I took out over 100K and I thought that would be enough to defer throughout all 5 years of residency (I make about $2,500 a month with taxes taken out.) I got a miniscule raise when I was promoted from a PGY-1 to a PGY-2 which put me slightly over the limit for what is considered economic hardship in my state; therefore, as a PGY-2 in surgery with >$110,000 in debt, I either had to declare forbearance or start paying back my loans. Forbearance is not the end of the world; you still don't have to pay anything back at the present time; it just means that your entire subsidized and unsubsidized loans are accruing interest. Nice. 🙁

Long (and frusterating) story short, try to be a bit more financially astute as a student than I was. Talk to a financial planner, figure out if the state where you want to pursue residency will give you a salary that will put you over the limit of economic hardship, taking into consideration your status (are you single/ married, dependants, etc.?- I am single) Moreso, if you are a premed who knows you will need to take out several thousands in loans, think long and hard about how bad you really want medicine; this is a ball and chain that will be tied to me for YEARS. I'd join the military if I could; unfortunately, I have a past surgical history of my own that would preclude doing so.

On the other had, to the OP, if you are single, resident salary (which for me is ~2,500/month tax taken) is more than enough to live as long as you are not living in CA or NY.

good luck

 

[radonc]

i would suggest playing the lottery every day in hopes to pay off your debt and then live the life of luxury while training and practicing! im still waiting for my lucky numbers to pop-up... 🙁

 

[MoosePilot]

I'd join the military if I could; unfortunately, I have a past surgical history of my own that would preclude doing so.

The military takes your time in place of the money they give you. If I wasn't dedicated to being in the military, I wouldn't even consider that option. It's a poor tradeoff, really.

 

[skypilot]

The pay and educational debt is a double-edged sword. If you had to take money out to go to medical school, I'll give you my story as an example: I took out over 100K and I thought that would be enough to defer throughout all 5 years of residency (I make about $2,500 a month with taxes taken out.) I got a miniscule raise when I was promoted from a PGY-1 to a PGY-2 which put me slightly over the limit for what is considered economic hardship in my state; therefore, as a PGY-2 in surgery with >$110,000 in debt, I either had to declare forbearance or start paying back my loans. Forbearance is not the end of the world; you still don't have to pay anything back at the present time; it just means that your entire subsidized and unsubsidized loans are accruing interest. Nice. 🙁

good luck

You are in better financial shape than most new graduates. Even if you accrue interest for a few years you will only have about $150k in debt when you start making serious money as an attending.

You could scrimp and try to pay interest only (about $400 per month) on your loans to keep your debt at $110k.

 

[Diane L. Evans]

Try getting into a residency that allows you to moonlight thus you will get $ to pay off your loans while in residency. IUPUI has an OB program that allows moonlighting the 2nd year. With the 80 hr requirement most programs are NOT allowing moonlighting. Second consider the NHSC they pay $30-40K per yr on your loans (2 yr min requirement) and $160-180 on top of that.
Good luck
D
PS #'s are for OB

 

[Goober]

My Pgy 1 salary was about 31k. It was very easy to live on. In fact my living situation significantly improved from when I was a medical student when I lived very cheap. I did not defer my loans either, I started paying them right away.

Of course being the child of a physician you probably are use to a higher standard of living.

 

[Apollyon]

As a prelim in NYC, I made $42300, lived in Forest Hills, and went to Tahiti. In NC, I'm at $36K this year, and bought a BMW (used, but still, it's CPO and not a "starter model"), and still eat every day.

 

[Dr Who]

According to Llenroc that's poverty???........
I wish I was that poor

 

[yaah]

My salary is about 38k per year (plus a 7% bonus which doesn't count as part of the 38k) as a PGY-1, and we have a house officer union here that negotiated a salary increase.

Currently, my take home pay $2440 per month. It's adequate for living - mortgage about 1100 per month. I'm not buying big screen tvs every month but I don't starve. A lot of it depends on loans too - if you have money going to loan payments every month it soaks some up.

Different programs have different benefits. Some provide free health insurance, parking, meals, whatever, so your salary doesn't include these things. With benefits your salary may work out to about $50k per year. Some programs depending on location will give you a living stipend (like San Fran programs giving you an extra $4k per year that is not in your actual salary).

$40k per year is apparently the national average, so it's far from poverty.

 

[cytoborg]

$40k per year is apparently the national average, so it's far from poverty.

I guess that depends on where you live. $40k doesn't go very far in most major metropolitan areas where over half one's salary goes to rent. That said, the OP stated he is in Ohio...methinks $40k would be a pretty decent standard of living there.

 

[MoosePilot]

I guess that depends on where you live. $40k doesn't go very far in most major metropolitan areas where over half one's salary goes to rent. That said, the OP stated he is in Ohio...methinks $40k would be a pretty decent standard of living there.

I live in Tacoma. You can get by. Remember this isn't a lifetime salary level, but a student worker salary level.

 

[NinerNiner999]

I got a miniscule raise when I was promoted from a PGY-1 to a PGY-2 which put me slightly over the limit for what is considered economic hardship in my state; therefore, as a PGY-2 in surgery with >$110,000 in debt, I either had to declare forbearance or start paying back my loans.

Foxxy - Having just consolidated, I hope you weren't taken by your lender. There is a federal law (not state-dependent) that uses the 10-year payoff rate on your loan as the amount to qualify for economic hardship (even if you have a 30-year term). Assuming you have $110k of principle, and even if your rate is 2%, your 10 YEAR monthly payment would still be around $1000.00. Using the federal economic hardship calculation (roughly 20% of your gross income), you would have to earn $60k per year or more as a resident before you had to make payments. Check it out - you may not need Forbearance... PM me if you have questions - I hate to see people get hosed.

 

[shelly46]

hey i am an intern in california and its pretty brutal

FYI- all residents in UC programs make the same regardless if you are in irvine, san diego, LA, San fran etc.

Starting pgy-1 salary is 38100 vs most nyc hospitals that are now 46-49k.

For those in LA or SF- your rent is high and the cost of living is steep. I pay 1200/month for rent in LA - less than the 1600+ my friends pay in NYC but I need a car and the gasoline prices are ridiculous.

The $2400/month seems like a lot but after rent, car payments (i drive a civic), and $500 loan payments i am left with little cash and still have to rely on my folks so I can eat (thank god they are happy to help when needed- i feel very fortunate)

I feel for my colleagues with kids- i cant imagine trying to raise a family and not having enough to put food on the table!

 

[coconut lime]

when you guys talk about these residency salary figures, is that before or after taxes? won't they be reduced by about 25% once you figure in taxes?

 

[NinerNiner999]

Yes those figures are before taxes, but the Gross salary is used by the Fed to calculate your payment...

 

[yaah]

when you guys talk about these residency salary figures, is that before or after taxes? won't they be reduced by about 25% once you figure in taxes?

I gave you both - the 38K is before taxes, the 2440 per month is take home after taxes and deductions for parking, health insurance, and others.

 

[coconut lime]

thanks for the replies!

 

[GMO2003]

maybe I'm cheap but I still feel a pinch every month myself...I'm army and currently doing a GMO tour...I received a $15,000 MASP at the beginning and have special pay each month along with my base pay adding up to a little over $6200 after deductions...maybe I'm a miser...but I pay $1000/month for rent...I bought a $1000 junker and have a total debt monthly payment of around $1000...my wife and I are also putting away $250/month in a Roth IRA

 

[NinerNiner999]

maybe I'm cheap but I still feel a pinch every month myself...I'm army and currently doing a GMO tour...I received a $15,000 MASP at the beginning and have special pay each month along with my base pay adding up to a little over $6200 after deductions...maybe I'm a miser...but I pay $1000/month for rent...I bought a $1000 junker and have a total debt monthly payment of around $1000...my wife and I are also putting away $250/month in a Roth IRA

You feel a pinch clearing $6200 a month? Can't help you there.