PBL vs. SBL

[DaBlackRose]

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I have heard some conflicting information on both PBL (problem based learning) and SBL (systems based learning) and as someone who needs to choose between them, I'd really appreciate some reviews for people who have gone through them!

 

[DrMidlife]

I have heard some conflicting information on both PBL (problem based learning) and SBL (systems based learning) and as someone who needs to choose between them, I'd really appreciate some reviews for people who have gone through them!

You could theoretically have SBPBL - SB and PB are not always two flavors of the same thing. But they're both more objective than the traditional subjective curriculum.

A traditional curriculum presents a course in biochem followed by a big fat biochem exam, and then a course in physiology, etc. where the first year is mostly about how the body works. Then the second year, there's a course in pathology followed by a big fat exam, and then pharmacology, etc., so the second year is mostly about disease.

A systems-based curriculum is one where you study respiratory/circulatory and take a big fat exam, and then you study reproductive and then endocrine etc and you're done with the whole body in 2 years. Each system includes all the relevant biochem/immuno/physio/pathology etc. So "system" refers to a body system. When a school says it has a systems-based curriculum, it's typically not saying anything about whether you're learning in lectures or in study groups or in the forest or whatever.

Problem-based learning typically means two things: first, that the subject matter is presented as problems to solve (such as clinical presentations of illness), and second, that you're given the problems in a small group with a faculty member, with most of your time spent studying on your own instead of being taught. A school might have heavy PBL, where everything but anatomy/biochem/OPP is taught in PBL, or it might just do one subject or system in PBL. PBL has little to no overlap with a traditional subject-by-subject curriculum, and it necessarily covers the biochem/immuno/physio/etc under each clinical diagnosis, but it's not at all the same as looking at all resp/circ pathology and then looking at all repro pathology etc. If there was such a thing as systems-based PBL, you'd do all the resp/circ presentations (and take a big fat exam) and then do all the endocrine/repro etc. Take a look at LECOM's website for a description of PBL vs didactical.

You won't find a school that is purely systems-based and/or purely PBL. You'll always have subject labs and lectures.

Another thing to consider is whether classes are arranged in blocks or last all term. You could have anatomy pounded into you for 5 weeks and never see it again, or you could have anatomy last a whole year, for example.

I'll let more qualified folks weigh in on pros & cons. Best of luck to you.

 

[BCLumas]

Hey. Nice synopsis of PBL from DrMidlife, but let me see if I can give you my personal feelings on PBL as well as give you some specifics on how PBL works at LECOM-B. Hopefully that will help you out!

First of all, LECOM-Bradenton, for all of its basic medical sciences, is strictly PBL. While we do spend the first 10 (techinically, 11) weeks in a lecture-formatted Anatomy course, we are required to choose Anatomy testing issues for each case in order to make sure we keep up with the Anatomy.

A typical PBL day for me (take today, for example) consists of first waking up and getting to school early and motivated, maybe around 8:00 AM. I pull all of my books out of my locker or my suitcase, which includes everything from Anatomy to Pathology to Pharmacology to Immunology. I then sit down with a page or pages from the case (which was given to me during our previous PBL meeting) and begin to dissect out the material which I find pertinent. If it were a patient who presented with diplopia, I might take out my Physiology, Neuroanatomy, Physical Examination, and Pathology books first to see what cursory knowledge I could get about the the problem. I'd also go to my Gross Anatomy book to see what muscles could be causing the problem and possibly look in my Histology book to see what kinds of cells are found within the eye, just to know. I also might look in my Pharmacology book to see what kinds of drugs treat some of the Pathologies I found in my Pathology book (muscle relaxers, sympathomimetics, etc).

Around 1:00, my PBL class begins. We talk about any readings the group assigned from the previous meeting and then talk about the basic sciences surrounding the case. We present the information to each other, question each other, and teach each other, should the need arise. Once that material has been discussed (usually 45 - 60 mins), the last hour is spent progessing the case. This involves performing a physical examination, CBC, ABG, CT, MRI, Chem7, Urinalysis, or whatever, all with predetermined values that give you hints to the overall diagnosis of the "patient" your group is dealing with. At the end of the two hour session, more chapters are chosen, usually anywhere between 4 to 7, for the group to read over the next couple of days to discuss during the next class.

That night is spent either reviewing over old assigned readings, reading newly assigned readings, or dissecting any new papers handed out during the session so that all of the definitions are understood (i.e., PKU, Galactosemia, etc).

At the end of each case, the group decides, from the previously assigned learning issues, what chapters they should be tested on based upon which were most pertinent to understanding the case. If during the diplopia case the group read about Broca's Aphasia, but it ultimately did not pertain to the case, it probably wouldn't be a good testing issue. If, however, the group also read about Oculomotor, Abducens, and Trochlear nerve palsy, then that might be a good chapter to choose to be tested on.

Personally, I love PBL. It was the deciding factor in choosing between my acceptances last year, and it is actually a lot of fun. It can get overwhelming, especially now that Anatomy is over, but as long as you stay on top of your work, you can do well. Our tests are over anywhere from 35 to 50 chapters of reading material.

The biggest problem I am seeing in other groups (and in my group during the first couple of cases) is that they are getting hung up on solving the case rather than learning the sciences. You have to remember that this class supplements all of the other science courses you are taking during your medical school career. Instead of reading a few pages from every book, read the entire chapter in Neuroanatomy on eye movements, read the entire chapter of Physiology on how the retina transmits light, and read the entire chapter on different Pathologies of the eye. Although the case will only present (usually) with a single diagnosis, understanding that from the initial chief complaint there were several, if not dozens, of differential diagnoses that your group addressed while the case progressed.

With that said, I give PBL (at LECOM-Bradenton, at least) at 9/10. I'm still nervous about the volume of material, but overall I love this style of learning. Hopefully this was of some use to you.

Good luck.

 

[m015094]

Hey. Nice synopsis of PBL from DrMidlife, but let me see if I can give you my personal feelings on PBL as well as give you some specifics on how PBL works at LECOM-B. Hopefully that will help you out!

Thanks for the info on PBL. I've seen comments on here about "I hate PBL" or "I enjoy PBL", but I've never had a good grasp on really how it works. At LECOM, if you start the PBL tract and don't enjoy it, can you switch to LDP?

 

[nlax30]

Thanks for the info on PBL. I've seen comments on here about "I hate PBL" or "I enjoy PBL", but I've never had a good grasp on really how it works. At LECOM, if you start the PBL tract and don't enjoy it, can you switch to LDP?

Well, at the Bradenton (FL) campus we only have the PBL "tract" so there's really no switching, unless you drop out or try to transfer to the Erie campus or another school.

The Erie campus has the pathways (LDP, PBL, and Independent study), but I have no knowledge about any ability to switch for one to another.

 

[e p i c]

Hey. Nice synopsis of PBL from DrMidlife, but let me see if I can give you my personal feelings on PBL as well as give you some specifics on how PBL works at LECOM-B. Hopefully that will help you out!

First of all, LECOM-Bradenton, for all of its basic medical sciences, is strictly PBL. While we do spend the first 10 (techinically, 11) weeks in a lecture-formatted Anatomy course, we are required to choose Anatomy testing issues for each case in order to make sure we keep up with the Anatomy.

A typical PBL day for me (take today, for example) consists of first waking up and getting to school early and motivated, maybe around 8:00 AM. I pull all of my books out of my locker or my suitcase, which includes everything from Anatomy to Pathology to Pharmacology to Immunology. I then sit down with a page or pages from the case (which was given to me during our previous PBL meeting) and begin to dissect out the material which I find pertinent. If it were a patient who presented with diplopia, I might take out my Physiology, Neuroanatomy, Physical Examination, and Pathology books first to see what cursory knowledge I could get about the the problem. I'd also go to my Gross Anatomy book to see what muscles could be causing the problem and possibly look in my Histology book to see what kinds of cells are found within the eye, just to know. I also might look in my Pharmacology book to see what kinds of drugs treat some of the Pathologies I found in my Pathology book (muscle relaxers, sympathomimetics, etc).

Around 1:00, my PBL class begins. We talk about any readings the group assigned from the previous meeting and then talk about the basic sciences surrounding the case. We present the information to each other, question each other, and teach each other, should the need arise. Once that material has been discussed (usually 45 - 60 mins), the last hour is spent progessing the case. This involves performing a physical examination, CBC, ABG, CT, MRI, Chem7, Urinalysis, or whatever, all with predetermined values that give you hints to the overall diagnosis of the "patient" your group is dealing with. At the end of the two hour session, more chapters are chosen, usually anywhere between 4 to 7, for the group to read over the next couple of days to discuss during the next class.

That night is spent either reviewing over old assigned readings, reading newly assigned readings, or dissecting any new papers handed out during the session so that all of the definitions are understood (i.e., PKU, Galactosemia, etc).

At the end of each case, the group decides, from the previously assigned learning issues, what chapters they should be tested on based upon which were most pertinent to understanding the case. If during the diplopia case the group read about Broca's Aphasia, but it ultimately did not pertain to the case, it probably wouldn't be a good testing issue. If, however, the group also read about Oculomotor, Abducens, and Trochlear nerve palsy, then that might be a good chapter to choose to be tested on.

Personally, I love PBL. It was the deciding factor in choosing between my acceptances last year, and it is actually a lot of fun. It can get overwhelming, especially now that Anatomy is over, but as long as you stay on top of your work, you can do well. Our tests are over anywhere from 35 to 50 chapters of reading material.

The biggest problem I am seeing in other groups (and in my group during the first couple of cases) is that they are getting hung up on solving the case rather than learning the sciences. You have to remember that this class supplements all of the other science courses you are taking during your medical school career. Instead of reading a few pages from every book, read the entire chapter in Neuroanatomy on eye movements, read the entire chapter of Physiology on how the retina transmits light, and read the entire chapter on different Pathologies of the eye. Although the case will only present (usually) with a single diagnosis, understanding that from the initial chief complaint there were several, if not dozens, of differential diagnoses that your group addressed while the case progressed.

With that said, I give PBL (at LECOM-Bradenton, at least) at 9/10. I'm still nervous about the volume of material, but overall I love this style of learning. Hopefully this was of some use to you.

Good luck.

Thanks for that. Hmm. It sounds both motivating and intimidating.

 

[Rogerswife]

At COMP we have a systems based curriculum with the occasional PBL thrown in, and I can tell you that I really like the systems based approach, but I would go crazy if I had nothing but PBL all the time. The reason that I like the systems based approach is that even if you don't like or are not good at a specific format, like physiology or pharmacology for instance, you can still do well in the system because there are other subjects within the system. Also, for me it is just more cohesive because the things that you learn about each system pretty well interrelate with one another. The thing that I don't really like about PBL is that, unless you have a very directed facilitator, you could be discussing and researching things that have no board or even clinical relevance for you. PBL just feels too risky to me, but maybe it would be different if the whole program was formatted that way. Anyway, that's just my two cents as a second year, for what it's worth, which probably isn't much!

 

[DaBlackRose]

Wow! This is all very fascinating and helpful information. I guess the question now is, how do you know if you'll do well in a PBL system? I mean obviously college and lower I've done the 'lecture & tests' type thing.

I do pass the tests easily enough, but I can't say I really retain much information later. And in med school, I really should retain something! I did have a semester where all my classes covered practically the same topics but on different levels (like sexual dimorphism of the brain: the endocrine side, the biochem side, and the psychology side). I felt that way i really knew the material much better than otherwise.

But i don't really have anything to compare PBL to... any suggestions?

 

[Slevin]

I personally prefer ISP... and entire course in 2 weeks (did physio in 1.5 weeks finishing up biochem in 2) its awesome. No classes to go to, just you your book and slowly get a secretaries ass... oh boy is my ass getting flat... tomorrow I go for a run

 

[e p i c]

I personally prefer ISP... and entire course in 2 weeks (did physio in 1.5 weeks finishing up biochem in 2) its awesome. No classes to go to, just you your book and slowly get a secretaries ass... oh boy is my ass getting flat... tomorrow I go for a run

what's ISP and which schools have it

 

[Slevin]

what's ISP and which schools have it

The only one I know about it is LECOM- Erie. There may be others but I don't know. Check out the course description under the pathways section.

 

[LadyJane]

Does anyone know of which other schools, besides LECOM, have PBL? and, do they have PBL as a pathway? What I mean by this, is that I have heard PCOM "throws in some PBL here and there" but the PBL pathway at LECOM immerses you in only PBL (with only some lectures thrown in). Which schools do PBL like LECOM?

 

[Lisfranc]

How do you know if you would do well in a PBL curriculum? That is a very important question to ask because it is not for everyone, but if it is you will find it very rewarding. Generally, the type of person who will succeed in PBL is someone who is very self-motivated and enjoys reading over hours of lectures. By enjoying reading, I mean reading... heavily. Instead of reviewing powerpoints designed by a member of your basic science faculty, you will be going home and reading hundreds of pages out of the big books. Using the example of diplopia that the prior poster mentioned, you would want to read about the anatomy of the extraocular muscles, their embryologic development, the neuroanatomy of perhaps the frontal eye fields and what drives vision and cooridates the abduction and adduction of the eyes, and probably some Robbins pathology of lesions that may manifest as diplopia... the reading is really endless. While "doing" PBL you will develop your method of forming diffential diagnoses and treatment plans while learning the basic sciences. At LECOM-B, it tended to turn out to be somewhat systems based as well. Usually, the cases would be clumped together so that you would have a bunch of cardiovascular or gastrointestinal cases together. In the case of my class, and I believe the class behind me, we were near the top of the nation in COMLEX level 1 scores. The most important thing to consider is: how much do you like reading?

I am a graduating 4th year student, the curriculum may have changed slightly since I was on campus. Maybe a current basic science student can correct me where it is now different.

 

[nevinleiby]

Well, at the Bradenton (FL) campus we only have the PBL "tract" so there's really no switching, unless you drop out or try to transfer to the Erie campus or another school.

The Erie campus has the pathways (LDP, PBL, and Independent study), but I have no knowledge about any ability to switch for one to another.

At Erie, switching from PBL -> lecture (and maybe IDS) is possible and permitted if you aren't doing well in the program (per my question when interviewing for 2013). It was highly recommended that that decision be made earlier rather than later. I also found Lecom-E interesting because if you were on the PBL tract, you could step in one of the lectures to have something presented to you. Take that with a grain of salt though, because they are most likely at a completely different place in the process. (Hmmm...helpful for board review though? ). At Erie, it didnt seem that PBL had access to the IDS review books...they seemed like a good resource, imho...

I got the immediate impression that switching into PBL from anything else is a no-go.

 

[Slevin]

At Erie, switching from PBL -> lecture (and maybe IDS) is possible and permitted if you aren't doing well in the program (per my question when interviewing for 2013). It was highly recommended that that decision be made earlier rather than later. I also found Lecom-E interesting because if you were on the PBL tract, you could step in one of the lectures to have something presented to you. Take that with a grain of salt though, because they are most likely at a completely different place in the process. (Hmmm...helpful for board review though? ). At Erie, it didnt seem that PBL had access to the IDS review books...they seemed like a good resource, imho...

I got the immediate impression that switching into PBL from anything else is a no-go.

I have known people who switched from LDP-->PBL and from LDP-->PCSP

None of the ISP went into PBL or PCSP but that is just a personal preference because ISP likes our schedule

 

[aimee21]

Does anyone know of which other schools, besides LECOM, have PBL? and, do they have PBL as a pathway? What I mean by this, is that I have heard PCOM "throws in some PBL here and there" but the PBL pathway at LECOM immerses you in only PBL (with only some lectures thrown in). Which schools do PBL like LECOM?

Many schools now offer PBL as a pathway. Off the top of my head, I know NYCOM and UMDNJ-SOM both have PBL offerings, but I'm not familiar with all the schools. The best way to find information on an individual school is to check out their website - they'll mention it if PBL is offered. Then if you're interested in a specific school, try to find a student who is in the PBL path.

 

[DaBlackRose]

Hmm... it seems like its more of a personal preference. PBL seems to have been covered but what about Systems based vs. Didatic (traditional lecture test).

So the real question is... with systems based curriculum, do the students do better on the boards than traditional style?? Where would that information be found? Anyone know?