PCOM (great DO school) vs. TCMC (mediocre MD school) - NEED HELP!!

[BillyBob1942]

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So I have recently been accepted to both PCOM and TCMC which are both at/around the top of my list. Now I have to decide which school I want to attend. Both are great schools, but obviously PCOM is osteopathic and TCMC is allopathic.

PCOM is one of the most reputable osteopathic schools and TCMC is...well...it certainly is not a BAD school by any means, but it is fairly new and still working on getting its name out there. I want to go to the school that is going to leave me with the MOST residency options. I have no idea what I want to do as of now, but I'm interested in general surgery, orthopedics, cardiology, etc. So pretty much I definitely wanna specialize in SOMETHING, just not totally sure what. But for all I know, I may end up loving primary care. It's too early to tell...which is why I want to attend the school which will leave me the most options.

I know people used to always look down on TCMC due to their accreditation issues, but from what I understand those have been resolved and TCMC students seem to do fairly well. Both schools have very impressive match lists and both schools are very close to home. I need help making a decision! What do you guys think? Is it always better to go with MD over DO in terms of competitive residencies, or is it better to go to a very reputable DO over a not-so reputable MD?

 

[Ja3ger]

Obviously you can become a great doctor from either. I would not want to deal with any DO stigma (whether from old doctors or laymen) for the rest of my life, but that's a personal decision.

 

[alpinism]

I want to go to the school that is going to leave me with the MOST residency options.

TCMC by far.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

So I have recently been accepted to both PCOM and TCMC which are both at/around the top of my list. Now I have to decide which school I want to attend. Both are great schools, but obviously PCOM is osteopathic and TCMC is allopathic.

PCOM is one of the most reputable osteopathic schools and TCMC is...well...it certainly is not a BAD school by any means, but it is fairly new and still working on getting its name out there. I want to go to the school that is going to leave me with the MOST residency options. I have no idea what I want to do as of now, but I'm interested in general surgery, orthopedics, cardiology, etc. So pretty much I definitely wanna specialize in SOMETHING, just not totally sure what. But for all I know, I may end up loving primary care. It's too early to tell...which is why I want to attend the school which will leave me the most options.

I know people used to always look down on TCMC due to their accreditation issues, but from what I understand those have been resolved and TCMC students seem to do fairly well. Both schools have very impressive match lists and both schools are very close to home. I need help making a decision! What do you guys think? Is it always better to go with MD over DO in terms of competitive residencies, or is it better to go to a very reputable DO over a not-so reputable MD?

This is the pre allo forum and as such you're going to get VERY biased, often uninformed and rehashed viewpoints. This question probably best asked in the DO forums where they can speak more knowledgeably about PCOM's ability to get your competitive specialties like ortho (gen surg and cards shouldn't be too troublesome). Or I suppose we can wait for the DO guys who frequent this forum to show up.. Where's your heart?

 

[Syndicate]

Tcmc is a low tier MD but it's still better than any DO school IMO

 

[radsinterviewing]

I want to go to the school that is going to leave me with the MOST residency options.

If that's your main concern, the answer is obvious

 

[Microglia]

If that's your main concern, the answer is obvious

This. If the main concern is the most residency options (specialty-wise), choose MD.

My clinical mentor (top 10 allo school) is a DO, many of my personal docs have been DO's, and they are all phenomenal docs. Around the hospital, I've met DO endocrinologists, surgeons, PMR, emergency med, etc. I would never discriminate between a DO and an MD when choosing a physician.

However, there is a stigma against DO's in some residency selections and specialties that doesn't exist when you have an MD, and they are the first to admit that. If you want the easiest time at getting any specialty, choose an MD. Not that it can't be done as a DO, but it will be harder and some programs will write you off immediately.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Philadelphia > Scranton any day.

 

[radsinterviewing]

On my interviews for residency programs, I have seen only 2 DO students, and those have only been at the lower tier local programs which interview a lot of applicants over a lot of interview dates. I know a few manage to get into some top tier programs because you can look them up on the schools' websites. One of the programs I interviewed at is notorious for taking 1 every year out of their ~10 or so positions because their director is a DO. I have yet to meet a DO interviewing at any of the upper tier programs. They must be getting interviews because a few get in to some very respectable programs, but with my n=1, I have not seen them.

People commonly throw out a hypothetical question about why would a school pick an MD applicant with lower numbers than a DO applicant with higher numbers. The reality is that there are more overqualified MD applicants and DO applicants than there are spots. More often than not, I would bet that the overqualified MD applicants will get the coveted spots over the overqualified DO applicants.

 

[Jabawocky]

Anyone want to help me out? What do they call a person who graduates from a "lower tier" medical school?

 

[radsinterviewing]

Anyone want to help me out? What do they call a person who graduates from a "lower tier" medical school?

Doctor

Same as a person graduating from a DO school.

I don't think you will really appreciate the advantages of coming from an allopathic program until you begin to consider your residency options and start to apply, especially if you are considering the more competitive fields of medicine. DOs can make it too, but they must work much harder, apply more broadly, and even then a lot can't do it especially in the most competitive fields.

 

[Jabawocky]

Doctor

Darn straight they do. 👍

 

[DurgaRangoli]

I know people who go to both, go to TCMC. Congrats on the acceptances!!

 

[circulus vitios]

http://www.thecommonwealthmedical.com/ResidencyMatch

I think they did pretty well for their inaugural class. I don't think these are prestigious matches, but I look at it in terms of specialty matches: a lot of surgery and surgical subspecialties, and a rad-onc match.

edit: Compare the number of FM matches at each school (as a percentage of class size.) http://web.pcom.edu/Student_Life/Student_Affairs_Main/match_2013_phl.html Keep in mind that TCMC is a "community" or primary care oriented school while PCOM has a reputation of putting out, relative to other DO schools, a significant amount of specialty matches. If you don't want to do FM, I'd definitely pick TCMC. If you want to do FM...I'd still pick TCMC.

 

[BillyBob1942]

This is the pre allo forum and as such you're going to get VERY biased, often uninformed and rehashed viewpoints. This question probably best asked in the DO forums where they can speak more knowledgeably about PCOM's ability to get your competitive specialties like ortho (gen surg and cards shouldn't be too troublesome). Or I suppose we can wait for the DO guys who frequent this forum to show up.. Where's your heart?

That's certainly a very good point. I should probably post this in the osteopathic forum just to maybe see what osteopathic students have to say.

As for me, I'm definitely leaning a lot towards TCMC. And although I have nothing against osteopathic physicians (I was ready to go to PCOM if I didn't get into TCMC), I would much rather have an MD degree solely due to the fact that this would really expand the options I have in terms of residencies. I don't want to feel restricted or limited.

Thanks everyone for all your responses; it seems like the majority of people are all on the same boat of going to TCMC over PCOM if matching is the primary concern. But just to get some perspectives of osteopathic students, I'm going to move this thread to the osteopathic section.

Thanks everyone!!

 

[BillyBob1942]

Anyone want to help me out? What do they call a person who graduates from a "lower tier" medical school?

hahah, yeah I totally agree. There is literally no difference. In terms of physicians, there's not even really a difference between an MD or a DO doctor nowadays. I just want to make sure I don't end up feeling restricted when it's time to apply for residency.

 

[BillyBob1942]

On my interviews for residency programs, I have seen only 2 DO students, and those have only been at the lower tier local programs which interview a lot of applicants over a lot of interview dates. I know a few manage to get into some top tier programs because you can look them up on the schools' websites. One of the programs I interviewed at is notorious for taking 1 every year out of their ~10 or so positions because their director is a DO. I have yet to meet a DO interviewing at any of the upper tier programs. They must be getting interviews because a few get in to some very respectable programs, but with my n=1, I have not seen them.
People commonly throw out a hypothetical question about why would a school pick an MD applicant with lower numbers than a DO applicant with higher numbers. The reality is that there are more overqualified MD applicants and DO applicants than there are spots. More often than not, I would bet that the overqualified MD applicants will get the coveted spots over the overqualified DO applicants.

Very interesting! Thanks for this information; really helps put things in perspective.

 

[BillyBob1942]

okay so this might be a really stupid question, but I'm VERY new to SDN....how exactly can I move this thread to the osteopathic forums? Or do I have to delete it and recreate it in the osteopathic forums?

 

[Lucca]

Only mods can move entire threads but you can cross post the OP over on osteopath. Also, I know you were taking the time to respond to everyone's advice/comments and posted things at different times but it is generally considered good etiquette on forums to post only once and contain all the information you want to communicate in only one post. Again, totally not a big deal (and no one really minds on this forum i think) but just something to keep in mind while on the internet

 

[BillyBob1942]

Only mods can move entire threads but you can cross post the OP over on osteopath. Also, I know you were taking the time to respond to everyone's advice/comments and posted things at different times but it is generally considered good etiquette on forums to post only once and contain all the information you want to communicate in only one post. Again, totally not a big deal (and no one really minds on this forum i think) but just something to keep in mind while on the internet

sweet, thanks a lot. I'll post it over on the osteopathic forums too. And thanks for that tip, I actually had no idea. I'll keep that in mind from now on haha

 

[circulus vitios]

hahah, yeah I totally agree. There is literally no difference. In terms of physicians, there's not even really a difference between an MD or a DO doctor nowadays. I just want to make sure I don't end up feeling restricted when it's time to apply for residency.

It depends on what you want to. Certain specialties are highly supportive of DOs. IM, FM, peds, EM, psych, gas, ob/gyn, and PM&R are the top ACGME (MD) programs into which DOs match.

Other specialties, however, aren't supportive of DO applicants, even within their own AOA (DO) residencies. There are few AOA plastic surgery programs in the country -- something like 7, if I remember correctly -- and there are absolutely no radiation oncology programs. It's possible to match into these specialties under an ACGME program, but it's difficult. Using 2013 NRMP data for rad onc as an example, there were 134 US MD senior matches and only 2 US DO matches. Integrated plastics is worse, with 111 US MD senior matches and 0 US DO matches. Student population obviously comes into play because there are something like 5 times as many MD students as DO students, but the odds still aren't good.

You can see the data I'm talking about at this link: http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/ "Results and Data: 2013 Main Residency Match," pages 7-9.

edit: Please don't think I'm bashing DO schools. I was accepted to a DO school that I would have attended if I hadn't been accepted to an MD school. You can match ACGME rad onc, plastics, derm, etc. as a DO...it's just a lot harder, and it's already hard as hell to match into these specialties as an MD. I'm choosing an MD school because I want to minimize any career speed bumps or road blocks. Yeah, Scranton sucks but it's not unbearable and it's only for 4 years.

 

[user3]

.

 

[Instatewaiter]

It depends on what you want to. Certain specialties are highly supportive of DOs. IM, FM, peds, EM, psych, gas, ob/gyn, and PM&R are the top ACGME (MD) programs into which DOs match.
.

You should pull IM off of that list. IM at the top is very DO unfriendly.

IM is a broad field though. A potted plant could match into somewhere in IM. However, at the top, it is unforgiving. DO students don't fare too well.

 

[Jabawocky]

It depends on what you want to. Certain specialties are highly supportive of DOs. IM, FM, peds, EM, psych, gas, ob/gyn, and PM&R are the top ACGME (MD) programs into which DOs match.

Gastroenterology huh? I had an ENT tell me once that those guys wipe their rear-ends with money.

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

Gastroenterology huh? I had an ENT tell me once that those guys wipe their rear-ends with money.

I thought gastroenterology was a fellowship you do after an IM residency? I believe gas means anesthesiology. I could be wrong though, the pre-med in me isn't too familiar with SDN medical field abbreviations.

 

[circulus vitios]

Gastroenterology huh? I had an ENT tell me once that those guys wipe their rear-ends with money.

Gas = anesthesiology.

 

[alpinism]

The point is that some top IM programs won't even consider DO applicants.

 

[VolunteerMoose]

Isn't PCOM over 100 yrs old? And TCMC is like, 4 years old? If you want to stay in Penn, the choice seems obvious. Pick MD.

 

[circulus vitios]

The point is that some top IM programs won't even consider DO applicants.

Most applicants, MD or DO, aren't applying to top programs. Per NRMP data, IM is DO friendly insofar as it's one of the top fields into which DOs match.

 

[compstomper]

I worked for over a year in a clinical setting with both DO and MD physicians, and most did not make any distinctions between each other and worked as equal colleagues. Some physicians however still view DO with a negative light. Rightly or wrongly, one must consider that perceptions becomes reality, and that those biased individuals will be the people who would have a say in your future education. I.E, how many DO should we accept into our residency program vs MD students?

What can be said is that DO candidates today indeed have a harder time matching into more competitive specialties. For a DO to be considered for a competitive residency program, they must go above and beyond those from MD schools in grades, step 1, research, etc. Things can change in the future, when the stigma against DO no longer holds, but that's personally too big of a gamble considering how hard we've all worked to get this far.

Whatever your choice, I wish you the best in your future medical education. Those are both good schools, and I doubt you'll be short changed at either school.

 

[darklabel]

Btw, TCMC was taken off probation and their first match list wasn't too shabby. PCOM is also a great school, but I would pick TCMC. As a person who frequents the DO forums, most of the residents and 4th years will say that it is better to go to MD school. As said, people sometimes like to point out "What if as a DO you have higher grades and Step 1 than your MD counterparts?" but that isn't even the case. Someone on here had a great resume and was applying to ER but didn't get as many interview invites as his MD counterparts who had lower Step 1 scores. Also remember that if you wish to specialize in PCOM, most of the residencies are AOA and not necessarily ACGME, but not sure if that matters to you or not.

Imo, even with a brand new school like TCMC (which I really liked during my interview there), you are much more likely to break the mold and possibly get into top programs if you do exceptionally as opposed to going to any DO school and doing well.

 

[macbookpro45]

Btw, TCMC was taken off probation and their first match list wasn't too shabby. PCOM is also a great school, but I would pick TCMC. As a person who frequents the DO forums, most of the residents and 4th years will say that it is better to go to MD school. As said, people sometimes like to point out "What if as a DO you have higher grades and Step 1 than your MD counterparts?" but that isn't even the case. Someone on here had a great resume and was applying to ER but didn't get as many interview invites as his MD counterparts who had lower Step 1 scores. Also remember that if you wish to specialize in PCOM, most of the residencies are AOA and not necessarily ACGME, but not sure if that matters to you or not.

Imo, even with a brand new school like TCMC (which I really liked during my interview there), you are much more likely to break the mold and possibly get into top programs if you do exceptionally as opposed to going to any DO school and doing well.

What is the actual difference between, for example, an emergency medicine AOA or ACGME residency? In practice, what's the difference?

 

[notbobtrustme]

What is the actual difference between, for example, an emergency medicine AOA or ACGME residency? In practice, what's the difference?

Patient mix, ACGME residencies probably see a greater diversity of patients especially with EM because many ACGME spots are at academic centers near cities, meaning you'll see many more unique emergency cases.

Fellowship opportunities. IIRC, there was a proposal out there that would limit ACGME fellowships to those who have done an ACGME residency. Not sure where that is now, but it's something to consider. If you go AOA, you might not be able to go into an ACGME fellowship afterwards.

Recruiting. Recruiters want the best candidates possible and so they will have deeper connections with ACGME residencies, meaning you can get that position where you want and with the working environment you want. It might not be so easy with an AOA residency.

 

[QuizzicalApe]

As most folks have said, despite the fact that TCMC is new, going MD makes residencies less of a headache. It had a solid match list. It's probably your better option. I had been accepted to the first class, but decided to go somewhere else, being leery of a brand new school. Since then, it seems to be doing well for itself academically if not financially.

That being said, if you decided to go PCOM, that wouldn't be wrong. It's a good school. Maybe you just want to live in Philadelphia. I wouldn't blame you, I've lived in both places and admit that maybe Scranton has somewhat less of a bustling night life.