PCOM vs Howard College of Medicine

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reapplicanthelpme2014

reapplicanthelpme2014

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I wanted to post this here to get opinions of actual med students. Got into PCOM Philly and awaiting a decision on Howard (but I feel good about it). PCOM Philly has a great reputation and excellent match lists. Howard is regarded as a "lower tier" HBCU medical school, but I also like their focus and mission and environment (DC is pretty awesome). People have been telling me that whenever it's MD vs DO, always go MD unless it's for location purposes. For me, moving doesn't matter. And in this case, is the MD really better than the DO option? I'm just so confused because both of these schools provide great things for me, but I'm hearing more about less options if I choose the DO route. What are some opinions? Go with a top DO school or lower tier MD?
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reapplicanthelpme2014 said:
I wanted to post this here to get opinions of actual med students. Got into PCOM Philly and awaiting a decision on Howard (but I feel good about it). PCOM Philly has a great reputation and excellent match lists. Howard is regarded as a "lower tier" HBCU medical school, but I also like their focus and mission and environment (DC is pretty awesome). People have been telling me that whenever it's MD vs DO, always go MD unless it's for location purposes. For me, moving doesn't matter. And in this case, is the MD really better than the DO option? I'm just so confused because both of these schools provide great things for me, but I'm hearing more about less options if I choose the DO route. What are some opinions? Go with a top DO school or lower tier MD?
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That's a hard choice as both are very reputable and allow one to end up matching into great programs.

I don't think between these two schools that tier means much.

Have you looked at cost of attendance, curriculum, distance to family as a means to make a choice?
 
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Save yourself the headache. PCOM has a great reputation in the DO world but for clinical clerkships, away rotations, and residencies, MD trumps DO.
 
reapplicanthelpme2014 said:
I wanted to post this here to get opinions of actual med students. Got into PCOM Philly and awaiting a decision on Howard (but I feel good about it). PCOM Philly has a great reputation and excellent match lists. Howard is regarded as a "lower tier" HBCU medical school, but I also like their focus and mission and environment (DC is pretty awesome). People have been telling me that whenever it's MD vs DO, always go MD unless it's for location purposes. For me, moving doesn't matter. And in this case, is the MD really better than the DO option? I'm just so confused because both of these schools provide great things for me, but I'm hearing more about less options if I choose the DO route. What are some opinions? Go with a top DO school or lower tier MD?
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If you have the option, go to Howard. Its not as big of a difference as if it was PCOM vs a mid-tier MD, but by going to an MD school, you'll be able to avoid the discrimination from programs that flat out don't look at DOs but will look at low-tier MDs (however few those may be).

In addition, by the time you graduate, you'll have access to (i.e. be able to apply to) almost all of the formerly AOA residencies as an MD.
 
I would go the cheapest school.... PCOM and Howard will get you what you want... I know the MD vs DO conundrum, but Howard is low tier MD school though.
 
For a moment I glanced at the title and read "PCOM vs Harvard" and thought, "is that even a question?".

Seriously, OP, you have the best 'problem' in the world. Both are great schools, but to avoid having to - possibly - take two different board exams just to improve your chances of landing a good residency is reason alone to go to Howard.
 
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W19 said:
So you think attending any LCME accredited school (in that case a low tier one) is better than attending one of the top DO schools...
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Yes...i think.... (Assuming LCME doesnt accredit carib schools)

This little thing
"US MD>US DO>IMG MD"
Is extremely on point.
All US MD schools are better than all DO schools, which are better than all Carib schools.


That formula should really only be broken if money or location are real big time issues. Even considering money/location i would suggest doing everything you can to stick to the formula.
 
ChrisGriffen said:
Yes...i think.... (Assuming LCME doesnt accredit carib schools)

This little thing
"US MD>US DO>IMG MD"
Is extremely on point.
All US MD schools are better than all DO schools, which are better than all Carib schools.


That formula should really only be broken if money or location are real big time issues. Even considering money/location i would suggest doing everything you can to stick to the formula.
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Do you not like your DO education? Not trying to be a smartass, I'm genuinely asking. It's interesting to see a DO so against going DO. I appreciate the honesty though.
 
reapplicanthelpme2014 said:
Do you not like your DO education? Not trying to be a smartass, I'm genuinely asking. It's interesting to see a DO so against going DO. I appreciate the honesty though.
Click to expand...


To be clear I am not against going DO at all. If you only get into DO schools, thats where you should go. Its just that you will have to deal with a lot of unnecessary garbage.
You will still end up in the same place as had you gone MD.
 
2 options

One is a regular hot dog eating contest

The other

A hot dog eating contest, but you have to eat a very very small amount of poop with each hot dog.





The prize for participating in either contest is the same
 
ChrisGriffen said:
Yes...i think.... (Assuming LCME doesnt accredit carib schools)

This little thing
"US MD>US DO>IMG MD"
Is extremely on point.
All US MD schools are better than all DO schools, which are better than all Carib schools.


That formula should really only be broken if money or location are real big time issues. Even considering money/location i would suggest doing everything you can to stick to the formula.
Click to expand...
I disagree... Some low tiers MD school are not better than some of the top DO schools. You realize there are 4 MD schools that are not in the mainland! I am saying that as someone who is attending a US MD school. As far as Caribbean schools, I agree. People should use carib schools as a last resort.
 
Seriously, learning OMM can not be understated. You may think you'll find it "interesting" and "helpful", but you'll realize how much of an unnecessary time sink it is in it's current form. If they revamped the curriculum and got rid of all the BS, and perhaps started naming things intuitively instead of ass-backwards, it would be a worthwhile venture. Some of it works. A lot of it is a huge waste of time and energy.
 
W19 said:
I disagree... Some low tiers MD school are not better than some of the top DO schools. You realize there are 4 MD schools that are not in the mainland! I am saying that as someone who is attending a US MD school. As far as Caribbean schools, I agree. People should use carib schools as a last resort.
Click to expand...

5 MD schools, Hawaii is not apart of the mainland. Concur with the rest.
 
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Mehd School said:
Seriously, learning OMM can not be understated. You may think you'll find it "interesting" and "helpful", but you'll realize how much of an unnecessary time sink it is in it's current form. If they revamped the curriculum and got rid of all the BS, and perhaps started naming things intuitively instead of ass-backwards, it would be a worthwhile venture. Some of it works. A lot of it is a huge waste of time and energy.
Click to expand...
But is it a waste of .. Muscle energy?
 
W19 said:
I disagree... Some low tiers MD school are not better than some of the top DO schools. You realize there are 4 MD schools that are not in the mainland! I am saying that as someone who is attending a US MD school. As far as Caribbean schools, I agree. People should use carib schools as a last resort.
Click to expand...
Better in what sense?
 
W19 said:
Lol... I always forget Hawaii.
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Now I am starting to read about the possibility of the Virgin Islands establishing an MD school. My first reaction was 😱. Well, I guess we will see if it becomes a reality in the future.
 
reapplicanthelpme2014 said:
Better in what sense?
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I obviously don't know what goes on in every single US med school, but I am confident there will be a few DO schools out there that provide a better education than some MD schools... I must admit that LCME strikes some fear in the allo world as evidenced by what I see going on in my school. They are truly afraid of the LCME! I am sure the education across all the allo schools is not the same, hence the ranking system.
 
W19 said:
I obviously don't know what goes on in every single US med school, but I am confident there will be a few DO schools out there that provide a better education than some MD schools... I must admit that LCME strikes some fear in the allo world as evidenced by what I see going on in my school. They are truly afraid of the LCME! I am sure the education across all the allo schools is not the same, hence the ranking system.
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But if they all have to take the same boards, shouldn't the education be the same? I thought the ranking came from research and network opportunities, not on the education given.
 
reapplicanthelpme2014 said:
But if they all have to take the same boards, shouldn't the education be the same? I thought the ranking came from research and network opportunities, not on the education given.
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Ranking come mostly from what you said, but I am pretty sure that resources across all LCME schools are not same... However, LCME does a good job in keeping every school in-check as far as the minimum they have to offer to their students... I am saying that because I am attending a low tier school and I can attest that they try their best to provide us a good education. I am sure that might be the case for DO schools as well. But I have no illusion that I receive the same education as someone who is attending JHU because the student body is not the same as well...
 
Is there any way that you can talk to a current student at Howard to find out what they think about their program?

I thought I might have the same dilemma and have to decide between PCOM and Howard, however this was several years ago and I was a little bit nervous if Howard was the only school I was accepted in to as I had heard negative things from students. Mostly that it was disorganized and professors would miss lecture. Like I said, this was years ago, so I'm not sure if things have changed. But luckily Howard sent me a rejection letter in October when I had already started med school lol. That kind of made me think that they were a bit unorganized.

I agree that going to a MD school is "better" since you don't have to jump through a few unnecessary hoops that DO students do, but some of the negative things I had heard about Howard made me want to investigate further. I have nothing against "low tier" schools as long as they provide a solid education, I was just concerned about some of the specific problems I had heard about the program.
 
AMEHigh said:
Is there any way that you can talk to a current student at Howard to find out what they think about their program?

I thought I might have the same dilemma and have to decide between PCOM and Howard, however this was several years ago and I was a little bit nervous if Howard was the only school I was accepted in to as I had heard negative things from students. Mostly that it was disorganized and professors would miss lecture. Like I said, this was years ago, so I'm not sure if things have changed. But luckily Howard sent me a rejection letter in October when I had already started med school lol. That kind of made me think that they were a bit unorganized.

I agree that going to a MD school is "better" since you don't have to jump through a few unnecessary hoops that DO students do, but some of the negative things I had heard about Howard made me want to investigate further. I have nothing against "low tier" schools as long as they provide a solid education, I was just concerned about some of the specific problems I had heard about the program.
Click to expand...
This is my EXACT concern. I think I will talk to some more students...perhaps there's some on SDN
 
reapplicanthelpme2014 said:
But if they all have to take the same boards, shouldn't the education be the same? I thought the ranking came from research and network opportunities, not on the education given.
Click to expand...


http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...ethodology-2015-best-medical-schools-rankings

Here's the methodology for ranking. None of it is based on the quality of education. On top of the other stuff people mentioned, at MD schools you tend to get more opportunities to do research. If you have anything greater than a casual desire to get involved in research, you should go to Howard, unless they're especially research adverse (I think the LCME wouldn't tolerate that, though). Don't think of PCOM as a "top DO school" when you're making this decision. The whole idea of tiers within osteopathic schools is pretty ludicrous. The reputation of the osteopathic school probably matters to some extent to osteopathic residency programs, but ACGME residency programs will not see PCOM as a top DO school, they will see it as a DO school. It's not like the Howard name would carry you into a prestigious residency, but it would open the door to a few residencies that do not take DO's. But if you find that Howard is really poorly put together, PCOM would probably be the better bet. Unhappy, resentful students don't have as much energy to study for boards or perform well on rotation. Bad board scores and not getting quality letters of rec would influence your future way more heavily than being an MD or DO.
 
Hey OP,

I am a current student at HUCM and IMO Howard has more than prepared me to be a competitive applicant for residencies. Yes, our admissions staff is incredibly understaffed and can be a bit slow (okay a lot) but once you actually get in you'll get a great education, good preparation for the boards and have at least a little bit of time to enjoy the nightlife of Washington DC! I think what one poster said was correct about med school. It is becoming a lot more self-studying and if I knew what I knew now about med school, I would go to a school that will give me enough time to study for Step 1 as I am going for a competitive field. Lucky for me, Howard def gave me that time and I got the score that I wanted.
I think this low-tier/mid-tier/top 20 Allo divisions are rubbish. You go to an allopathic med school and work your butt off to get what you need to be competitive and you will have your choice of specialties and residencies. Howard has people in recent years match residency programs like WashU CT surgery, Hopkins/HSS/NYU ortho, Harvard/Hopkins OBGYN etc. I got love for DO schools but because of MD bias you don't see a lot of DOs in those residencies. The little known secret about Howard is that their network/connections are extensive if you seek it and you can find yourself shadowing the first black president of X American society week 1 of med school. (I had the honor of doing that).

So yea, do what's best for you but in my opinion you can prosper in any MD school, especially Howard. One doc I talked to put it best. Howard takes many students who got 25-28 on the MCAT and turns them into 230-270 on Step and graduates them at a comparable rate to any other US MD school.
 
MrWhatupDoc said:
Hey OP,

I am a current student at HUCM and IMO Howard has more than prepared me to be a competitive applicant for residencies. Yes, our admissions staff is incredibly understaffed and can be a bit slow (okay a lot) but once you actually get in you'll get a great education, good preparation for the boards and have at least a little bit of time to enjoy the nightlife of Washington DC! I think what one poster said was correct about med school. It is becoming a lot more self-studying and if I knew what I knew now about med school, I would go to a school that will give me enough time to study for Step 1 as I am going for a competitive field. Lucky for me, Howard def gave me that time and I got the score that I wanted.
I think this low-tier/mid-tier/top 20 Allo divisions are rubbish. You go to an allopathic med school and work your butt off to get what you need to be competitive and you will have your choice of specialties and residencies. Howard has people in recent years match residency programs like WashU CT surgery, Hopkins/HSS/NYU ortho, Harvard/Hopkins OBGYN etc. I got love for DO schools but because of MD bias you don't see a lot of DOs in those residencies. The little known secret about Howard is that their network/connections are extensive if you seek it and you can find yourself shadowing the first black president of X American society week 1 of med school. (I had the honor of doing that).

So yea, do what's best for you but in my opinion you can prosper in any MD school, especially Howard. One doc I talked to put it best. Howard takes many students who got 25-28 on the MCAT and turns them into 230-270 on Step and graduates them at a comparable rate to any other US MD school.
Click to expand...
Great to hear from a current student. Will be PMing you soon!
 
Too many people are hating OMM. While I have no experience with it I would at least think that osteopathic schools are based on this fundamental hands on manipulation which sets them apart from allopathic schools. For those that think it is a waste of time, are you saying this because you could not get into a MD school (and you are thinking of allopathic residency) and henceforth your expectation/usage of OMM are substandard or do you think there is a way to improve OMM? I feel like this needs to be addressed before people start hating on OMM.
 
PlaqueBuster said:
Too many people are hating OMM. While I have no experience with it I would at least think that osteopathic schools are based on this fundamental hands on manipulation which sets them apart from allopathic schools. For those that think it is a waste of time, are you saying this because you could not get into a MD school (and you are thinking of allopathic residency) and henceforth your expectation/usage of OMM are substandard or do you think there is a way to improve OMM? I feel like this needs to be addressed before people start hating on OMM.
Click to expand...

No.

Nobody actually in medical school here is posting that and I don't know why you are suggesting it. It has absolutely nothing to do with ACGME vs AOA residencies or which schools students applied to originally.

To reintegrate what's been said by tons of students already, what is frustrating is: the fact that many treatments have zero legitimate research backing and don't adhere to basic science principles, there aren't enough studies being conducted in general, the grading is highly subjective, theories such as cranial and chapmans make DOs look bad compared to MDs, the JAOA is an non-IF rated journal with limited credibility, and learning pseudoscience takes away from time spent doing things that can increase your chance of matching your goal be it AOA or ACGME.

With that said, there are many positives of OMM and many great treatments. People are expressing that the illegitimate practiced and lack of research are taking away from the positives and the DO name.

If Temple began a side curriculum of homeopathic herbal treatments with zero research backing it that demanded hours per week, students should be able to express their concern and demand more EBM. No one would accuse them of just complaining because they didn't get into a top 10 school without that component.
 
DrEnderW said:
No.

Nobody actually in medical school here is posting that and I don't know why you are suggesting it. It has absolutely nothing to do with ACGME vs AOA residencies or which schools students applied to originally.

To reintegrate what's been said by tons of students already, what is frustrating is: the fact that many treatments have zero legitimate research backing and don't adhere to basic science principles, there aren't enough studies being conducted in general, the grading is highly subjective, theories such as cranial and chapmans make DOs look bad compared to MDs, the JAOA is an non-IF rated journal with limited credibility, and learning pseudoscience takes away from time spent doing things that can increase your chance of matching your goal be it AOA or ACGME.

With that said, there are many positives of OMM and many great treatments. People are expressing that the illegitimate practiced and lack of research are taking away from the positives and the DO name.

If Temple began a side curriculum of homeopathic herbal treatments with zero research backing it that demanded hours per week, students should be able to express their concern and demand more EBM. No one would accuse them of just complaining because they didn't get into a top 10 school without that component.
Click to expand...
Thanks for clearing that up for me
 
DrEnderW said:
To reintegrate what's been said by tons of students already, what is frustrating is: the fact that many treatments have zero legitimate research backing and don't adhere to basic science principles, there aren't enough studies being conducted in general, the grading is highly subjective, theories such as cranial and chapmans make DOs look bad compared to MDs, the JAOA is an non-IF rated journal with limited credibility, and learning pseudoscience takes away from time spent doing things that can increase your chance of matching your goal be it AOA or ACGME.
Click to expand...
You mean I shouldn't be using viscerosomatics to help rule out cardiac causes of chest pain? (...and yes, I have had a visiting OMM professor suggest just that, and she wasn't impressed when I suggested an EKG, CXR, and enzymes, and if those weren't available then to transfer the patient to someplace that can do those things).
 
PlaqueBuster said:
Too many people are hating OMM. While I have no experience with it I would at least think that osteopathic schools are based on this fundamental hands on manipulation which sets them apart from allopathic schools. For those that think it is a waste of time, are you saying this because you could not get into a MD school (and you are thinking of allopathic residency) and henceforth your expectation/usage of OMM are substandard or do you think there is a way to improve OMM? I feel like this needs to be addressed before people start hating on OMM.
Click to expand...
bolding the only important part in this statement.
 
DrEnderW said:
To reintegrate what's been said by tons of students already, what is frustrating is: the fact that many treatments have zero legitimate research backing and don't adhere to basic science principles, there aren't enough studies being conducted in general, the grading is highly subjective, theories such as cranial and chapmans make DOs look bad compared to MDs, the JAOA is an non-IF rated journal with limited credibility, and learning pseudoscience takes away from time spent doing things that can increase your chance of matching your goal be it AOA or ACGME.
Click to expand...
adding to this, an attitude of silence and tolerance, for fear of retribution (from school, AOA, NBOME, etc) if one speaks out.
 
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W19 said:
Ranking come mostly from what you said, but I am pretty sure that resources across all LCME schools are not same... However, LCME does a good job in keeping every school in-check as far as the minimum they have to offer to their students... I am saying that because I am attending a low tier school and I can attest that they try their best to provide us a good education. I am sure that might be the case for DO schools as well. But I have no illusion that I receive the same education as someone who is attending JHU because the student body is not the same as well...
Click to expand...

Based on what? The student body of JHU may not be the same but you're learning the same material as someone attending JHU if you attend an LCME accredited school no matter how low the school is ranked. The only difference is research opportunities and name recognition/prestige (which means a lot, but we're talking education here). JHU doesn't learn anything that mid and lower tier schools aren't taught. However, for DO schools they're mixed since you have some great schools but then you have schools that have people thinking how they can possible be a school and ACGME PDs don't know the requirements or rigors of being accredited by COCA, which are lower than LCME's. But I see a lot of people here saying "Some of the best DO schools > low tier MD schools" with nothing to back them up but "feelings". When I compare the residency list of PCOM and Howard, I would attend Howard any day.
 
darklabel said:
Based on what? The student body of JHU may not be the same but you're learning the same material as someone attending JHU if you attend an LCME accredited school no matter how low the school is ranked. The only difference is research opportunities and name recognition/prestige (which means a lot, but we're talking education here). JHU doesn't learn anything that mid and lower tier schools aren't taught. However, for DO schools they're mixed since you have some great schools but then you have schools that have people thinking how they can possible be a school and ACGME PDs don't know the requirements or rigors of being accredited by COCA, which are lower than LCME's. But I see a lot of people here saying "Some of the best DO schools > low tier MD schools" with nothing to back them up but "feelings". When I compare the residency list of PCOM and Howard, I would attend Howard any day.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I don't think this is really accurate. We all still have to pass boards, which test the same info, whether its the COMLEX or the USMLE, and given what I've heard they are pretty close difficulty wise. I'd buy this if there were schools that had horrendous pass rates, but most percents are still in the 90s.

The main differences between the LCME and COCA come into play with funding and clinical years. Funding in my opinion barely come into play with competency except when it comes to research knowledge. Clinicals are variable sure but low/no-tier MD schools have a lot of the same problems as DO schools. Also, someone who goes to JHU is learning a different level of stuff on clinicals than someone at Howard, who's clinicals are just as variable as top DO schools. The fact that they are both LCME accredited just means they both achieve at least the minimum requirement. It tells you nothing of the upper limit those schools have.

The only reason Howard is a better choice than PCOM has nothing to do with how well it prepares you, and everything to do with the stigma of the DO degree among ACGME PDs. As you said, they don't know anything about COCA, so for that reason DOs are automatically put at a disadvantage, regardless of whether or not their clinical ed was equivalent. If only to avoid that and OMM (if you have no intention of using it), Howard is the better choice. But don't fool yourself into thinking the quality of education will be that different between top DO and low-tier MD.
 
darklabel said:
Based on what? The student body of JHU may not be the same but you're learning the same material as someone attending JHU if you attend an LCME accredited school no matter how low the school is ranked. The only difference is research opportunities and name recognition/prestige (which means a lot, but we're talking education here). JHU doesn't learn anything that mid and lower tier schools aren't taught. However, for DO schools they're mixed since you have some great schools but then you have schools that have people thinking how they can possible be a school and ACGME PDs don't know the requirements or rigors of being accredited by COCA, which are lower than LCME's. But I see a lot of people here saying "Some of the best DO schools > low tier MD schools" with nothing to back them up but "feelings". When I compare the residency list of PCOM and Howard, I would attend Howard any day.
Click to expand...
I find the residency lists to be comparable...
 
ChrisGriffen said:
2 options

One is a regular hot dog eating contest

The other

A hot dog eating contest, but you have to eat a very very small amount of poop with each hot dog.





The prize for participating in either contest is the same
Click to expand...

I totally chuckled at this lol. Interesting way of putting it.
 
hallowmann said:
Honestly, I don't think this is really accurate. We all still have to pass boards, which test the same info, whether its the COMLEX or the USMLE, and given what I've heard they are pretty close difficulty wise. I'd buy this if there were schools that had horrendous pass rates, but most percents are still in the 90s.

The main differences between the LCME and COCA come into play with funding and clinical years. Funding in my opinion barely come into play with competency except when it comes to research knowledge. Clinicals are variable sure but low/no-tier MD schools have a lot of the same problems as DO schools. Also, someone who goes to JHU is learning a different level of stuff on clinicals than someone at Howard, who's clinicals are just as variable as top DO schools. The fact that they are both LCME accredited just means they both achieve at least the minimum requirement. It tells you nothing of the upper limit those schools have.

The only reason Howard is a better choice than PCOM has nothing to do with how well it prepares you, and everything to do with the stigma of the DO degree among ACGME PDs. As you said, they don't know anything about COCA, so for that reason DOs are automatically put at a disadvantage, regardless of whether or not their clinical ed was equivalent. If only to avoid that and OMM (if you have no intention of using it), Howard is the better choice. But don't fool yourself into thinking the quality of education will be that different between top DO and low-tier MD.
Click to expand...

I clearly said "for DO schools they're mixed since you have some great schools but then you have schools that have people thinking how they can possible be a school and ACGME PDs don't know the requirements or rigors of being accredited by COCA, which are lower than LCME's."


I am very well aware that some DO schools are great, but from what data do people extrapolate that some DO schools are better than low tier MD schools? You also don't know how Howard handles their education there or what their clinical rotations are like so how can you make an assertion of how much better a DO school is over it? Maybe the education can be similar, but I wouldn't go as far as saying better like I see some people saying here spouting sometimes without any facts except "It just seems like it".
 
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