PD who cheated in the match

[jolene]

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How do I report a program director who made deals in the match. I have confirmed reports from two people who matched at a place that they were promised that they would match. Isn't that illegal? How can I report this without putting myself in jeopardy. BTW, I matched somewhere else and am happy with it. I just don't want this farce to continue.

 

[st0rmin]

How do I report a program director who made deals in the match. I have confirmed reports from two people who matched at a place that they were promised that they would match. Isn't that illegal? How can I report this without putting myself in jeopardy. BTW, I matched somewhere else and am happy with it. I just don't want this farce to continue.

Programs may tell you that they plan to rank you high (ie. 1). You may tell programs you plan to rank them #1. They may not ask you, and you may not ask them.

From the NRMP site, "In addition, although applicants or programs may volunteer how they plan to rank each other, it is a material breach of this Agreement to request such information."

You matched, be happy.

 

[missdr]

i think you should re-read the match rules...it is not illegal...they can guarantee anything to you...they just cannot ask you if/where you ranked them and you cannot ask them if/where they ranked you. there were plenty of people on this forum who wrote letters to their #1 choices telling them that they were ranking them #1 which is perfectly legal and i received lots of solicitations prior to the ROL date but no one asked me straight out if i was going to rank them or not (which would be illegal). PDs can promise whatever they want and in this case they were telling the truth--not always the case...i have heard of the same thing happening but then the person didn't match there and was really mad, so you always have to realize that the PD is under no legal obligation to rank you even if they promise you will match there---a bit shady of course but definitely not a breech of match rules...

 

[Idiopathic]

Looks legal to me. Nothing wrong with promising a spot, as long as you dont ask for a promise in return.

Its no different than us writing a PD, telling him we are ranking that program #1.

 

[mysophobe]

Grow up. What are you, twelve?

 

[OSUdoc08]

How do I report a program director who made deals in the match. I have confirmed reports from two people who matched at a place that they were promised that they would match. Isn't that illegal? How can I report this without putting myself in jeopardy. BTW, I matched somewhere else and am happy with it. I just don't want this farce to continue.

 

[jolene]

There was an agreement between the PD and the applicants. That is what I meant to imply. I thought that the intent of the match process was to not have these side deals. Maybe I am wrong.

Sorry if I sounded like a tattletale, crybaby or that I am only twelve.

 

[DrMom]

What do you mean by agreement? The PD can say where they're ranking someone & the applicant can say where they're ranking the program...as long as each is offering the info rather than being asked. Each side can make ranking (or even interviewing) decisions based on the information offered by the other.

 

[BStein76]

There was an agreement between the PD and the applicants. That is what I meant to imply. I thought that the intent of the match process was to not have these side deals. Maybe I am wrong.

Sorry if I sounded like a tattletale, crybaby or that I am only twelve.

I suspect that these agreements were either verbal (i.e. no proof) or used very "soft language" like "I look forward to seeing you here soon". Unfortunately even if you report them to the NRMP I doubt anything will get done other than "Welcome to academics". Many schools keep a book full of emails and letters from programs that students did not successfully match at. I feel the match process is more to charge medical students excessive fees more than help us (like the Step II CS is intended to help us assess our clinical skills), but they have a monopoly on residency positions so most of us have to suck it up.

 

[Hurricane]

What about this: I have heard that the PD of a certain program is asking students (both those who did and did not match there) what their ROL was after the fact. It's making some of the students uncomfortable. No, I am not going to tattle (it's not even my field) but I was just wondering if that is "allowed"?

 

[cdql]

I cheated on my taxes last year. Who has the IRS's number? I need to right this wrong 🙂

 

[Danger Man]

How do I report a program director who made deals in the match. I have confirmed reports from two people who matched at a place that they were promised that they would match. Isn't that illegal? How can I report this without putting myself in jeopardy. BTW, I matched somewhere else and am happy with it. I just don't want this farce to continue.

I think that you should contact the NRMP and file formal charges against said PD. I anticipate that the PD will deny your complaint, but that's when you can play your trump card with the 'Liar liar pants on fire!!' taunt.

 

[southerndoc]

I cheated on my taxes last year. Who has the IRS's number? I need to right this wrong 🙂

Don't worry, we already reported you. 🙂

 

[cdql]

How do I report a hiring manager who made deals in the job application process? I have confirmed reports from two McDonald's workers who got a job at a place where they were promised the job. Isn't that illegal? How can I report this without putting myself in jeopardy? When is it appropriate to use question marks? BTW, I have a job at Burger King and am happy with it. I just don't want this farce to continue.

 

[Obedeli]

How do I report a program director who made deals in the match. I have confirmed reports from two people who matched at a place that they were promised that they would match. Isn't that illegal? How can I report this without putting myself in jeopardy. BTW, I matched somewhere else and am happy with it. I just don't want this farce to continue.

WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH YOU!!! You were the kid in class who reminded the teacher to pick up the homework.

I really thought this post was a joke, maybe it is.

 

[Obedeli]

Awesome.

I wish we could plug in a sound bite of 'EWHOooooooooooooo yoooooooooure in trouuuuuuuuble becauuuuuuuuse I am gonna tell."

 

[docB]

How do I report a program director who made deals in the match. I have confirmed reports from two people who matched at a place that they were promised that they would match.

What's a "confirmed report?" It sounds a lot like "I know someone who said..." I don't know if I'd go to bat on that.

 

[jolene]

What's a "confirmed report?" It sounds a lot like "I know someone who said..." I don't know if I'd go to bat on that.

No mas. I give up. Sorry I wasted everyone's time. Continue to discuss amongst yourselves. I'll go back to myspace.com

 

[OSUdoc08]

No mas. I give up. Sorry I wasted everyone's time. Continue to discuss amongst yourselves. I'll go back to myspace.com

ooh i'm on myspace right now 👍

 

[remedios]

Let's give her a break... she probably just didn't realize it is quite legal for programs to reveal how they would rank a candidate, and vice versa.

Apparently a lot of other people asked this question to our dean, and she wrote us that the only illegal thing would be if the PD ASKED someone what their ranklist was (technically, a candidate CAN ask the PD where he or she is ranked!)

 

[OSUdoc08]

Let's give her a break... she probably just didn't realize it is quite legal for programs to reveal how they would rank a candidate, and vice versa.

Apparently a lot of other people asked this question to our dean, and she wrote us that the only illegal thing would be if the PD ASKED someone what their ranklist was (technically, a candidate CAN ask the PD where he or she is ranked!)

You can ask anyone anything. Freedom of speech. That doesn't mean that you deserve a response.

 

[remedios]

You can ask anyone anything. Freedom of speech. That doesn't mean that you deserve a response.

No one I know had the chutzpah to ask directly. But I'm sure everyone who sent out the "You are my #1/top 3" is secretly hoping for a reply that says "We will rank you highly."

 

[Elderberry]

How did Jolene know this deal was being made, since, presumably, it was behind closed doors with someone else? This means others may also know.

Was it really a deal, like "I'll rank you number one if you rank us number one, OK? Is that an agreement?"

If so, this practice would be against the NRMP guidelines. Do you all think this is OK? Do you think it's bad of anyone who thinks this is dirty?

Anyway, if a program would do this, who knows what other questionable practices the program condones. What if once in, you become the victim of one of their questionable practices.

Be careful when making deals with the Devil.

 

[remedios]

How did Jolene know this deal was being made, since, presumably, it was behind closed doors with someone else? This means others may also know.

Was it really a deal, like "I'll rank you number one if you rank us number one, OK? Is that an agreement?"

If so, this practice would be against the NRMP guidelines. Do you all think this is OK? Do you think it's bad of anyone who thinks this is dirty?

Anyway, if a program would do this, who knows what other questionable practices the program condones. What if once in, you become the victim of one of their questionable practices.

Be careful when making deals with the Devil.

See the original post. It depends on the meaning of the word "promise". OP probably just made a mistake in terms of programs letting candidates know they are ranked highly, which happens all the time.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

who cares. if she is at a place that she is happy with than what does it matter if the PD does shady stuff. be happy you got what you got.

 

[Plastikos]

who cares. if she is at a place that she is happy with than what does it matter if the PD does shady stuff. be happy you got what you got.

Is that ever the case in these scenarios that invariably start out, "can you believe such and such occurred, oh, but not that i care b/c i matched at my #1 and am ecstatic".

Riiiight.

 

[Poety]

Why does anyone really care after match? OMG - gunners even after the fact yuck.

LOL PLASTIKOS - shyeah right? Not that I care and umm not that I want to (note key words) "JEAPORDIZE MYSELF" (read: because I'm so jealous that I can't stand myself so I'm going to screw anyone else over or at least try to)

NO ONE BUT NO ONE LIKES A SNITCH - learn that BEFORE residency, PLEASE.

 

[OUsooner]

Jolene, please stay at myspace. It does not matter than there was a misunderstanding, you are still showing a serious lack of social skillz.
My top program told me over the phone and through mail that they would rank me "very highly". Well, clearly it was not highly enough. It took me about 1.5 beers to get over this.
Something tells me you're the type of person that gets really pissed about little things around the hospital but does not have the intestinal fortitude to ever do anything about these things. Maybe I'm being to hard on you. Either way congrats on getting your "top choice" - like 99% of others here at SDN. 🙄

 

[EctopicFetus]

What about this: I have heard that the PD of a certain program is asking students (both those who did and did not match there) what their ROL was after the fact. It's making some of the students uncomfortable. No, I am not going to tattle (it's not even my field) but I was just wondering if that is "allowed"?

After the match the PD is basically no different than having your mom ask. Feel free to lie cheat and steal. If you dont want him to know say.. "I dont remember" I honestly dont remember which 2 programs were my final 2. If someone asked and I didnt want to hurt feelings I could say oh I ranked you # 2. And thats it.

 

[remedios]

After the match the PD is basically no different than having your mom ask. Feel free to lie cheat and steal. If you dont want him to know say.. "I dont remember" I honestly dont remember which 2 programs were my final 2. If someone asked and I didnt want to hurt feelings I could say oh I ranked you # 2. And thats it.

It also helps the school and department in terms of advising future students to compile information regarding interviews, ranklists, and match (e.g., they can give a pretty good estimate where a student with a certain profile will be competitive). I personally think that during the match more information is always better.

EDIT: oops misread above. But maybe the program is trying to figure out who they are losing their recruit to?

 

[WilcoWorld]

who cares. if she is at a place that she is happy with than what does it matter if the PD does shady stuff. be happy you got what you got.

...Then they came for me, and there was noone left to speak...
Maybe the OP is a crybaby tattletale...that is irrelevant. (As an aside, I think it's notable that posters criticized the OP for being childish but no one has commented on the less than mature insults levied his/her way in this very same thread.) What is revelant is that people should stand up for what is right, even if the wrongdoing in question does not cause that person any direct harm. What does it matter if the PD engages in a few ethical indiscresions during the match? you ask. It matters a whole lot if that is indicative of a pattern of other indiscresions.

I do not know the details of the case in question, and it seems quite possible that no rules were actually broken here. Also, I find people who decide that they hate the match right after they find that it doesn't give them exactly what they want to be pretty damn annoying. However, the sentiment expressed here, that one should ignore "shady" activities so long as they don't negatively effect you, is a dangerous and somewhat cowardly stance in my opinion.

<High horse unmounted>

 

[cdql]

I don't feel that way at all. There will always be "corrupt" PD's who will try to lure the top-notch applicants to their program by offering a guarantee.

It's no different from that fact that there will always be people who cheat on their taxes, or who show favoritism when hiring people.

How dangerous can it really be if this sort of thing occurs all the time in the real world anyway?

 

[Plastikos]

I don't feel that way at all. There will always be "corrupt" PD's who will try to lure the top-notch applicants to their program by offering a guarantee.

It's no different from that fact that there will always be people who cheat on their taxes, or who show favoritism when hiring people.

How dangerous can it really be if this sort of thing occurs all the time in the real world anyway?

Not to mention that its artificially unethical b/c of the ******ed match system anyways, its not like this "i have a secret" attitude in other fields. Also, the PD/students didnt do anything wrong.

 

[Elderberry]

I know a lot of people working in some Fortune 500 companies.

Unfortunately, the business people I know seem to pride themselves on much higher ethical standards than voiced here.

Are we not supposed to be doctors and have high ethical standards, or at least pretend to?

It's just so damn, damn, damn embarassing. My face is red for all...everybody.

 

[OUsooner]

I know a lot of people working in some Fortune 500 companies.

Unfortunately, the business people I know seem to pride themselves on much higher ethical standards than voiced here.

Are we not supposed to be doctors and have high ethical standards, or at least pretend to?

It's just so damn, damn, damn embarassing. My face is red for all...everybody.

Yeah, I know how ethical all those business peeps at fortune 500 companies are. 😀

 

[OSUdoc08]

I know a lot of people working in some Fortune 500 companies.

Unfortunately, the business people I know seem to pride themselves on much higher ethical standards than voiced here.

Are we not supposed to be doctors and have high ethical standards, or at least pretend to?

It's just so damn, damn, damn embarassing. My face is red for all...everybody.

Are you kidding me?

I can think of plenty more embarrassing things than helping a student end up at a residency program that he/she desires, and vice versa.

WOW --> BIG BREACH OF ETHICS THERE ! ! ! ! !


👎 👎 👎

 

[Obedeli]

I know a lot of people working in some Fortune 500 companies.

Unfortunately, the business people I know seem to pride themselves on much higher ethical standards than voiced here.

Are we not supposed to be doctors and have high ethical standards, or at least pretend to?

It's just so damn, damn, damn embarassing. My face is red for all...everybody.

I don't need your pity!

I didn't know they had a computer in that ivory tower. 🙄


Doctors lie, cheat, divorce, speed, yell, become impatient, and do everything else that plagues the rest of humanity. In light of these perpetual human flaws, getting into a residency spot by a "promise" HARDLY calls for such a reaction.

Yet again, the high priesthood of medicine. Look to the history of medicine and their involvement in Nazi germany or more recently, on black men in Alabama. This is no priesthood.

Getting in a spot for residency hardly calls for such a spit swallowing response. Your face must turn red every time you take a dump chap!

 

[cdql]

Yeah, I know how ethical all those business peeps at fortune 500 companies are. 😀

I know! Business people are all saints! Shame on doctors!

In fact, I know a couple of used car salesmen too! They have the utmost standard of ethical morality!! 🙄

 

[bigfrank]

How do I report a program director who made deals in the match. I have confirmed reports from two people who matched at a place that they were promised that they would match. Isn't that illegal? How can I report this without putting myself in jeopardy. BTW, I matched somewhere else and am happy with it. I just don't want this farce to continue.

visit the website to report it:

www.imatool.org/dumba$$

 

[OSUdoc08]

visit the website to report it:

www.imatool.org/dumba$$

👍 👍 👍

 

[cdql]

hahaha...that was a scrubs line i think!

I'm a tool, I'm a tool, I'm a tool tool tool!

 

[Obedeli]

I know a lot of people working in some Fortune 500 companies.

Mc Donalds, Taco Bell?!??!

 

[spalatin]

If so, this practice would be against the NRMP guidelines. Do you all think this is OK? Do you think it's bad of anyone who thinks this is dirty?

. . .

Be careful when making deals with the Devil.

I think the NRMP is dirty. Actually the NRMP is the devil and we all sold our souls to it.

 

[spalatin]

I know! Business people are all saints! Shame on doctors!

In fact, I know a couple of used car salesmen too! They have the utmost standard of ethical morality!! 🙄

Wow! I didn't know surgeons sold used cars!

 

[Elderberry]

I give up.

You are all right, I guess. I will be quiet now and put away my crazy ideas.

We are all ethical physicians. Our face is saved, as long as anyone who disagrees or voices an opinion different from ours is

1) Called names that kindergarten children and teenagers find very scary.

2) Labeled "car salesman" or fast-food workers.

3) Shut down and wiped out.

We will not listen to any questioners. We are right and know it all.
We must take up arms and shut down any dissenters. Sieg Heil!

In all seriousness, though, unless the field of medicine shows more professional behavior and a respectful face, the public will not believe we can police ourselves. We can't attack lawyers as greedy ambulance chasers when we condone any violations (big or small) of our own rules and standards of conduct. This is the world-wide web, accessible to everyone and anyone. Remember what you all wrote in your medical school application essays about why you wanted to go into medicine? Looks like you could put car salesmen to shame. The public already has their doubts about doctors. Showing anything less than honorable behavior will not benefit us in the fight for tort reform.

Will not anyone respond to this in a mature way? If not, then lots of luck to you & your future patients, but I am through with this forum. I Have fun.

 

[OUsooner]

I give up.

You are all right, I guess. I will be quiet now and put away my crazy ideas.

We are all ethical physicians. Our face is saved, as long as anyone who disagrees or voices an opinion different from ours is

1) Called names that kindergarten children and teenagers find very scary.

2) Labeled "car salesman" or fast-food workers.

3) Shut down and wiped out.

We will not listen to any questioners. We are right and know it all.
We must take up arms and shut down any dissenters. Sieg Heil!

In all seriousness, though, unless the field of medicine shows more professional behavior and a respectful face, the public will not believe we can police ourselves. We can't attack lawyers as greedy ambulance chasers when we condone any violations (big or small) of our own rules and standards of conduct. This is the world-wide web, accessible to everyone and anyone. Remember what you all wrote in your medical school application essays about why you wanted to go into medicine? Looks like you could put car salesmen to shame. The public already has their doubts about doctors. Showing anything less than honorable behavior will not benefit us in the fight for tort reform.

Will not anyone respond to this in a mature way? If not, then lots of luck to you & your future patients, but I am through with this forum. I Have fun.

Nice to see you hopped right back on top of that high horse. First of all, if you think we police ourselves you are demented.

Secondly, your comment on how ethical all your fortune 500 buddies are is ludicrous, and deserved to be roundly ripped, as it was. I'm not too sure what your business background consists of, but it clearly doesn't get you too far. Every industry involved with money is involved with corruption - some more than others. The physicians I know are often jaded but still, as a group, are not even close to as corrupt as the higher ups in various businesses (once again, as a group).

Where the he!! do you get off asking us all to show "honorable behavior", insinuating this is what is gonna change tort reform. Put down your Actiq suckers, rip off those Duragesic patches and slowly welcome yourself back to the real world. 😀

 

[Solideliquid]

Nice to see you hopped right back on top of that high horse. First of all, if you think we police ourselves you are demented.

Secondly, your comment on how ethical all your fortune 500 buddies are is ludicrous, and deserved to be roundly ripped, as it was. I'm not too sure what your business background consists of, but it clearly doesn't get you too far. Every industry involved with money is involved with corruption - some more than others. The physicians I know are often jaded but still, as a group, are not even close to as corrupt as the higher ups in various businesses (once again, as a group).

Where the he!! do you get off asking us all to show "honorable behavior", insinuating this is what is gonna change tort reform. Put down your Actiq suckers, rip off those Duragesic patches and slowly welcome yourself back to the real world. 😀

Where was ENRON in the fortune 500?

Oh yeah.. "It was on the Fortune's "100 Best Companies to Work for in America" list in 2000..." From Wikipedia

 

[Poety]

I give up.

You are all right, I guess. I will be quiet now and put away my crazy ideas.

We are all ethical physicians. Our face is saved, as long as anyone who disagrees or voices an opinion different from ours is

1) Called names that kindergarten children and teenagers find very scary.

2) Labeled "car salesman" or fast-food workers.

3) Shut down and wiped out.

We will not listen to any questioners. We are right and know it all.
We must take up arms and shut down any dissenters. Sieg Heil!

In all seriousness, though, unless the field of medicine shows more professional behavior and a respectful face, the public will not believe we can police ourselves. We can't attack lawyers as greedy ambulance chasers when we condone any violations (big or small) of our own rules and standards of conduct. This is the world-wide web, accessible to everyone and anyone. Remember what you all wrote in your medical school application essays about why you wanted to go into medicine? Looks like you could put car salesmen to shame. The public already has their doubts about doctors. Showing anything less than honorable behavior will not benefit us in the fight for tort reform.

Will not anyone respond to this in a mature way? If not, then lots of luck to you & your future patients, but I am through with this forum. I Have fun.

Someone's not going to get along and play nice with their colleagues 👎

If you think a PD telling someone they're ranked number one and they're "guaranteed a spot if you rank us number one" is unethical, you SERIOUSLY need to re-evaluate what your definition of that word is.

Spend some time in a 3rd world country or in the foster homes US kids live in, or, take a trip to one of the farms where your food comes from - then you'll REALLY see what unethical is. PFFFFFTTTT - the day I consider someone "saying something" that is LEGAL in the match as unethical is the day I've gone over the edge and need to be committed.

Seriously, your judgemental BS shows exactly what type of person you are - you probably have 0 life experience and no concept of reality with these ideals, spend more time developing the person you are rather than "reporting everyone" for what YOU think is unethical in a stupid MATCH. 🙄

 

[Butch]

In reponse to the original question ...

As others have pointed out, there is no violation of match rules if either PD or applicant expresses an opinion. It is a violation if the opinion of the other party is solicited.

One can debate about whether reporting is "tattletale" behavior. One can debate about how silly the match system is. However, a system is in place with defined rules. Violations of this are not acceptable. I have heard a variety of rumors regarding pre-match agreements (rule violation) or programs "dropping out" of the match to take a candidate. These activities are not victimless. Applicants spend a lot of time and money traveling to interview at programs. A LOT of time and money.

My sense is that the majority of PDs are honest and the rule-violators are few and consistent from year to year.

 

[KluverBucy]

Nice to see you hopped right back on top of that high horse. First of all, if you think we police ourselves you are demented.

Secondly, your comment on how ethical all your fortune 500 buddies are is ludicrous, and deserved to be roundly ripped, as it was. I'm not too sure what your business background consists of, but it clearly doesn't get you too far. Every industry involved with money is involved with corruption - some more than others. The physicians I know are often jaded but still, as a group, are not even close to as corrupt as the higher ups in various businesses (once again, as a group).

Where the he!! do you get off asking us all to show "honorable behavior", insinuating this is what is gonna change tort reform. Put down your Actiq suckers, rip off those Duragesic patches and slowly welcome yourself back to the real world. 😀

i thought you were supposed to lick those Duragesic patches? no wonder i had intractable emesis for quite some time. not to mention my rock-bottom CD4 count, but that's a different story all in itself...