Penalized for sick days??

[NRAI2001]

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So I have a friend that went through a recent traumatic experience where she had a miscarriage... because of this she took 1 sick day ( she's a third year and it's the first sick day she took during residency).

Her residency is not only requiring her to make this day up but to also do an extra call shift.. their policy is that for every sick day you take you have to make up double the hours. She took off a 24 hour shift so they re asking her to make up two 24 hour call shifts.

My questions:

1) is it legal for the program to ask her to make up any days at all (given the fact they are given upto 10 sick days a year).

2) does it seem legal that they are basically penalizing you for taking a sick day for what was a serious matter?

I can see that this is causing her a lot of stress. The person that was on jeopardy that was called in is asking her to "pay back". She went as far as asking her to do 4 12 hour shifts to make up the "48 hrs" that are "paid back"?

To me this seems very illegal? This is particular to her department because the other depts at her institution do not do this.

 

[mcl]

So I have a friend that went through a recent traumatic experience where she had a miscarriage... because of this she took 1 sick day ( she's a third year and it's the first sick day she took during residency).

Her residency is not only requiring her to make this day up but to also do an extra call shift.. their policy is that for every sick day you take you have to make up double the hours. She took off a 24 hour shift so they re asking her to make up two 24 hour call shifts.

My questions:

1) is it legal for the program to ask her to make up any days at all (given the fact they are given upto 10 sick days a year).

2) does it seem legal that they are basically penalizing you for taking a sick day for what was a serious matter?

I can see that this is causing her a lot of stress. The person that was on jeopardy that was called in is asking her to "pay back". She went as far as asking her to do 4 12 hour shifts to make up the "48 hrs" that are "paid back"?

To me this seems very illegal? This is particular to her department because the other depts at her institution do not do this.

Ask your friend to look in her program's policy manual (every program has to have one that's updated and distributed to residents annually). If the policy is there and is being applied to all of the residents, it may sound awful but there isn't really an issue. If it's not in the manual, she'd have a case to make if she wanted to press the point. If it's in the policy manual and the residents as a group don't like the policy, they can address the issue through the end of year program evaluation (every program does one) and/or through the Program Evaluation Committee (every program has one). Resident wellness is a big topic right now, and I think leave policies fall within that realm.

Our residents are very cognizant of call totals, and we do want the numbers to be as close to even as possible at the end of the year. That said, we don't expect double the time, and we don't expect payback to be immediate if the situation requires a little flexibility (which I think suffering a miscarriage would). And the time being paid back has to fit within the duty hours, which is another complicating factor of the double-hours payback policy.

 

[Mass Effect]

I don't know about the legalities, but programs like this should be publicly outed, in my opinion.

 

[IM2GI]

So I have a friend that went through a recent traumatic experience where she had a miscarriage... because of this she took 1 sick day ( she's a third year and it's the first sick day she took during residency).

Her residency is not only requiring her to make this day up but to also do an extra call shift.. their policy is that for every sick day you take you have to make up double the hours. She took off a 24 hour shift so they re asking her to make up two 24 hour call shifts.

My questions:

1) is it legal for the program to ask her to make up any days at all (given the fact they are given upto 10 sick days a year).

2) does it seem legal that they are basically penalizing you for taking a sick day for what was a serious matter?

I can see that this is causing her a lot of stress. The person that was on jeopardy that was called in is asking her to "pay back". She went as far as asking her to do 4 12 hour shifts to make up the "48 hrs" that are "paid back"?

To me this seems very illegal? This is particular to her department because the other depts at her institution do not do this.

It is not unreasonable to tell residents that if you pull jeopardy, you have to pay back a jeopardy day. If there is no pay back, a small minority become jeopardy super-users. Some programs have payback, some do not.

Someone had to be pulled to cover for her. It is program specific how/if you have to pay that coverage back.

There's no question that her reason for not coming in was legitimate, but IMO you are not looking at it from the person who was pulled perspective. Her program should have some sort of policy, whether it is paying the person back, or paying back the jeopardy day, if that is the expectation.

 

[NRAI2001]

It is not unreasonable to tell residents that if you pull jeopardy, you have to pay back a jeopardy day. If there is no pay back, a small minority become jeopardy super-users. Some programs have payback, some do not.

Someone had to be pulled to cover for her. It is program specific how/if you have to pay that coverage back.

There's no question that her reason for not coming in was legitimate, but IMO you are not looking at it from the person who was pulled perspective. Her program should have some sort of policy, whether it is paying the person back, or paying back the jeopardy day, if that is the expectation.

Why give "sick days" then? Her program actually only gives them 3 weeks of vacation a year and a week of "sick leave/days".

I do understand evening out the calls by the end or within some reasonable amount of time but the person that was pulled for jeopardy is totally looking to take advantage of the situation and wants her double time pay back.. and because of how things have been done in the past and few people actually care enough to do anything the chiefs are just going along with it... saying this is what the PD would want etc etc.

I just don't see how requiring someone to pay back allotted sick leave time nonetheless penalize them by making them do extra calls if they use sick leave..how is that legal?

 

[IM2GI]

Why give "sick days" then? Her program actually only gives them 3 weeks of vacation a year and a week of "sick leave/days".

I do understand evening out the calls by the end or within some reasonable amount of time but the person that was pulled for jeopardy is totally looking to take advantage of the situation and wants her double time pay back..

I just don't see how requiring someone to pay back allotted sick leave time nonetheless penalize them by making them do extra calls if they use sick leave..how is that legal?

It is naive to think that doctors get "sick days." We are a unique profession. The work goes on and someone has to do it.

What considerate/professional people do in your friends situation, is to thank the person for covering for them on short notice, and ask what shift they can cover to pay it back.

 

[nlax30]

It is naive to think that doctors get "sick days." We are a unique profession. The work goes on and someone has to do it.

Eh, not necessarily. Sometimes clinic patients get rescheduled for another day or a procedure/surgery gets moved to another day. A partner may pick up some of the slack and see some patients that need to be seen that day but there is work that just doesn't get done that day and gets moved. We're human as well.

What considerate/professional people do in your friends situation, is to thank the person for covering for them on short notice, and ask what shift they can cover to pay it back.

I agree. Though if I had a classmate in that situation and I covered a shift for them I would not ask or expect that they make it up, they've been through enough. If they wanted a day off to go to a wedding or something then yea, I'll cover and they can make up it up for me but for this reason? Of course not.....

 

[deleted480308]

It is naive to think that doctors get "sick days." We are a unique profession. The work goes on and someone has to do it.

What considerate/professional people do in your friends situation, is to thank the person for covering for them on short notice, and ask what shift they can cover to pay it back.

Docs do get sick days...we aren't omnipotent. Sometimes you just don't go in

 

[IM2GI]

Docs do get sick days...we aren't omnipotent. Sometimes you just don't go in

I guess I phrased it poorly. Most jobs you can call in sick with minimal disruptions.

I just didn't like the vibe that this person was so put off that they may have to payback in some form for taking 2-days off, justified or not.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Interesting that there are two active threads about sick time.

We've had multiple sick policies over the years. None are perfect, you pick your poison.

One option is the "pay back" system. You can miss any day you want, but you have to pay it back. Double payback is simply punitive and mean. Payback systems really disincentivize absences, so you only have people out sick when it's "serious". But then it seems mean to people who are "really sick". Plus the entire payback system fails at the end of the year -- what do you do if a graduating resident gets sick right near the end of the year -- there's usually no way to pay anyone back.

The other option is a non pay back system. We have someone on "backup" for all PGY levels (who is doing an elective). If someone calls in sick and needs to be replaced, then this person is tapped. No pay back is expected -- we "pay it forward" instead. You may be asked to cover someone, but then when you're ill someone else covers you. The problem is possible abuse - someone will call in at the drop of a hat, or for reasons that others feel is bogus. One classic example is for a child illness or snow day -- your kid is ill and sent home from daycare, or it's a snow day so you need to stay home with child. Anyone using a "sick" day for this creates a huge amount of emotion -- those without kids usually think it's ridic, and those with kids divide into two groups -- those who empathize and agree, and those who think and do have a back up plan so that when this happens, it's not a work issue.

We have settled on the latter. I worried about abuse, but honestly it tends to manage itself. Someone who calls in ill frequently rapidly discovers that none of their colleagues is willing to switch/cover anything with them any more. Plus we cap the number of sick days you can miss -- anything beyond that needs to be added to the end of your residency and made up. Last, we combined sick days with personal days, and that also puts some reasonable pressure on people not to take a sick day for very minor complaints.

As far as "legal", as mentioned there isn't a ton of law about this. It's all program policy. Some fields have specific numbers of shifts that have to be completed, so if you miss some, you need to make them up. Others are more flexible. I do think the double payback is needlessly draconian.

 

[rokshana]

Why give "sick days" then? Her program actually only gives them 3 weeks of vacation a year and a week of "sick leave/days".

I do understand evening out the calls by the end or within some reasonable amount of time but the person that was pulled for jeopardy is totally looking to take advantage of the situation and wants her double time pay back.. and because of how things have been done in the past and few people actually care enough to do anything the chiefs are just going along with it... saying this is what the PD would want etc etc.

I just don't see how requiring someone to pay back allotted sick leave time nonetheless penalize them by making them do extra calls if they use sick leave..how is that legal?

so she can get paid for the day that she took off...however that doesn't mean that the program can't ask for the call or whatever was covered by jeopardy to be paid back...though double time as paybackIMHO is a little much...and the resident that is demanding payback of 48 hours for the 24 they gave is pretty ****ty, especially if they know the reason for the sick day (the extra 24 going back in to the jeopardy pool makes more sense than the resident that was pulled getting a 2-fer).

 

[Crayola227]

thankfully and cursefully my program was so tiny, that it was like impossible to miss a day without every single person knowing why, suspecting why, or just knowing it was a huge deal it even happened

in the right system with the right group, no one worries about payback

I was lucky that my life was such outside the hospital (sad and totally unmeaningful) that if there was any way to cover for someone, I *was there*
even so, set your attitude to "I have nothing better/more important to do outside the hospital than the hospital" (I only exclude children old enough to notice you're not there) and you will do well.

when sick days happen for the right reasons (Jesus God a miscarriage???) it's a privilege to be the person to work an extra day and give some caretaker love to one of your own

isn't that why we became doctors in the first ****ing place?

if I can work a shift and crawl on my bloody hands and knees to say to my colleague, "no payback," that's a gift and a feather in my cap

listen, you all are quick to point out how much I suck as a doctor on this board, I'll tell you the one way I ever was that got anyone to ever give a single **** about me

cover your peers for their miscarriage without complaint, and that will do things for you a day off never could

 

[Crayola227]

TLDR
if you approach residency with the right attitude,
you will never take off a day off someone shouldn't be *glad* to cover,
and you will never cover a day you aren't *glad* to
no one will have to count hours
get your heads on straight
IDGAF what is going on, if you have one more shift or hour or note or order in you to help someone, DO IT

 

[Raryn]

We had a jeopardy system (one member of each class on jeopardy at each time) that would only be invoked if you called in sick on an inpatient rotation.

Call in sick on an elective/clinic/consult service? The attendings have to suck it up and see patients if necessary.

Call in sick on an inpatient service? If it's a regular 7-5pm M-F workday, no payback needed. Theoretically the person who got called in to cover you would have worked those hours anyway (though maybe not really if they were on the derm rotation...). If it's a call shift, night, or weekend, you owed the person who got called in to cover you the equivalent of that shift. It was up to the two of you to figure out what shift you'd pay them back with.

We had 12 sick days/year or something. I don't know of anyone who used all of them in any year (pregnancy leave exempted). People were pretty damn good about not calling in sick on an inpatient service where a colleague had to cover unless they were truly ill, but had different thresholds for calling in sick on electives/consult services. No one truly abused it... but I can't say there weren't a few personal days taken here and there.

 

[nlax30]

We had a jeopardy system (one member of each class on jeopardy at each time) that would only be invoked if you called in sick on an inpatient rotation.

Call in sick on an elective/clinic/consult service? The attendings have to suck it up and see patients if necessary.

Call in sick on an inpatient service? If it's a regular 7-5pm M-F workday, no payback needed. Theoretically the person who got called in to cover you would have worked those hours anyway (though maybe not really if they were on the derm rotation...). If it's a call shift, night, or weekend, you owed the person who got called in to cover you the equivalent of that shift. It was up to the two of you to figure out what shift you'd pay them back with.

We had 12 sick days/year or something. I don't know of anyone who used all of them in any year (pregnancy leave exempted). People were pretty damn good about not calling in sick on an inpatient service where a colleague had to cover unless they were truly ill, but had different thresholds for calling in sick on electives/consult services. No one truly abused it... but I can't say there weren't a few personal days taken here and there.

This is how my IM program sort of handled this issue. We were a small unopposed IM program if on a specialty consult month or outpatient then nothing really needed covering and life went on. Even if on inpatient medicine there were a few teams and 3 on each time so the others just covered your patients and dealt with it.

Only real issues was on overnight call, weekend call or night float. We didn't have "backup" call pre-assigned so it was usually the Chief calling around to find someone who was available to come in and cover with the understanding that the person out would then make up a shift for that person which we left between them. Worked for us as we were small enough where everyone knew everyone else pretty well to not abuse the system. I could certainly see not working well in other programs though.

 

[NRAI2001]

At my program we basically have what others have described. The person on "clinic" doc or someone on an elective rotation will be called in to cover for the person. No one is expected to make up anything. Obviously if someone is abusing the system people will catch wind quickly and that resident will be dealt with one way or another I m sure.

My question was basically two part:

1) Is it illegal to ask someone to make up a sick day contracted to you? I wouldn't fight my residency hard about this if they really insisted on making it up as crappy as it is. This IMO is likely to be illegal but not worth fighting for

2) Is it legal to penalize someone for using a contracted sick day by making them do double calls if they call in sick? This is something I would fight because IMO these seems to be severely illegal and more importantly very insensitive.

Basically a law suit waiting to happen, especially in a situation were a women has a miscarriage and uses one of her 10 contracted sick days (the first time shes ever used a sick day during residency). Basically put that in-front of a jury. A young family med doctor suffers a miscarriage and instead of her work place providing her with a supportive environment they penalize her for using what is contracted to her?? I doubt the hospitals/universities lawyer wouldn't let this get very far....

 

[Raryn]

At my program we basically have what others have described. The person on "clinic" doc or someone on an elective rotation will be called in to cover for the person. No one is expected to make up anything. Obviously if someone is abusing the system people will catch wind quickly and that resident will be dealt with one way or another I m sure.

My question was basically two part:

1) Is it illegal to ask someone to make up a sick day contracted to you? I wouldn't fight my residency hard about this if they really insisted on making it up as crappy as it is. This IMO is likely to be illegal but not worth fighting for

2) Is it legal to penalize someone for using a contracted sick day by making them do double calls if they call in sick? This is something I would fight because IMO these seems to be severely illegal and more importantly very insensitive.

Basically a law suit waiting to happen, especially in a situation were a women has a miscarriage and uses one of her 10 contracted sick days (the first time shes ever used a sick day during residency). Basically put that in-front of a jury. A young family med doctor suffers a miscarriage and instead of her work place providing her with a supportive environment they penalize her for using what is contracted to her?? I doubt the hospitals/universities lawyer wouldn't let this get very far....

There's not even a US requirement for your employer to offer you paid sick leave outside of a few cities and I think two states that passed their own. Policies surrounding how sick leave is enacted are more or less completely up to the employer.

What would she sue for?

 

[NRAI2001]

There's not even a US requirement for your employer to offer you paid sick leave outside of a few cities and I think two states that passed their own. Policies surrounding how sick leave is enacted are more or less completely up to the employer.

What would she sue for?

No law suit.. I m just saying the program should recognize the potential for one. Breaking a contract and penalizing a grieving person for using what is contracted to them instead of providing a supportive environment for them.

 

[Raryn]

No law suit.. I m just saying the program should recognize the potential for one. Breaking a contract and penalizing a grieving person for using what is contracted to them instead of providing a supportive environment for them.

She was guaranteed a sick day. She got her sick day. Contract fulfilled.

Does the contract say she is guaranteed a sick day without need to make up the time? Presumably not, since her program has a clear policy of making up time (as well as punitive 2x payback, which is stupid IMO, but not illegal).

 

[DrBowtie]

No law suit.. I m just saying the program should recognize the potential for one. Breaking a contract and penalizing a grieving person for using what is contracted to them instead of providing a supportive environment for them.

A potentially similar situation would be vacation days. You are contractually given vacation days but some programs are very restrictive on when it can be taken.

 

[NRAI2001]

She was guaranteed a sick day. She got her sick day. Contract fulfilled.

Does the contract say she is guaranteed a sick day without need to make up the time? Presumably not, since her program has a clear policy of making up time (as well as punitive 2x payback, which is stupid IMO, but not illegal).

I m not sure what her contract says but I m sure there is not mention of needing to or not needing to make up sick days.

If you have to make up the day then so be it. Its the punitive aspect of the doing 2xpayback that is especially insensitive.

 

[gutonc]

If you have to make up the day then so be it. Its the punitive aspect of the doing 2xpayback that is especially insensitive.

Nobody is arguing this point. Her program (and the resident that had to cover it) are being total douchean liners about this double payback thing.

But, as with most things in residency, this is not the hill your friend should decide to die on.

 

[Crayola227]

there is certainly a potential for a suit alleging discrimination or possibly ADA if and only if she can relate needing the sick day related to an ADA covered condition or she can cough up evidence these practices were unfairly leveled at her (evidence that others had sick days and did not do double payback across the board, supports "capricious")

Miscarriage might not qualify. "Acute grief reaction" from the DSM and documented difficulty in one or more important areas of functioning? I don't know, I'd have to read the verbiage of what's covered. Also, it matters how well things are documented for it to stick.

I agree with the others above there's not much here and it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

Is there something an attorney could make of this if you set it up all right and a lot of things were in place? Maybe, but not likely.

 

[bannie22]

I dont think most humans want to abuse sick days.

However, having no sick days is just abuse itself.

 

[rokshana]

At my program we basically have what others have described. The person on "clinic" doc or someone on an elective rotation will be called in to cover for the person. No one is expected to make up anything. Obviously if someone is abusing the system people will catch wind quickly and that resident will be dealt with one way or another I m sure.

My question was basically two part:

1) Is it illegal to ask someone to make up a sick day contracted to you? I wouldn't fight my residency hard about this if they really insisted on making it up as crappy as it is. This IMO is likely to be illegal but not worth fighting for

2) Is it legal to penalize someone for using a contracted sick day by making them do double calls if they call in sick? This is something I would fight because IMO these seems to be severely illegal and more importantly very insensitive.

Basically a law suit waiting to happen, especially in a situation were a women has a miscarriage and uses one of her 10 contracted sick days (the first time shes ever used a sick day during residency). Basically put that in-front of a jury. A young family med doctor suffers a miscarriage and instead of her work place providing her with a supportive environment they penalize her for using what is contracted to her?? I doubt the hospitals/universities lawyer wouldn't let this get very far....

don't get me wrong, i feel for her, but her miscarriage doesn't make her taking a sick day off any more legit from the person with a 102 fever and the flu (in fact, the 102 fever with the flu should definitely take the sick day)...she took a sick day and having PAID sick days does just that PAY her money for a day she didn't come into work because she was sick...and how your program deals with her payback is up to the program...if the policy is the double payback thing, well its a TERRIBLE policy, it is what it is...if your program wants to take into account her reason and be sympathetic they can and just say that payback isn't necessary or that the double payback isn't necessary...whatever, but i doubt that there is any thing illegal about it.

 

[AvaMarie]

Where is the compassion for this woman? Her unborn child died. It's not simple thing. It is one of the most heart breaking things that can happen to a woman. Situations such as these should be given more care and support then what I'm seeing or hearing. Yes the worm continues but if our patients want excellent care then we need to take care of ourselves and each other.

 

[rokshana]

Where is the compassion for this woman? Her unborn child died. It's not simple thing. It is one of the most heart breaking things that can happen to a woman. Situations such as these should be given more care and support then what I'm seeing or hearing. Yes the worm continues but if our patients want excellent care then we need to take care of ourselves and each other.

and on that aspect her program didn't seem to quibble about her taking a sick day...they probably wouldn't have if she had taken more than one...but it does that mean that she shouldn't pay back the person that did do her work for her? How do you decide that one heartache is harder than others?

most here agree the double payback it harsh and the person who did do the work asking for the double payback is a bit douchey...and her program probably should be able to say just do the payback for the hours you missed...but i'm sure the person who takes a sick day because their mother died, or their child is gravely ill in the icu, or they themselves are doing chemo are going to feel that they are deserving of the same compassion...but just like the other parts of residency... you keep your head down and deal with it.

 

[icd22]

I get it now... you don't lose your humanity in medical school, you lose it in residency. Intern year, here I come! And FYI rokshana, I would rather have to come in with a 102 fever and a flue rather than after a miscarriage. There is Advil for fever, and tamiflu, and whatever home remedies grandma prescribes, but tell me, what can you take after a miscarriage to help it go away? And yes, people should ALSO be able to go to their mom's funeral and take a leave of absence if their child is in the ICU or if they are getting chemo to fight for their lives.

 

[Crayola227]

I get it now... you don't lose your humanity in medical school, you lose it in residency. Intern year, here I come! And FYI rokshana, I would rather have to come in with a 102 fever and a flue rather than after a miscarriage. There is Advil for fever, and tamiflu, and whatever home remedies grandma prescribes, but tell me, what can you take after a miscarriage to help it go away? And yes, people should ALSO be able to go to their mom's funeral and take a leave of absence if their child is in the ICU or if they are getting chemo to fight for their lives.

But be ready to pay it back double!

I dunno, I feel more upset when I feel like I can't get a day for a funeral than when I'm called on to work an extra day for someone else going through that kind stuff.

You would hope there would be the right kind of compassion and consideration for each other, that the person taking the day thinks of the person having to cover, and the person having to cover is the one to suck it up.

Admittedly, it's probably easier in a small program to have that kind of loyalty.

In order to attend my parent's funeral, I had to immediately work 14 days in a row inpt. I've done other 14 day stretches on inpt medicine, like the ICU. Having to do that ruins my day so to speak, but far less than seeing my colleagues suffer because they can't get a day they should.

I would say suck it up and work the coverage over telling people to suck it up and work the payback.

The person needing the day is suffering more than the person providing coverage for it if they're acting ethically, and you would hope everyone remembers this.

 

[bannie22]

This even being a discussion is silly.
I can never understand how there is complete lack of empathy within the field that preaches the most about it.

 

[IM2GI]

This even being a discussion is silly.
I can never understand how there is complete lack of empathy within the field that preaches the most about it.

Clearly your "pre-podiatry" experiences are relevant.

No one is saying this person should have come into work, or that taking the days off was not justified. The reality is that not coming to work has consequences for other people, and the payback of that time is up to the policies of the program.

If Im supposed to be off/on research, and I get jeopardized to cover for a colleague, I greatly appreciate it when they return the favor.

 

[Crayola227]

Clearly your "pre-podiatry" experiences are relevant.

No one is saying this person should have come into work, or that taking the days off was not justified. The reality is that not coming to work has consequences for other people, and the payback of that time is up to the policies of the program.

If Im supposed to be off/on research, and I get jeopardized to cover for a colleague, I greatly appreciate it when they return the favor.

I'm all for returning the favor. Say you get the flu. As soon as you're well again, which should be in short order, making it up is no big deal.

If you've had a family death, rape, or miscarriage, then likely for a little while even regular work is going to be a burden for a mad minute. We definitely shouldn't expect payback (14 day stint to cover someone vs the 14 day stint you do in the wake of your miscarriage) while someone is still struggling despite being back to work.

There was a concept of payback at my program, but most people would wave it off, unless they too actually needed it. Some people never did and the payback never happened.

In larger programs, I've heard of a system where people who haven't paid back are put to the top of the list of residents that are in the pool to be pulled. So like a year down the line they whenever they're on elective or whatever they're the first pulled for someone else.

 

[NRAI2001]

I get it now... you don't lose your humanity in medical school, you lose it in residency. Intern year, here I come! And FYI rokshana, I would rather have to come in with a 102 fever and a flue rather than after a miscarriage. There is Advil for fever, and tamiflu, and whatever home remedies grandma prescribes, but tell me, what can you take after a miscarriage to help it go away? And yes, people should ALSO be able to go to their mom's funeral and take a leave of absence if their child is in the ICU or if they are getting chemo to fight for their lives.

Rokshana is just cold hearted .... she was so on the valuemd forums and she is so here as well. Someone needs to find happiness in their own life so that shes not always such a drag.. find some compassion for your colleagues.

I dont know how you can compare someone with a fever to someone who just lost their mom, child, unborn fetus...etc

 

[bannie22]

Clearly your "pre-podiatry" experiences are relevant.

No one is saying this person should have come into work, or that taking the days off was not justified. The reality is that not coming to work has consequences for other people, and the payback of that time is up to the policies of the program.

If Im supposed to be off/on research, and I get jeopardized to cover for a colleague, I greatly appreciate it when they return the favor.

well done fellow

 

[rokshana]

I get it now... you don't lose your humanity in medical school, you lose it in residency. Intern year, here I come! And FYI rokshana, I would rather have to come in with a 102 fever and a flue rather than after a miscarriage. There is Advil for fever, and tamiflu, and whatever home remedies grandma prescribes, but tell me, what can you take after a miscarriage to help it go away? And yes, people should ALSO be able to go to their mom's funeral and take a leave of absence if their child is in the ICU or if they are getting chemo to fight for their lives.

yes, but that is thinking about the impact on you but not your patients and fellow residents...you are febrile, you are contagious...children can't stay in daycare if they have the slightest fever for fear of infecting the other children, but an intern can be sick as a dog and contagious and take care of a patient s/p BMT? as far as i know a miscarriage is not contagious...

and my point exactly...why is the pain of miscarriage any more than that of a parent with a sick child or a child with a dying parent?

I just have to say that I'm glad I went to a program that placed family 1st...I had issues with a grandmother and a father both having critical, life threatening illness during residency and all my chiefs ever said was "go, we'll take care of things here" and not one of the people who covered my work asked for payback...in turn I covered people when they needed it and didn't ask for payback either...and this instilled a culture where if someone is having a crisis, needs time off, or otherwise needs help, we had each others back...

 

[rokshana]

Rokshana is just cold hearted .... she was so on the valuemd forums and she is so here as well. Someone needs to find happiness in their own life so that shes not always such a drag.. find some compassion for your colleagues.

I dont know how you can compare someone with a fever to someone who just lost their mom, child, unborn fetus...etc

1st i find it interesting that you call me cold hearted when you were constantly asking my advice when you and your SO had issues and were asking for advice and I answered ALL of your many, many questions ...

and second I'm not a millennial that feels entitled to have everything revolve around them...not for a moment did you actually think about how coming in sick with a fever impacts those around you...a febrile resident is an INFECTIOUS resident and puts a risk, medical risk, those around them...their fellow residents, and more importantly their patients...how are you going to feel if you valiantly come in with your flu and one of your ICU patients now is infected by YOU?

and finally you need to go back and re read my response...i pointedly said that the heartache for a miscarriage is not above that of someone who has lost or is losing their child, spouse, parent, or themselves...

and the program where this resident is never said that she couldn't take the sick day...she had her sick day and was presumably paid for the sick day, but her program has consequences for taking the time off...i would imagine she knew of said consequences...the fact that the person who covered her is actually asking for the double payback and the program that sets policy of a double payback is more telling of the program's culture.

 

[Apollyon]

When my Dad died, I called one of the chiefs at 12:30am, and said I had to go. My colleague did 3 of my shifts when I was gone. No payback. And this was at Duke (which is NOT a place where the phrase "touchy feely" might EVER apply). What goes around, comes around.

 

[ANCAdoc]

While what the program did was certainly legal (original question) I would suggest this is a terrible way to deal with the situation. This kind of mentality breeds un-compassionate physicians, many of whom propagate and truly believe in such policies. The lifestyle as a resident is tough and one doesn't need these kind of ridiculous policies to break down residents into one of conformity and compliance (i.e., never missing work). I'm glad my partners have my back, and I have theirs, when life happens.

Do you ever wonder why physicians have a high rate of suicide? BS like this doesn't help.

Do you ever wonder why physicians tend not to speak up for our own rights and interests, despite many interest groups rallying against us? (think, conformity and compliance).

Bottom Line, I think the medical community can do better. This kind of behavior is unacceptable. These programs should be identified.

 

[Winged Scapula]

These are emotional topics and users are reminded to remain civil, professional and refrain from personal attacks.

 

[SilentCool]

These are emotional topics and users are reminded to remain civil, professional and refrain from personal attacks.

 

[IM2GI]

I will also point out that there is a difference between a jeopardy pull in a huge IM program with 100 residents, vs. a small residency or fellowship class.

In a huge program, you often have no idea for who/why you were pulled. Payback in those programs is often to the "pool" but not to the individual.