Penn State vs Buffalo (w/ S)

[AstroSidekick]

Hello SDN. As April is already over 25% over and I am still extremely unsure of which school I want to attend, I figured now is the perfect time to ask for advice on which medical school you would attend if you were in my situation. I am deeply conflicted about each of these choices because there are things I love and loathe about each school. Additionally, from my understanding, none of these schools is significantly higher ranked than the others. TLDR towards the bottom.

I am hopeful students at these medical schools can provide insight into their experience and correct any inaccuracies in my post. I tried to organize this large amount of information as best as I could. Please feel free to leave comments, advice, or simply vote (if you have no opinion, please use the "View Result" option in the poll).

Background: I am an FGLI, immigrant, and ORM. I have taken two research gap years in neuroptics. My parents are unable to contribute to my medical education, and thus I will need to pay for every cent through federal loans. My partner (software engineer) will move with me and most likely work remotely.

Career Ambitions: As of now, here are my residency interests: anesthesiology, ophthalmology, orthopedics, and ENT. Medical education and medical humanities are deeply interwoven in why I want to become a physician, so I would like to cultivate these passions throughout medical school. Additionally, I want to eventually be in private practice, making clinical training more important than research opportunities at academic centers in the long term. Nevertheless, I am entirely willing to play this game and do what I need to to get where I want to be in life. Lastly, I am quite motivated to match in SoCal or at least work there as an attending as my brother and his family lives there.

Penn State (waiting to hear back from the UP Curriculum)
+ Impressive match list and I tend to gravitate towards more competitive specialties
+ Home programs in everything I am interested in
+ P/F Preclinicals. Honors/Pass/Fail Clinicals. No ranking.
+ Well-established with great research opportunities
+ Amazing global health opportunities
+ Some of the 3 Year MD opportunities excite me!
- My estimated total COA is $295,000
- Non-NBME exams that use free response questions (implementing MCQ this year?)

Buffalo (10K a year)
+ Preclinical: Pass/Fail for the first 2 years. Clinical: Honors, High Satisfactory, Satisfactory, and Unsatisfactory for the last 2 clinical years
+ 4 hours away from Detroit
+ Happy enough with the match list
- My estimated total COA is $240,000
- Weather is cold and snowy

____________
NOT CONSIDERING THE BELOW. KEEP UP FOR FUTURE PEOPLE IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS!

VCU
+ Impressive match list and I tend to gravitate towards more competitive specialties
+ Home programs in everything I am interested in
+ Facilities are top notch and basically all within the last 10 years
+ P/F Preclinicals. Honors/Pass/Fail Clinicals? Unsure about rankings.
+ Well-established with great research opportunities
+ Richmond seems like my perfect-sized East Coast city (and is close to other cities I love)
+ Some of the 3 Year MD opportunities excite me!
- My estimated total COA is $340,000 (my most expensive option)
- Non-NBME exams

Stony Brook (rejected from their 3-year MD program - since eliminated them)
+ Probably my "most-impressive" acceptance as it's the only Top 50
+ Impressive match list and I tend to gravitate towards more competitive specialties
+ Home programs in everything I am interested in
+ P/F Preclinicals. Honors/Pass/Fail Clinicals. Unsure about rankings.
+ Well-established with great research opportunities
+ Amazing global health opportunities
+ NBME exams
- My estimated total COA is $305,000
- I don’t love the idea of living on Long Island (expensive, cold, and not that close to the city)

Texas A&M
+ By far the weakest match list of these four schools
+ P/F Preclinicals. Honors/Pass/Fail Clinicals. Pretty confident they do rankings.
+ The different campus tracks actually excite me (hoping for Dallas or Round Rock)
+ Texas weather is desirable
+ My estimated total COA is $175,000 (by far my cheapest option)
- Lacks home programs in specialties I am interested in (a huge concern)
- Not an NBME curriculum
- Weak global health opportunities and research output
- Frustrating experiences with admin already (not responding to important emails, passive-aggressive responses, etc...)

On a final note, I am still holding acceptances for OUWB, Buffalo, UTMB, and Texas Tech El Paso. I have crossed these schools out for various reasons like weaker programs/rankings, not an exciting match list, and an admissions admin berating me multiple times (looking at you UTMB). OUWB is the only one I would really consider attending from these four, but they are equally priced to schools I like more. Lastly, I am waiting to hear back from TCU, which would be a game changer (easily toward the top for me personally).

Thank you and I am hoping for some insightful advice and opinions! <3

TLDR: Stony Brook is arguably my most prestigious option but the location is the worst. VCU is my ideal location but is the most expensive. Texas A&M is my cheapest option but lacks the opportunities I want. Penn State seems to be the comprise of everything I am looking for.

.....
Please note: I am genuinely shocked and beyond grateful to have received this much positive attention from medical schools across the country. A year ago today, I thought I would barely escape the medical school application cycle with a single acceptance so to have earned 15+ interviews and 10+ acceptances is beyond my wildest dreams. I hope this post does not come off as bragging or insensitive, and if it does, I apologize.

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[wysdoc]

Are you OOS for Texas?
You must be or else you could only be holding 1 TX admission right now.
The 'Houston" campus for A&M is not in the TMC but at the Willowbrook hospital, about 30 miles northwest of the TMC, outside the outer loop if you know Houston road structure.
Additionally, A&M has just signed an agreement with DHR in Edinburg Texas for residency affiliation, so there is the slight possibility you could be sent there for 3rd and 4th year rotations (not good...)

What is the tuition at OUWB? Great residency matches in anesthesia and the surgical subspecialties and usually in Ophthalmology, though I didn't see any for ophtho this year. Can you bear the cold?

 

[AstroSidekick]

Are you OOS for Texas?
You must be or else you could only be holding 1 TX admission right now.
The 'Houston" campus for A&M is not in the TMC but at the Willowbrook hospital, about 30 miles northwest of the TMC, outside the outer loop if you know Houston road structure.
Additionally, A&M has just signed an agreement with DHR in Edinburg Texas for residency affiliation, so there is the slight possibility you could be sent there for 3rd and 4th year rotations (not good...)

What is the tuition at OUWB? Great residency matches in anesthesia and the surgical subspecialties and usually in Ophthalmology, though I didn't see any for ophtho this year. Can you bear the cold?

Hi @wysdoc, yes, I'm OOS for TX. I'm most likely going to pull my As from UTMB and TTU El Paso sometime this upcoming week, but I'm secretly hoping either of them offer me a scholarship to shake things up. Doubt it but I'll admit that I'm hopeful nonetheless as I know that a large scholarship would heavily sway me to attend. I already withdrew from TTU Lubbock's waitlist earlier this week.

For TAMU's campus designations, I ranked the campus in this order: Dallas, Round Rock, BCS, and Houston. I was told to wait until April 17th for decisions on which campus I will be attending.

My COA of OUWB would be 300K. I'm originally from Michigan (live in a different Northeast state now), so to quote Frozen, "The cold never bothers me anyways." OUWB is a really solid choice with fantastic outcomes, and I probably should be considering them more heavily. However, it's very close to where my parents live, and for personal reasons, that is a huge concern/negative. I would prefer something further from home, but I'm not absolutely against it.

 

[AstroSidekick]

A&M is the cheapest option by $120,000. At A&M, if you go Dallas - BUMC has almost all residency programs, and UTSW is not far away for research. If you go Houston campus - the TMC has every residency possible.

Getting into Stony Brook's 3-year MD would offset the costs, but otherwise, I don't see any reason to turn down A&M's cheap tuition, given you likely have the same chance of matching competitively from A&M as you will from any other school listed. If you get into Stony Brook's 3-year program, it sounds like it might be the choice for you - but - if it were me I'd need to see it in writing before committing.

Penn State has good residency programs and good research, but I'm not convinced it'd be markedly better than hustling at a cheaper school.

As an aside: at UTMB were the actual admin berating you or the admissions? From my experience, admissions people can be pushy but then never interact with you once you're actually a student. Galveston is kind of meh, but UTMB has almost all home-residency programs, is 40 mins from TMC, and is dirt-cheap for attendance. You should make sure you're not preemptively turning down a good option.

Looking at this, it does look like BUMC Dallas has a lot of residency options that I wouldn't mind. However, their round rock location only has FM and IM. Personally, I think if I didn't get Dallas, that would eliminate TAMU. https://www.bswhealth.med/education/Pages/graduate-medical-education.aspx

The UTMB was from one of the Deans of Admissions and that is a whole long story. It doesn't matter anymore because that incident essentially made them DNR for me, especially because I am fortunate to have so many other incredible options.

 

[cvspopcorn]

A lot of great choices, and to be honest I don't think you'd go wrong anywhere! From the way you're talking, it seems like you are choosing predominantly between Penn State and Texas A&M. To that end, I would personally vote for Penn State.

From the way you talk about them, it seems like you're most excited about Penn State- especially with the medical humanities focus and strong global health opportunities, it feels like a really good fit for you. (Side note, if you get into the UP program, I would say Penn State, easily, no doubt!). The ~120k difference in CoA is certainly nothing to scoff at, but considering that Penn State: 1) has home programs in your specialties of choice; 2) has a better match list (which might matter to you especially since you mentioned you're interested in competitive specialties); and 3) has 3 year MD programs you might be interested in, I don't think CoA should be the #1 factor in your decisionmaking. Plus, with the possibility of PSLF and the type of salary you will likely get if you choose a competitive specialty, I feel like this 120k will probably not be a big deal at all ~10 years down the line, whereas your med school experience (especially if it's at a school that has opportunities that are tailor-made for you) will be with you for the rest of your career and life.

All this to say, while I would personally vote for Penn State, I don't think there's any WRONG decision here. Texas A&M is a great option with excellent opportunities as well as the ability to save money; VCU, Stony Brook, OUWB, Buffalo, UTMB, and Texas Tech are also incredible programs that I'm certain you will thrive in. Regardless of what you choose, you will be a physician, and regardless of where you go, your own tenacity, work ethic, and ambition will make the biggest difference to take you where you want to go. I'm sure you'll make the right decision for you. Good luck!

 

[showkayaker]

I would vote VCU. Richmond is an amazing small city if that is what you are looking for. You have lots of nature nearby, like Pony Pasture, as well as a huge variety of culture and diversity in the city. It sounds like VCU has a combination of many of the things you want - location, competitive specialties, a good ranking, p/f.

 

[AstroSidekick]

I would vote VCU. Richmond is an amazing small city if that is what you are looking for. You have lots of nature nearby, like Pony Pasture, as well as a huge variety of culture and diversity in the city. It sounds like VCU has a combination of many of the things you want - location, competitive specialties, a good ranking, p/f.

I'll admit that VCU is #2 on my list because I'm thinking about PSLF pretty heavily. I know it would be a great fit for me but I'm worried about that if I don't get PSLF, then I am setting myself for financial doom

 

[AstroSidekick]

@m1redsox any advice? You always offer great advice on these types of posts

 

[m1redsox]

@m1redsox any advice? You always offer great advice on these types of posts

This is a tough one. Almost overwhelming to think about all of your choices haha.

- One thing I will say is that if Penn State participated in the USWNR rankings, I think it would be ranked similarly to VCU and Stony Brook. So, I don't think that ranking/prestige is really a factor here, especially when you consider that the PD rankings are slightly different and put Stony out of the top 50 and below VCU (all very arbitrary and likely meaningless when we are talking about 3 schools that are reasonably on the same level). With that said, I think it would be reasonable to eliminate Stony Brook. On top of that, you sound more excited about Penn St and it's cheaper, so I'd eliminate VCU.

- I would also agree that OUWB and UTMB are also fantastic options to consider, but I don't necessarily think either is a "better" option than Penn St, TAMU, or VCU if you have personal reasons for disliking them.

- The TA&M COA difference is nothing to scoff at, and if you want to do private practice, then PSLF will probably not be an option for you (unless you happen to work in an underserved area, which would probably put you in the inland empire of SoCal, which is pretty undesirable for most people). So, I agree that it should be a serious consideration. I don't know as much about TA&M, but I would say that, if you can get the campus you want (that has home programs in all your desired specialties), then you should probably go with them.

My apologies if this didn't add much. It looks like I echoed a lot of what @cvspopcorn said.

TL;DR: Penn St vs TAMU: wait until campus placement decisions come out (assuming that is an option). If you get Dallas, then TAMU may be the best choice. If you don't, then Penn State is awesome.

 

[chilly_md]

I agree with the above on waiting to see campus placement.

For most of the competitive specialities the OP listed, the goal is matching. It would be very difficult to match specifically to a program in Southern California.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Agree with m1redsox...If you can get Dallas, then TAMU is probably best for your situation. If not, Penn State.

But also...where do you want to live for 3-4 years? You mentioned Hershey being more rural than anywhere you have lived. Are you familiar with TX and do you want to live there?

For me, with all factors considered, I'd go to Penn State. But that's me.

 

[AstroSidekick]

Agree with m1redsox...If you can get Dallas, then TAMU is probably best for your situation. If not, Penn State.

But also...where do you want to live for 3-4 years? You mentioned Hershey being more rural than anywhere you have lived. Are you familiar with TX and do you want to live there?

For me, with all factors considered, I'd go to Penn State. But that's me.

I'm with you. With all factors considered, Penn State just feels worth it and is the best decision for me, even over TAMU Dallas.

I'm from the Midwest and PA feels more comfortable than Texas, even though I have had blasts visiting a few times. I can get over how rural Hershey is because I like hiking and the Appalachian Trail is right there. There are things that I enjoy doing, even though it's rural. And since I'm confident I want to do something competitive, having home programs outweighs any money I would save attending TAMU.

Stony won't give me any scholarship money as I wasn't selected for an interview with the 3-year MD, so at Penn State, I could also aim for the Ortho 3-Year MD.

 

[chilly_md]

at Penn State, I could also aim for the Ortho 3-Year MD.

When would you find out about this? That would a big opportunity for sure.

 

[AstroSidekick]

When would you find out about this? That would a big opportunity for sure.

I reached out to them about their timeline.

This specific 3-Year program will open its application to students in the first few months of being an M1. I believe they select up to one person per class. Therefore, no student knows until they already matriculate and begin classes at Penn State if they will get the seat or not (changed from years past).

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Stony Brook would not be high on my lift if I had your options. The COL of living in the area is high, especially wrt Hershey. Also, Hershey is a couple hours out of Philly and so it is rural in that sense. But it's not that small a place and so maybe more rural/suburban ? And I don't think it's all that far from the state capital, Harrisburg. Maybe you could visit Hershey?

 

[ohwell1231test]

You seem to be leaning heavily toward Penn State.

I agree with @m1redsox perspective in terms of all the schools being similar in ranking/prestige- don't think that should be a factor here.

Personally, I think it is wise to minimize debt as much as possible, especially because you will be receiving no additional support from your parents. For that, I would have to immediately eliminate VCU.

Have you taken a trip to Hershey yet ? Although it's rural it really doesn't seem that bad. It's close to NYC, Philly,etc. Many students I spoke to from this school told me that often travel to nearby cities and that rural life is extremely manageable.

Not sure what your thoughts are on in terms of work-life balance/overall student happiness- but Penn State also seems to be the winner. Many students report time to pursue hobbies/free time to do things on weekends. I've heard the opposite for SBU and that students often have minimal free time. I can not speak for VCU or the others.

Interested to see which school you pick. Keep us updated @AstroSidekick !

 

[AstroSidekick]

@ohwell1231test Thanks! Yeah, I guess I need to update. I have since withdrawn from Stony Brook, UTMB, and Texas Tech El Paso, and have mentally eliminated VCU and TAMU (plan to withdraw soon!). I'm still extremely hopeful OUWB pulls through with FinAid/Scholarships because I would go there in a heartbeat as it's 20 mins from where I grew up. Buffalo could be a dark horse too as they release scholarships on Thursday.

HOWEVER, I have come to terms with I'm good enough to get into a ton of schools but not great enough to get scholarships. Totally okay because I'm incredibly fortunate to be in this position anyways. My partner and I have been looking at apartments in Hershey and we plan to sign a lease on May 1st. At that point, I'll also withdraw from the Penn State UP WL as well. So, I'm 99% sure I'm going to choose Penn State Hershey, and I'm beyond excited about it!!

 

[user305614]

@ohwell1231test Thanks! Yeah, I guess I need to update. I have since withdrawn from Stony Brook, UTMB, and Texas Tech El Paso, and have mentally eliminated VCU and TAMU (plan to withdraw soon!). I'm still extremely hopeful OUWB pulls through with FinAid/Scholarships because I would go there in a heartbeat as it's 20 mins from where I grew up. Buffalo could be a dark horse too as they release scholarships on Thursday.

HOWEVER, I have come to terms with I'm good enough to get into a ton of schools but not great enough to get scholarships. Totally okay because I'm incredibly fortunate to be in this position anyways. My partner and I have been looking at apartments in Hershey and we plan to sign a lease on May 1st. At that point, I'll also withdraw from the Penn State UP WL as well. So, I'm 99% sure I'm going to choose Penn State Hershey, and I'm beyond excited about it!!

Congratulations! Reading your pros and cons for each school I agree with you that Penn State seems like the best fit for you and your future.

Best of luck and congratulations.

 

[AstroSidekick]

@user305614 @m1redsox @ohwell1231test @chilly_md @Putkernerinthehall Updated with new information! Surprisingly, Buffalo gave me a decent scholarship which will really help reduce my COA between them and Penn State. What thoughts do you have after this scholarship award?

Stick with Penn State or become part of the Bills Mafia!

 

[chilly_md]

I’d choose Buffalo.

 

[ohwell1231test]

This is exciting news !!! Hmmm but definitely still a difficult decision.

I still feel like your pros and preferences align with PSU. Maybe now is the time to try and negotiate a scholarship? Explain what Buffalo gave you and that you’d still love to go to PSU if they can match the tuition.

Maybe also time to analyze what you’re really want in a program… “happy enough with the match list” doesn’t sound convincing to me.

Best of luck ! No matter what you pick you’re going to be a doctor - just do what feels right to you.

 

[lady.gaga]

Hey not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but I am in somewhat similar shoes and after talking with some Buff med students (they recently had that virtual anatomy tour of the school), pre clinicals are internally ranked into quintiles.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

@user305614 @m1redsox @ohwell1231test @chilly_md @Putkernerinthehall Updated with new information! Surprisingly, Buffalo gave me a decent scholarship which will really help reduce my COA between them and Penn State. What thoughts do you have after this scholarship award?

Stick with Penn State or become part of the Bills Mafia!

Wow, another great option. I remember being impressed with Buffalo when considering it a while back. Agree with post upthread about asking PSU to match. I'd do that first. If cost neutral, I'd lean PSU based on your inputs and considerations.

 

[AstroSidekick]

Wow, another great option. I remember being impressed with Buffalo when considering it a while back. Agree with post upthread about asking PSU to match. I'd do that first. If cost neutral, I'd lean PSU based on your inputs and considerations.

Unfortunately I won’t know for Penn State until after May 1st because I was told that the scholarship committee doesn’t meet again until after the narrow to one date

 

[AstroSidekick]

Hey not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but I am in somewhat similar shoes and after talking with some Buff med students (they recently had that virtual anatomy tour of the school), pre clinicals are internally ranked into quintiles.

I completely forgot about that and honestly, that is a pretty big con