Penn v Hopkins

[Jennawitz]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Context- I grew up in Philly suburbs and went to Penn for undergrad. Penn is 1.5 yr preclinical, Hopkins about 1.6 yr (comparable in my eyes). Financial aid packages are the same.

Penn
Pros

• Really loved the school's culture and the vibe of both current and prospective students; can see myself meshing easily and being happy
• Proximity to family/friends
• I like Philly

Cons

• I've volunteered in these hospitals since high school, researched/volunteered at them in college, and scribed at the children's hospital during my gap year. Even though being rotations as a medical student is a different experience, I'm worried I could feel stuck if I do my clinical training in them as well.

Hopkins
Pros

• Totally new place/experience- Johns Hopkins Hospital is an incredible place to branch out for medical education
• More space dedicated to medical students (entire building vs. just 1 floor at Penn)
• Only 1 hr to family, so not significantly different from Penn in terms of that

Cons

• Didn't feel like I vibed as much with prospective students (just seemed less down to earth); am worried that I would have a harder time socially which could make me unhappy, but not sure if these even matters after preclinical years once rotations start??
• Baltimore < Philly

Summary: I'm really really torn on this and would appreciate any input at all.

 

[Woe_is_me23]

Hey! Also choosing between Penn and 2 other schools, so I’m curious to see where this conversation goes.

To be clear— main pro of Penn in your eyes is the student culture (good fit), and the main con is that it feels overly familiar?

I think those hospitals and whatnot will feel very different as a medical student than as an undergrad or high school student.
On the other hand, if you see yourself returning to CHOP or HUP for residency, then going to a different med school may expand your professional connections in productive ways.

 

[TempuraOreos]

Context- I grew up in Philly suburbs and went to Penn for undergrad. Penn is 1.5 yr preclinical, Hopkins about 1.6 yr (comparable in my eyes). Financial aid packages are the same.

Penn
Pros

• Really loved the school's culture and the vibe of both current and prospective students; can see myself meshing easily and being happy
• Proximity to family/friends
• I like Philly

Cons

• I've volunteered in these hospitals since high school, researched/volunteered at them in college, and scribed at the children's hospital during my gap year. Even though being rotations as a medical student is a different experience, I'm worried I could feel stuck if I do my clinical training in them as well.

Hopkins
Pros

• Totally new place/experience- Johns Hopkins Hospital is an incredible place to branch out for medical education
• More space dedicated to medical students (entire building vs. just 1 floor at Penn)
• Only 1 hr to family, so not significantly different from Penn in terms of that

Cons

• Didn't feel like I vibed as much with prospective students (just seemed less down to earth); am worried that I would have a harder time socially which could make me unhappy, but not sure if these even matters after preclinical years once rotations start??
• Baltimore < Philly

Summary: I'm really really torn on this and would appreciate any input at all.

I say go to Penn since you vibed better with students and have your support network there. If you want to switch it up during clinicals see if you can get a few away rotations at Hopkins or wherever that way you can build your professional network still.

 

[DokterMom]

If you've essentially been in Philly your whole life so far, I'd suggest you branch out and try something new. It's not a complete culture shock and you're still close to family - can be better even to be a little further away to limit visits to when you can spare the time.

And most importantly, maintain your ties at Penn, and by choosing Hopkins, you double your network. Two real powerhouses in your portfolio...

 

[puahate]

Branch out go to Hopkins

 

[Jennawitz]

Hey! Also choosing between Penn and 2 other schools, so I’m curious to see where this conversation goes.

To be clear— main pro of Penn in your eyes is the student culture (good fit), and the main con is that it feels overly familiar?

I think those hospitals and whatnot will feel very different as a medical student than as an undergrad or high school student.
On the other hand, if you see yourself returning to CHOP or HUP for residency, then going to a different med school may expand your professional connections in productive ways.

Yes, that's correct!! And I'd definitely like to go outside of the CHOP/HUP network for residency, which I'm hoping I wouldn't get stuck into if I go there for med school?

 

[Jennawitz]

I say go to Penn since you vibed better with students and have your support network there. If you want to switch it up during clinicals see if you can get a few away rotations at Hopkins or wherever that way you can build your professional network still.

Dumb question-- how do away rotations actually work?? As in how many you can do/where you can do them? I lack so much knowledge about the important aspects of clinicals...

 

[TempuraOreos]

Dumb question-- how do away rotations actually work?? As in how many you can do/where you can do them? I lack so much knowledge about the important aspects of clinicals...

I actually am not too aware either of the intricacies. But some of the med students who talked to us during second look said, it something you have to work out with adminstration/advisors and stuff. I know people who are going for something competitive like Ortho or Derm do aways at locations they're interested in going to for residency after they've finished their core clerkships. I did meet a student at Hopkins second look who's SO was in another state and they were getting married so the school help her to arrange a few of her rotations in her partner's state. Power of Hopkins and schools like it I guess.

 

[efle]

Interesting to hear the culture was better at Penn, until recently they were infamous for being a bunch of overly intense gunners because they still had graded M2 (whereas HMS, Hopkins and Stanford all became Pass/Fail many years ago). Maybe things are changing!

If you're sick of living at Penn and being in the Penn hospital system, would probs go to Hopkins. If you still like Penn stay at Penn. In all honesty the students that go to these schools are indistinguishable from one another and now that they're both Pass/Fail they can both be as chill as you want.

 

[Jennawitz]

Interesting to hear the culture was better at Penn, until recently they were infamous for being a bunch of overly intense gunners because they still had graded M2 (whereas HMS, Hopkins and Stanford all became Pass/Fail many years ago). Maybe things are changing!

If you're sick of living at Penn and being in the Penn hospital system, would probs go to Hopkins. If you still like Penn stay at Penn. In all honesty the students that go to these schools are indistinguishable from one another and now that they're both Pass/Fail they can both be as chill as you want.

What makes you say the students are indistinguishable from each other? Obviously in terms of caliber and intelligence yeah, but I've talked to several people who definitely felt a difference in the vibe of students between the two schools.

 

[efle]

What makes you say the students are indistinguishable from each other? Obviously in terms of caliber and intelligence yeah, but I've talked to several people who definitely felt a difference in the vibe of students between the two schools.

I mean they select for the same kinds of candidates, namely straight A students from the same feeder undergrads with high test scores and lots of research background, and research gap years galore. They're regionally close to each other too. And at least from my interview days at each the interviewees and current students were pretty indistinguishable, though I didn't do Penn's second look weekend so that's a limited impression. I'd wager the majority of people attending one of the two also interviewed at the other. Oh, and the match lists are extremely similar every year, it's not like one is full of intense surgical subspecialist matches while the other is more lifestyle oriented or anything like that.

What's the vibe difference people describe? Back when I was applying WashU and Penn had much more stressed/intense students because they both had graded preclinical, but maybe now Penn has done a 180 change and makes Hopkins seem much more intense?

 

[meronebib]

I mean they select for the same kinds of candidates, namely straight A students from the same feeder undergrads with high test scores and lots of research background, and research gap years galore. They're regionally close to each other too. And at least from my interview days at each the interviewees and current students were pretty indistinguishable, though I didn't do Penn's second look weekend so that's a limited impression. I'd wager the majority of people attending one of the two also interviewed at the other. Oh, and the match lists are extremely similar every year, it's not like one is full of intense surgical subspecialist matches while the other is more lifestyle oriented or anything like that.

What's the vibe difference people describe? Back when I was applying WashU and Penn had much more stressed/intense students because they both had graded preclinical, but maybe now Penn has done a 180 change and makes Hopkins seem much more intense?

I don’t think so. The students I met at Penn said that many of them were still very competitive because of the internal ranking. I mean, I’m sure the competitiveness factor also plays a role into why Penn consistently has one of the highest Step 1 averages in the nation. The students work hard there (and to OP, there’s nothing wrong with that).

 

[Woe_is_me23]

Yes, that's correct!! And I'd definitely like to go outside of the CHOP/HUP network for residency, which I'm hoping I wouldn't get stuck into if I go there for med school?

To be clear, you definitely won’t get stuck at CHOP/HUP. It’s more like if you decided you loved those programs then you would have a much better opportunity to do residency there if you wanted to. But truly I think your residency options will be vast from either institution.

Also, to clarify on intense/gunner vibes: Penn went P/F 2 or 3 years ago I believe. I’m certain that this has had a big effect on the vibe of the school. By comparison, I talked to an older doc a while back who went to Hopkins. He described it as a very cutthroat place. He was low key miserable.
I think his perspective has little bearing on the school now— which is just to say that vibes change quickly, especially after grading changes. AND, vibes change a lot year to year/class to class.

 

[Woe_is_me23]

I don’t think so. The students I met at Penn said that many of them were still very competitive because of the internal ranking.

Really? I asked a ton of students about this and all of them were adamant that the internal ranking didn’t make them competitive. They said the ranking has such a small role in determining AOA that it was pretty negligible

But obviously people put on a different face when they’re trying to recruit students ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[meronebib]

Really? I asked a ton of students about this and all of them were adamant that the internal ranking didn’t make them competitive. They said the ranking has such a small role in determining AOA that it was pretty negligible

But obviously people put on a different face when they’re trying to recruit students ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hahaha yeah I mean, I spoke to 2 students during my interview 😛 I honestly think medical school is mostly how you make it. There are gunners at all top schools (I mean, many were gunners in premed to get into these competitive places). I’ve heard the internal ranking is really negligible for AOA too. It could just be that the students I met happened to be in the uber-competitive, born-4-ortho cliques. I’m sure there are many other students that are a lot more relaxed, as is the case with every other medical school.

Edit: I will also add that one of the students told me that there really wasn’t any concern among the students for matching where they wanted, considering Penn’s match lists are arguably some of the best in the nation. I personally found that to be comforting.

 

[efle]

To be clear, you definitely won’t get stuck at CHOP/HUP. It’s more like if you decided you loved those programs then you would have a much better opportunity to do residency there if you wanted to. But truly I think your residency options will be vast from either institution.

Also, to clarify on intense/gunner vibes: Penn went P/F 2 or 3 years ago I believe. I’m certain that this has had a big effect on the vibe of the school. By comparison, I talked to an older doc a while back who went to Hopkins. He described it as a very cutthroat place. He was low key miserable.
I think his perspective has little bearing on the school now— which is just to say that vibes change quickly, especially after grading changes. AND, vibes change a lot year to year/class to class.

I've also heard similar reputation about hopkins prior to the shift to pass fail 10-15 years ago, I guess it's finally happening for Penn now too!

But I didn't realize they still kept their internal ranking going. Seems like that makes the P/F switch pretty disingenuous, really it's still graded now they just dont tell you where you stand! Hopkins completely removed all comparative language from the MSPE (not even Quartile) and moved AOA to after the match so there's zero reason to gun, ever

 

[Woe_is_me23]

But I didn't realize they still kept their internal ranking going. Seems like that makes the P/F switch pretty disingenuous, really it's still graded now they just dont tell you where you stand!

I think that takes it a little far. Don’t get me wrong: I really don’t want any kind of comparison to my classmates if I can help it— I do not understand how that’s productive. However, I think the ranking is mostly just used for AOA, and even then it’s only one piece of a larger whole that they consider.

(That said, I wish AOA wasn’t a thing at all. Data show the honor is very problematic from an unconscious bias standpoint, and I don’t see how it helps move the field forward.)

 

[Jennawitz]

I think that takes it a little far. Don’t get me wrong: I really don’t want any kind of comparison to my classmates if I can help it— I do not understand how that’s productive. However, I think the ranking is mostly just used for AOA, and even then it’s only one piece of a larger whole that they consider.

(That said, I wish AOA wasn’t a thing at all. Data show the honor is very problematic from an unconscious bias standpoint, and I don’t see how it helps move the field forward.)

Does AOA matter at all if you're not interested in derm/ortho/similar specialties? I'm mostly interested in neuro/psych/peds at this point, so will internal ranking affect me at all??

 

[meronebib]

Does AOA matter at all if you're not interested in derm/ortho/similar specialties? I'm mostly interested in neuro/psych/peds at this point, so will internal ranking affect me at all??

From a school like Penn, AOA may not even matter for derm/ortho/etc.

 

[efle]

I think that takes it a little far. Don’t get me wrong: I really don’t want any kind of comparison to my classmates if I can help it— I do not understand how that’s productive. However, I think the ranking is mostly just used for AOA, and even then it’s only one piece of a larger whole that they consider.

(That said, I wish AOA wasn’t a thing at all. Data show the honor is very problematic from an unconscious bias standpoint, and I don’t see how it helps move the field forward.)

Does the Penn MSPE report anything comparative, like outstanding/excellent/good as code for top quartile/second quartile/bottom half? I'd worry more about that than AOA personally, I know there's a good number of "Pass/Fail" schools that still report your quartile in the Dean's Letter

 

[Rachapkis]

I would choose Penn. You know you fit at Penn. Why risk not fitting in at Hopkins? Medical school will bring enough newness on its own. What’s more, you will get another chance to experience another institution during residency (if you so choose). Lastly, Baltimore is meh at best and Philly is a great city.

 

[Jennawitz]

Chose Penn-- thanks everyone for all of your insight!