Penn vs. Columbia

[MZN]

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is anyone else deciding between these two schools? I am leaning towards Columbia (almost entirely because it is in NYC and Penn is not), but unfortunately their second looks weekends are at the same time.

Can anyone tell me about Columbia's corriculum (beyond what I can read on their website)? How long are students in class each day? What do you guys think about these two schoos? Is there a field that Penn is best known for, or do they have any one department that is stronger than their others?

Thank you for helping me with my decision.

 

[filmdoc26]

Hey MZN...
I'm currently waitlisted at Columbia but just got accepted to Penn. I had been "dancing" for Columbia for several weeks now (i.e.- sending lots of letters of intent), but this is because I didn't think I would get into Penn. However, when Penn accepted me, there was no way I would turn it down.
I can understand the attractiveness of NYC. But Philly really isn't a bad town at all. In fact, the immediate area around Columbia is kinda glum, and it takes about a 15-20 minute subway ride to the "intersesting" parts of NYC. I don't mean to say that NYC sucks. By no means! Just keep in mind that Columbia isn't in the BEST part of town and also that Penn isn't in the worst part of town either. Both towns are, in fact, great.
Regarding student success, both schools are comparable in terms of how they do on the boards and how they match in residencies. Rumor is (and I admit that I can't confirm this) that Penn students have an easier time stuyding for the boards (step I) because of the earlier exposure to clinical rotations.
The curriculums are very very different. Columbia adheres to a more "traditional" curriculum, whereas Penn is a bit more "progressive". Columbia spends much of their time in lectures, but Penn spends more time in small groups and offers more early clinical exposure than Columbia does. Columbia has more time in class (often 8AM or 9AM to 5pm) whereas Penn offers its students many afternoons off (during the 1st semester you get three afterrnoons off per week) to pursue other things. Furthermore, Penn is a little bit more unique in that they have their students start clinical rotations during their second year (a definite plus!). You really have to ask yourself what you like better. I think taht Columbia students definitely have to work harder, which is kind of a good thing in my estimation.
In my experience, Columbia students were somewhat happier than the Penn students, but I figured that this is probably because Columbia accepts so many of its students off the waitlist that really really really want to get into Columbia and have truly made that known to Dean Frantz. Penn students were happy too, and I noticed that they were more diverse in terms of ethinicity, educational background, and the like (all generalizations of course).
Penn is known for a very strong internal medicine program, which can lead to many other subspecialties (e.g.- cardiology). Columbia is very strong in its reputation for neurology and neurosurgery. Either way, both schools are very reputable for their clinical training and other specialities if you're lucky to get residencies there in the future.
Lastly, there seemed to be a stark difference in quality of facilities. To be sure, this is where the wealth of a school makes it stand out from other schools. Penn's facilities are almost unmatched. Their new gym, research facilities, and hospitals are simply phenomenal. Plus, housing is fairly cheap in Philly - even in the best parts of town. Columbia's facilities, unfortunately, didn't seem as impressive. I admit that I didn't get to see all the research faclities and all the parts of the hospital, but of the parts of the hospital and teaching buildings (e.g. - lecture hall) I did see, they could not compare to Penn. I also felt that Penn took the extra step to take care of its med students. Though Penn's not known for taking good care of its undergrads, they have a pretty good reputation for taking care of its grad students. For example, before every exam they serve you breakfast, and after the exam you get a little snack. Not a big deal, but a nice touch nonetheless.
I know I'm a bit biased, and I'm sure this might piss some SDNers off, but that's my input. Hope this helps! You should feel lucky to have such a decision on your hands. Good luck, and maybe I'll see you at Penn's second look weekend.

 

[IntlMD07]

Congratulations to you both! Penn and Columbia are fantastic schools and I wish I could be in your position to decide between both 🙂 After graduating college in 02 I have been working at Penn and have to say that Philly is an awesome city. If you know where to go, Philly has everything that NY or DC have to offer with a more affordable rent. Restaurants, shopping, theatre... not that you would have THAT much free time, but it is good to be in a place that at least offers it. Besides, you are only approx. 1h 30 min from NY on the Amtrak train in case you feel like going to the city for a weekend and do not have to worry about safety concerns. The curriculum at Penn has more flexibility, as I understand they have only 1.5 years of basic science as opposed to 2 and do start clinics a semester earlier. On the other hand, as Duke also does, they encourage that you do research on this semester that you "gained" from not being in lectures. I know people at both schools and the only criticism that I have heard of Penn is that the PBLs are often led by instructors with PhDs only that do not do a very good job at correlating the knowledge to medicine. I think you have to go with what makes you happy... If you have family in NY or have always wanted to be a new yorker then pick columbia, if not, you will save money and have just as good of an education at penn.

 

[MZN]

thank you for your response. It has helped me weigh the two out. I am going to sit down and make a list of what I like best about both of the schools (including some of the things that you just told me), and I will see how they compare.

oh, does anyone know if passing step 1 of the boards is required to be promoted to 4th year at Penn? I know it is required to be promoted to 3rd year at Columbia.

Thank you again for your response.

 

[IntlMD07]

There is NO WAY that you should worry about the boards if you had enough MCATs to get you into Columbia AND Penn, but I do think that in all of these schools you must pass the boards in order to graduate. The other thing I forgot to mention is that the Penn exams are scheduled in a way that they are not timed, you can take all of the time you need to take them and because of the honor code, people can walk in and out of the room, eat some snacks, come back and then continue taking them. Let us know when you decide! Good luck to you!

 

[filmdoc26]

The webpage said that Penn does not require Step I or Step II for graduation, but they "highly recommend" it.
Hope this helps.

 

[bez2]

I will preface my post by saying that I am going to Columbia next year so I may be biased but I will try to give my most honest opinion.

First: NYC is still NYC. Although Philly is still a great city NYC has more to offer than almost any other city. Being in NYC was one of my deciding factors and I believe that even though Columbia is not in the greatest part of the city, the mass transit system makes every area very accessible. Thus you will be able to experience the best of NYC.

Second: I personally got a great feeling when I went to Columbia and I gave that a great weight in making my decision. I thought the kids appeared to have a lot of fun and were very intelligent and diverse in their interests and ethnicities. I think a lot of this depends on what type of kid you are, but everyone can figure that out for themselves.

Third: To dispel some of the myths; I don't think that the differences in curriculum are as extreme as others have made them out to be. Yes, Columbia has a more traditional curriculum, but they still have many progressive aspects including first year selectives (i.e. spend time in a physicians office), an integrated first year course in biochem, physiology, cell bio, etc. Furthermore, the first year at Columbia is Pass/Fail, and the remaining years are only Honors/Pass/Fail. Finally, you still have afternoons off at Columbia just as you do at Penn. I would say that some of the facilities at Columbia aren't the best, but to me that isn't the most important factor in deciding where to be for the next four years.

To conlcude after a long winded answer, I think both schools are great and equal in reputation. You would become a great doctor graduating from either school and it comes down to where you want to live and where you felt most comfortable. Columbia does have a really cool name; Physicians and Surgeons. Maybe that will make your decision easier.

 

[DarkChild]

there's a great columbia vs. cornell thread in the allopathic forum where a bunch of columbia kids spoke up about their school. i just came from the columbia (MD/PhD) revisit here are some of the things i saw/learnt:
1) first years are in class MWF from 9-12 and T/TH they've got class from 9-12 and then from i think about 2-4/5 they've got anatomy lab. i believe during the afternoons MW the MD students have an opportunity to shadow physicians in clinics...
2) first years have exams in blocks with a reasonably long time (>4 weeks?) between exam blocks. exams are scheduled MWF - so you get the in between days to study. first year is P/F
3) classes first year are pretty much all lectures which depending on the topic, a bunch of people cut and attendance isnt taken or anything. there is a lecture transcription service for the classes which dont provide detailed lecture notes whereby at one point in the year, each student transcribes the lecture and then its shared with everyone else.
4) during the second year, the schedule is apparently more flexible. there are a couple small group type classes in which students discuss cases, which some would argue is somewhat analagous to PBL. second year is H/P/F
5) we got a chance to see bard hall - its honestly not that bad. its not the greatest place in the world, but i was really impressed with the athletic center in the basement. its got a pool, free weights, some treadmills, machines, squash courts and a basketball court. not bad at all, and for me an equitable trade off for living in bard.
6) we also saw the towers - and those apartments are pretty nice.
7) food choices around the healthsciences campus looks a little slim. apparently a new place opened up in bard (in addition to the recovery room cafe) which serves stuff (sushi, snacks, fruit shakes...?) from 9PM-3AM. and i think thats pretty helpful
8) if you can be a$$ed to make it down to the morningside campus (there's a free shuttle that runs every half hour at least, plus the subway that takes about 10 mins) you'll definately be rewarded. butler library is just a really pretty library and a cool place to hang out and pretend to study. as a jaded columbia undergrad, i realize it was more a social scene to people watch than anything else. also I really thought dodge fitness center was pretty amazing. its got a huge pool, a basketball court, the larger varsity b-ball courts which you can use as well, a ton of free weights, a ton of machines, and a running track. plus - there are some really hot women there
9) while i only met a bunch of the mudphud kids, they were all pretty chill people and for the most part very outgoing and enthusiastic about columbia (obviously 😉 ) as well NYC in general. so while the neighborhood isnt the greatest, i think its nice because its a little quieter than the traditional hustle and bustle of NYC, there are a number of nearby parks and stuff and its really easy to access the rest of NYC through the 1/9 and A trains.
I'm probably leaving out a bunch of things but all in all i was pretty impressed with Columbia.

 

[dmbpremed]

So, is Columbia H/P/F? For some reason, I thought that it was A/B/C/D/F. Maybe I was just mistaken. I am probably going to be going to Columbia (I was accepted COlumbia and got 2ndTier at UPenn). I definetely would like H/P/F much more - can someone please confirm this for me? I couldn't find anything about grading in their literature or website.

 

[Bonds756]

Originally posted by IntlMD07
There is NO WAY that you should worry about the boards if you had enough MCATs to get you into Columbia AND Penn, but I do think that in all of these schools you must pass the boards in order to graduate. The other thing I forgot to mention is that the Penn exams are scheduled in a way that they are not timed, you can take all of the time you need to take them and because of the honor code, people can walk in and out of the room, eat some snacks, come back and then continue taking them. Let us know when you decide! Good luck to you!

Yes, the exams are untimed in that we are scheduled to take an exam during a certain time period but anyone needing more time is allowed to stay as long as they need. And sure you can get up and get more bagels and stuff during the test, but it isn't the honors code in the sense of no proctor. There are always people in the room, which is beneficial since their purpose is to answer any questions we have about the test.

 

[Bonds756]

Wow filmdoc26, you really did your homework. Everything is pretty much right on.
And I think the curriculum is as different as some posters made it out to be.
Penn: 1 1/2 year sciences, 50-50 split between lecture and small groups (actually more small groups than 50%), integrated curriculum by organ system
Columbia: 2 years, mostly lecture, some integration of curriculum but still within a more traditional format
Both are going to give some clinical exposure in the first year. Both are great schools and it comes down to what it best for you. There are a lot of advantages to each teaching style (as well as every other factor you most consider). Ultimately, despite the appeal of NYC, I chose to be at Penn.

 

[bez2]

Just wanted to confirm that Columbia is P/F in the first year and then H/P/F in the rest of the years.

 

[CycloneDub]

Columbia is P/F in the first year and H/P/F in the second year.
(As for someone who took first year before the change, I can tell you the first years appreciate the lower stress and get a chance to enjoy NYC too).

In response to the initial question: both schools are great -- and with serve you well. Columbia has New York and gives you the opportunity to work with great community programs there and if you are motivated, you can get involved with any of the international programs that have headquarters in NYC.
Both do well in the match -- it really depends on your focus and long-term goals. Just remember, you'll have a life outside of medical school, too.

In the end, I think the "gut reaction" matters a lot more than any drawn-out meta-analysis. You'll do better at a place that you're happy with and that gut feeling tells you the most of where you'll be happy.

I am happy that I followed my gut and chose Columbia over Penn and would do it again.

CycloneDub