Penn vs Weill Cornell

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Blossom196

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So I'm into both, and I literally change my mind every two minutes. I know there are some people making the same choice; can someone help me (us) please?

Cornell:
(+)
- Housing is cheaper (I think) and much closer to campus
- Class gets out by 1pm most days, which makes things flexible (study and workout when you want). PBL sounds cool and not boring
- NYC has its pros and cons, but i would love to live there at some point in my life, and i think my 20s is the time
- I think the NY Pres. hospital is better than Penns?
- Small class size may make you more special
(-)
- NYC is expensive, may be overwhelming. I'm scared of just blending in. Also a little worried that the Weill campus is a little isolated, while Penn is surrounded by other schools and young people.
- Not as large of a variety of degrees
- Weekly quiz (could be a pro, as it keeps you on top of things. But quizzes are Mondays, which may make weekend social life hard. any thoughts?)
- F/P/Honors

Penn
(+)
- College atmosphere, with other graduate schools, and more options for electives
- Global Health certificate, women's health thing, many things
- Starting clinics early - (is this a pro?? Clerkships are hard and stressful, is it worth starting it early?)
- Seen as a slightly better school
- Cheaper city... more drinking money
- I think Penn had one of the best interview days- well planned, involved administration
- F/P first year
(-)
- More expensive housing, father from campus.
- lots of class time, many lectures (that I may or may not fall asleep in)
- Philly... I see many students stay in Philadelphia for residendy, which I would not want to do
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I might be more biased since I interviewed at Penn and loved it there. Overall, I think that there are pros and cons. Why don't you go to second look and see which will fit more with your personality/goals in medicine? for me NYC and philly are similar. If you are more interested in Global health etc, I think Penn is the place to be. You've got good choices and can't go wrong in your decision.

On a side note, Penn's first 1.5 years are H/P/F...a few classes are P/F. So please look carefully. The curriculum is intensive but I know you are well prepared for rotations, so don't worry; you'll do great.
 
Penn unless you really care about living in New York. Heavy PBL sucks.
 
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Housing may be cheaper at Cornell, but I think you get more for what you pay for in Philly. For instance, I remember from my interview that Cornell had first-year dorms, whereas in Philly, you could have one room in a two-bedroom apartment. I'm trying to choose between Penn and Columbia, and housing *definitely* goes in Penn's pro column for me.

Are you going to either second look weekend? That may be a better time to decide as opposed to trying to cobble together memories from the middle of a hectic interview season.
 
I'm facing the same decision, so I know what you're going through! (Actually, I have Columbia thrown into the mix, which is making it even harder...)

For me, there are two major concerns I have about Cornell: the lack of a full university in the same city, and a somewhat indescribable feeling I had during my interview there... something to do with how much money they seem to have, their location on the upper East side, and a general feeling that there wouldn't be a lot of real support for work with underserved populations and health policy and things like that. Not sure, it's hard to explain. And, of course, all that money does seem to be a plus side for things like international travel...

I loved Penn, and am planning to go to the revisit weekend. The only problem there is that it's not in NYC. (I got engaged a few months ago, so I'm not the only one who's going to be affected by this decision, and NYC solves so many problems...)

I wish I could pick and choose different elements from all the schools I'm in at!
 
Who cares if your father is from Penn's campus? Don't let that fact negatively impact your decision. Go wherever you get the best feel at.
 
fisko82 said:
Who cares if your father is from Penn's campus? Don't let that fact negatively impact your decision. Go wherever you get the best feel at.
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I'm pretty sure the OP meant that housing at Penn is "faRther" from campus.
 
I am having this exact same decision dilemma. I feel sooo blessed to be able to choose from these two amazing schools. The problem for me is I know that I can't go wrong with my decision; I'm sure I would be perfectly happy at either school.

Cornell:
- LOVE the idea of pbl, but I need to make sure this method of learning is right for me. I've never done anything like it, but I know that I learn best in groups and would hate to be sitting in lecture all day long. I signed up for the mock pbl during revisit, so I guess I can check it out then. I don't want to start in the fall and realize that I hate pbl.
-NYC, I've never lived there before and 4 years of med school seems like a great time to get to know the city.
-I like the smaller class size at Cornell, the students seem really happy to be there.

Penn:
- The Curriculum 2000 seems amazing, kind of like a middleground between small group emphasis/traditional. I also like how you start going into the clinics in your second year, which gives more flexiblity for electives/research for 4th year.
-Philadephia, I live here now and like the city a lot. All 4 of my siblings go to school here (including a twin sister at another Philly medical school), so I would absolutely love to be near them for the next few years.
-Global heath program: HUGE at Penn!, I know that I want to do something in international health and Penn seems like the place to do it at.


Again, both schools seem really amazing. I guess it will come down to the financial aid packages and the "feel" I get at the revisit weekends. I remember that during my interview day, a Cornell MS1 talked to us about why she specially chose Cornell over Penn, so maybe I'll try and track her down during the revisit. At least we have a little while to make a decision...
 
I don't think you are at all limited to staying in Philly for residency if thats not what you want. People obviously match all over. What do you mean by housing is further from campus? Does cornell provide cots in their medical school? You can live as close to campus as you want.
 
cornell's curriculum is too hands off- relies too much on PBL and small group; lectures are really basic, nothing spectacular (I actually got a chance to attend a couple during my interview stay) ...the only plus for cornell is the location. there's really no reason to chose cornell over penn, unless you realllly love NYC more than Philly.
 
NYC is way cool. There are lots of young people. As for which school you should go to I have no idea but I am sure you can handle NYC nicely.
 
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Drogba said:
Does cornell provide cots in their medical school? You can live as close to campus as you want.
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hahaha if they provided cots in the med school i'd be pretty scared. i mean that at cornell, housing is right NEXT to the teaching buildings (get up in the morning and get to class within a couple of minutes). At penn, apartments can be 10-25 minutes away.

I'm definitely going to revisit weekend. I wish Cornell's were sooner though, especially since it falls in the middle of my finals week. I feel like I have to go though to get a real sense for the students.

i WISH i could see into the future, and see myself at penn and cornell 4 years from now. that would make the choice a lot easier
 
Students at Cornell and Penn do well in the boards and match extremely well. Go with the one where you'll enjoy the most.
 
Here, let me use a simple inequality to help make my case: Penn > Cornell. :laugh:

Seriously though, I've never heard anything negative about Penn and I've rarely encountered the same excitement from people considering Cornell. That's just my impression as someone who has not even applied yet. 🙂
 
cornell shares presbyterian with columbia. no such competition at UPenn hospitals.

Drogba said:
Here, let me use a simple inequality to help make my case: Penn > Cornell. :laugh:

Seriously though, I've never heard anything negative about Penn and I've rarely encountered the same excitement from people considering Cornell. That's just my impression as someone who has not even applied yet. 🙂
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Cornell's New York Hospital and Columbia's Presbyterian Hospital merged the business end of things several years ago to save on purchasing and things like that. As far as I understand, they are still 2 entirely separate medical center campuses, and there are no Cornell students at Columbia-Presbyterian and no Columbia students at NYH. Though, honestly - would it be bad if there were? I wouldn't mind sharing NYP if I got to experience the full breadth of it.

That said, as a soon-to-be Baylor alum, I am a big fan of the year-and-a-half basic sciences curriculum that Penn also has. It allows you to take a lot more electives, you can schedule your Step 1 studying and test time as you wish and all that will give you the tools you need to look impressive. So many of the residents at Baylor who come from other schools gripe about how our curriculum and the ability to take Step 1 after as much preparation as we want and when we want (and with some clinical knowledge on our belt) is an "unfair advantage" - but if it's an advantage you have an option of having, I say take it!
 
scorponok31 said:
This thread shouldn't even exist. Penn wins hands down. Curriculum, match list, student caliber, student satisfaction. Go to Penn man....you'll regret it down the road if you don't.
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You just joined SDN... why are you spending all your time bashing Cornell on every Cornell-related thread? Sounds fishy to me.
 
I admit, i did just join sdn, but not to bash. It just so happens that my posts were mostly on cornell so far. However, my comments do have truth to them. Penn is much stronger in nearly all aspects. Cornell's curriculum is way too questionable.
 
scorponok31 said:
I admit, i did just join sdn, but not to bash. It just so happens that my posts were mostly on cornell so far. However, my comments do have truth to them. Penn is much stronger in nearly all aspects. Cornell's curriculum is way too questionable.
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Troll...and not a very good one...
 
rosiemarie said:
For me, there are two major concerns I have about Cornell: the lack of a full university in the same city, and a somewhat indescribable feeling I had during my interview there... something to do with how much money they seem to have, their location on the upper East side, and a general feeling that there wouldn't be a lot of real support for work with underserved populations and health policy and things like that. Not sure, it's hard to explain. And, of course, all that money does seem to be a plus side for things like international travel...
Click to expand...

I'm in the same position (Cornell v. UPENN) and I have the same concerns. I was thinking of switching into MD/PhD for med. anthro. after MS1/2 or getting an MPH along the way, but that's pretty much impossible at Cornell. Whereas at Penn it's very do-able. That's a big thing for me. But the underserved support is solved pretty easily. It's NYC. You go to Lincoln Hospital in the Bronx, spend time at the student-run clinic, or work with doctors out in "the field". Since Cornell does have so much money it seems like you have a lot of power to do and start whatever program you want. I work in East Harlem now and I'm thinking of doing something with Cornell here. Cornell does have the hospital in Tanzania and the clinic in Haiti, too, which could add to some much needed "underservedness."

SnoPearl said:
You just joined SDN... why are you spending all your time bashing Cornell on every Cornell-related thread? Sounds fishy to me.
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Totally agree!
 
scorponok31 said:
Penn is much stronger in nearly all aspects. Cornell's curriculum is way too questionable.
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Enlighten us -stronger how? US News & World Report stronger? How is Cornell's curriculum "questionable" ? Have you studied there? Penn's 1.5 accelerated program seems equally "questionable" to the un-Penn'd eye.
 
Penn is slowly developing a very strong dept in med anthro from what I hear.
 
I am pretty sure most lectures are video taped and put online so if you are sick or have to miss it, you can always tune in later. That puts me at ease since you can't always get to class in emergencies! Better than pod casting! 😍
 
Discussions like these are absurd. There is no comprehensive way of comparing these two schools so as to definitively say that one is better than the other. In fact, it seems a bit foolish/ignorant to even believe that its possible. I suspect that the people on this thread that have been wrecklessly saying that one is better than the other minus logic or reason, have absolutely no chance of getting in to either school. Since this is probably the case, let us that have gotten into either/both of the schools have a logical discussion. Which may go something along the lines of hmm, well Penn has the foremost children's hospital in the country, maybe this would be an argument in favor of those interested in peds to opt for penn. Alternatively, Cornell students benefit from having one of the top cancer centers in the world located directly across the street-- and so on and so forth...

Can we please tone down the ignorant rhetoric and have a logical discussion??
 
Just a couple of clarifications:

1) Cornell's PBL is not exhaustive. PBL is 3 times a week, for either 60 minutes or 90 minutes. This amounts to less than 4 hours a week. Nothing is taught in PBL that isn't covered in lecture. While I like PBL (when you get to 3rd year and you have to present cases, make powerpoints for attendings--just like pbl--you will begin to understand the value), it is generally not "fundamental" to our education, despite claims of the admissions people 🙂

2) NY Hospital is completely separate from Presbyterian. There is no competition (for better or worse).

3) Penn is "ranked" higher for research, but many people forget that Cornell's resources include MSKCC, Rockefeller, and HSS. Doctors at these hospitals not only are faculty at cornell, but teach the medical students, are attendings at NY hospital, etc. As cornell medical students (the only medical school for mskcc/rockefeller/hss, we have full access to these facilities, and many of us do research there--it is just as easy and accessible as Cornell. When you take in to consideration MSKCC, Rockefeller, HSS, *and* Cornell Medical School, I think you can make a pretty strong case that the "research" opportunities here are stronger than at Penn. Unfortunately due to arbitrary ranking systems like usnews, these institutions are not included.

4) I cant speak for Penn's international health, but it would be difficult to imagine it is any better than Cornell's--we can go abroad and get funding for it our first summer, as well as for electives/rotations. We have cornell sites in many countries, including haiti, tanzania, brazil, ghana.... etc (the list goes on). I think someone else mentioned this. It means you can work directly with a faculty member in a different country--you arent just being "sent" randomly. (Though you can do that also, and receive funding, if you want).

Obviously either choice will be great and I cant speak too much for Penn, but I think those points needed clarification. I love it at Cornell--medically, it is difficult to imagine a more exciting 5 blocks.

-L
 
Same tough decision for me, but I won't be able to get to second look weekends because I am out of the country...
What about opportunities to go to South America for international health? Or rather, do you think Penn or Cornell would be more likely to fund an idea to go somewhere that the school does not have a developed program?

(On a side note, I like the 1.5 year curriculum at Penn, but it seems that both schools do well on the boards)

Oh, and one more question, which I guess I'll have answered soon enough...but which school tends to give more generous loan packages? I wouldn't be considered disadvantaged, so I suppose I could be looking at $200,000 debt after attending either?
 
mdblogger said:
What about opportunities to go to South America for international health? Or rather, do you think Penn or Cornell would be more likely to fund an idea to go somewhere that the school does not have a developed program?
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I can't speak firsthand for Penn, but when I interviewed there they really seemed to push the international stuff, and basically just said "we'll make it happen, wherever you want to go." However, I can speak for Cornell when I say that people go anywhere they want, and the school makes it happen. They will help you get to anywhere you speak the language, provided you will be able to do something somewhat meaningful. Either school is a great choice for international options.

mdblogger said:
Oh, and one more question, which I guess I'll have answered soon enough...but which school tends to give more generous loan packages? I wouldn't be considered disadvantaged, so I suppose I could be looking at $200,000 debt after attending either?
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As for fin aid, Cornell has been very good to me with their loan packages and grants. If by "not disadvantaged" you mean that your parents make a lot of money, the unfortunate fact is that you may end up with a lot of loans anywhere you go.

ziggy793 said:
I am pretty sure most Penn lectures are video taped and put online so if you are sick or have to miss it, you can always tune in later. That puts me at ease since you can't always get to class in emergencies! Better than pod casting! 😍
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Cornell lectures are all taped and posted online. They can be watched in the education center.

redsoxdoc said:
4 > 18 ...
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If there are anymore legitimate questions comparing the programs, I'm sure Penn and Cornell students would be happy to answer. However, if you'd prefer to pull the rank card and start a flame war, nobody's stopping you...
 
bbabul01 said:
If there are anymore legitimate questions comparing the programs, I'm sure Penn and Cornell students would be happy to answer.
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Can you comment on the oft repeated "complaint" about the Cornell curriculum with regard to one course (no physiology, I think?) and any other issues related to preparation for the Step exams? Big deal? Small deal?

Also seems like I have read Cornell students carping about the PBL wasting time...anything you can add to this?

Thanks...
 
flip26 said:
Can you comment on the oft repeated "complaint" about the Cornell curriculum with regard to one course (no physiology, I think?) and any other issues related to preparation for the Step exams? Big deal? Small deal?

Also seems like I have read Cornell students carping about the PBL wasting time...anything you can add to this?

Thanks...
Click to expand...

I believe the complaint is usually on pharmacology. We have a great physiology course happening for first years right now. It's integrated with embryo and anatomy so it works very well. But yes, pharm is lacking from the curriculum. My take on it though, is that you get bits and pieces throughout the years, then fill in the gaps as need be for the boards. Personally, pharm does not seem like a particular riveting subject, rather something that is essential for any doctor. So it won't be much fun to learn, whether you're teaching yourself, or listening to lectures on it. I think if they had to skip one course, I agree on pharm, as I can teach myself a list of medications on my own. But if you're worried about not learning it, it's a strike against Cornell. I think on the grand scale, people get prepared for the boards, and we all do very well, so it can't be too big of a deal.

As for PBL, I don't think it's a waste of time at all. It is not the most succinct way to learn any topic that's for sure, but we don't have PBL to teach you cardiovascular physiology (that's what lectures are for). We have PBL so we can learn how to integrate the topics, how they apply to real cases, and how to research and discuss these topics among your peers. Some people feel the touchy-feely integrated stuff is a waste of their time. I feel like it better prepares me for actual situations in the hospital, especially in regards to knowing where to look up the information (i.e. AccessMedicine, MDConsult, UptoDate, etc) and knowing how to appropriately present what I find to my peers and attendings. I've heard from a lot of 3rd/4th years that they feel better prepared in the aspects while on rotations than students from other schools.

Oh, and if you don't like, as mentioned, it's 4 hours of your week. No big deal.
 
bbabul01 said:
I believe the complaint is usually on pharmacology. We have a great physiology course happening for first years right now. It's integrated with embryo and anatomy so it works very well. But yes, pharm is lacking from the curriculum. My take on it though, is that you get bits and pieces throughout the years, then fill in the gaps as need be for the boards. Personally, pharm does not seem like a particular riveting subject, rather something that is essential for any doctor. So it won't be much fun to learn, whether you're teaching yourself, or listening to lectures on it. I think if they had to skip one course, I agree on pharm, as I can teach myself a list of medications on my own. But if you're worried about not learning it, it's a strike against Cornell. I think on the grand scale, people get prepared for the boards, and we all do very well, so it can't be too big of a deal.

As for PBL, I don't think it's a waste of time at all. It is not the most succinct way to learn any topic that's for sure, but we don't have PBL to teach you cardiovascular physiology (that's what lectures are for). We have PBL so we can learn how to integrate the topics, how they apply to real cases, and how to research and discuss these topics among your peers. Some people feel the touchy-feely integrated stuff is a waste of their time. I feel like it better prepares me for actual situations in the hospital, especially in regards to knowing where to look up the information (i.e. AccessMedicine, MDConsult, UptoDate, etc) and knowing how to appropriately present what I find to my peers and attendings. I've heard from a lot of 3rd/4th years that they feel better prepared in the aspects while on rotations than students from other schools.

Oh, and if you don't like, as mentioned, it's 4 hours of your week. No big deal.
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Thanks so much for answering all these questions for us bbabul01!

Can you comment on if there is a competitive atmosphere at Cornell? I've spoken to a some people at Penn, and they said you can definitely 'feel' the competition there, especially when the curriculum changes to honors/pass/fail. I know that Cornell starts off as honors/pass/fail, but do you feel like the students help each other out; and what is the degree if competition/stress? The only school I interviewed at where it seemed like the staff, faculty, and students genuinely aim to minimize peer competition (and it's working) was at Mt. Sinai. I came from an undergrad where you could definitely 'feel' the competition and it was really stressful, and I really know that I don't want to go through that atmosphere again in medical school.

Thanks so much 🙂
 
what are the avg. board scores for each school?? And why are MSKCC and HSS not in the rankings? Seems like that would make a huge differences - both are major draws for people interested in Onc or Ortho...
 
wutwinb said:
Can you comment on if there is a competitive atmosphere at Cornell? I've spoken to a some people at Penn, and they said you can definitely 'feel' the competition there, especially when the curriculum changes to honors/pass/fail. I know that Cornell starts off as honors/pass/fail, but do you feel like the students help each other out; and what is the degree if competition/stress? The only school I interviewed at where it seemed like the staff, faculty, and students genuinely aim to minimize peer competition (and it's working) was at Mt. Sinai. I came from an undergrad where you could definitely 'feel' the competition and it was really stressful, and I really know that I don't want to go through that atmosphere again in medical school.

Thanks so much 🙂
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I can only speak for myself, but I feel competition here is much lower than my undergrad. However, I'm on SDN answering questions while everyone else is obviously studying for our anatomy exam on Friday, so I'm not sure what that says.

Our curriculum is H/P/F, but that's based on quiz scores as well as subjective comments/grades from our triple jump, PBL and small group sessions. So even if you're super competitive and always get a 100, you can still get a bad grade in PBL because you're not a team player, and then you end up just passing. I think that helps to alleviate the stress of shooting for honors, and for most people, they realize if it happens it happens, if not, it's not the end of the world.

We all study in groups, and email out cheat sheets, and tell each other about the good study websites. I feel like we're all on the same team, unless I'm missing something.
 
what is the WCMC step 1 avg. score?

not that it matters because i have seen their match list and it is sick...
 
physiologyguy said:
what are the avg. board scores for each school?? And why are MSKCC and HSS not in the rankings? Seems like that would make a huge differences - both are major draws for people interested in Onc or Ortho...
Click to expand...


Not sure about avg board scores--I've never seen these numbers for the majority of schools i looked at. I dont think it is released. I would imagine it is quite high for both schools, judging on the match list.

My best guess is that it is because MSKCC is a separate institution. But there is so much interplay between the two this sort of falls apart. We do rotations at mskcc, have lectures from attendings, etc., etc...

L
 
I see a lot of Penn students end up staying at Penn for residency, and Cornell students stay at NYP-Cornell as well.

Which hospital is more prestigious for internal medicine? I know that NYP-Cornell is higher in the hospital rankings. How come very few Penn students go to NYP for residency?
 
physiologyguy said:
what are the avg. board scores for each school?? And why are MSKCC and HSS not in the rankings? Seems like that would make a huge differences - both are major draws for people interested in Onc or Ortho...
Click to expand...

mskcc and hss are affiliates of the medical school, but not the type that are counted as affiliates in the USNews rankings [USNews essentially looks at the med school + the main teaching hospital]. so NIH grants awarded to those hospitals (and Rockefeller University) aren't counted towards WCMC's NIH grants (and therefore aren't counted in the rankings.)

avg board scores aren't released. cornell doesn't teach nor has ever taught for the boards and they're not required here for advancement or graduation. but in general students do well. regardless of curriculum, all students nationwide do the exact same thing -- hole up for a week or two surrounded by review books and cram.

blossom196 said:
I see a lot of Penn students end up staying at Penn for residency, and Cornell students stay at NYP-Cornell as well.

Which hospital is more prestigious for internal medicine? I know that NYP-Cornell is higher in the hospital rankings. How come very few Penn students go to NYP for residency?
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Academic medical centers are notorious for inbreeding. Students end up liking the cities or hospitals where they train. Institutions know who they're getting. it's a win win most of the time. Don't know which hospital is more prestigious for any given specialty. hard to believe but most patients could care less where someone went to med school or residency. Our new chair of medicine just came from Penn where he was chair of medicine there too.

they are both great schools and hospitals with lots of opportunities for their students. at the end of the day you just have to go where you think you fit in better.
 
They said at Columbia that they have a list of interested M1s and M2s that are picked one by one to observe organ harvests (they get paged out of no where and get to take the helicopter w/ the flight doctors). I thought that sounded really cool, and I know it's kind of random, but do either Penn and Cornell have a similar opportunity?
 
mdblogger said:
They said at Columbia that they have a list of interested M1s and M2s that are picked one by one to observe organ harvests (they get paged out of no where and get to take the helicopter w/ the flight doctors). I thought that sounded really cool, and I know it's kind of random, but do either Penn and Cornell have a similar opportunity?
Click to expand...

I don't think NYPH Cornell has a helipad. So probably not...
 
bbabul01 said:
I don't think NYPH Cornell has a helipad. So probably not...
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NYPH Columbia doesn't have a helipad either 🙂

i'm not sure if the opportunity exists at the m1 and m2 level...it did a few years ago, but for students in the clinical years -- my roommate got paged several times for kidney and pancreas transplants.
 
Penn State for the win
 
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