Penn

[hannibalct]

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Just curious what other folks thought of Penn during the interview day. I felt like I didn't get a great read on the program and had the sense from one of the residents that they may violate hours (not trying to spread rumors or gossip, just an intimation that was made to me).

 

[greyman21]

They work you pretty hard at Penn. I went to a grand rounds given by their PD talking about resident fatigue and she seemed to be on the more hours = better training side of the argument. Also I get the feeling looking at their program (having not gotten an interview here) that they are unwilling to dilute the excellent group of people they match to cover hours better until rules get stricter. They are the example on the interview trail of the elite program that didn't prepare for ACGME changes and will now spend a few years tweaking things. That said they probably do meet the requirements if you are efficient and complete your work within the schedule set out for you. /Its just that their schedule involved more admitting days than most that I have looked at, which is a good thing for learning but still makes for some hard work.

 

[PhillyIM2014]

Penn IM intern here. Long time reader. First time poster. These boards have been extremely helpful over the years (especially last year) and hopefully I can help contribute.

I can honestly say that I have been very happy with my decision to come to Penn. I came from a program outside of the area and have had a great experience living in Philadelphia so far. One of the things that stood out to me during my interview day was the quality of the people in the program and how supportive it seemed to be. It has definitely been that way so far during my 7 months here.

The one thing that I want to emphasize is that the Penn program is definitely not malignant. The people in this program have been very supportive and I have never felt like I have been treated unfairly or put on the spot. The intern/resident classes are full of a lot of genuinely nice/smart people and we definitely stick together. Do we work hard? Yes. I think any program in a large city with a significant referral base will be inherently busy. The program, however, really takes resident concerns seriously and has made a number of changes throughout the year to adjust to the new work hour rules. For example, on our inpatient general medicine service you work on a q4 call system where on your long call days you admit until 7pm but during the 3 other days it is very possible to leave by 4-5pm. Our subspecialty services can be busier but the program has done a great job of adding additional residents and adjusting call schedules.

Dr. Bellini is a great program director and has been extremely supportive this year. She meets with the intern and resident classes once a month to talk about concerns and ways things could improve. Based on input from interns and residents this year they will be starting a 6+2 schedule for the new interns next year where you will have two clinic weeks (w/roughly a 9-5 schedule) every month and a half.

I wish all of this year's applicants the best of luck (wherever you choose to attend). One of the biggest pieces of advice that I took from SDN last year (thanks to gutonc and jdh) was to not discount your "gut" and how you feel that you fit with a program. There are a lot of great IM residencies out there with plenty of opportunities and it can be very easy to get caught up in the details when putting together your rank list. Being in an environment that works best for you can make all the difference. For me, that place turned out to be Penn.

I realize that this is just my opinion and I definitely encourage anyone interested in the program to talk to as many people as possible.

If anyone has questions about the Penn program, living in Philadelphia, etc., I would be glad to help!

 

[hannibalct]

Thanks for the information. Sorry for belaboring the point, but have you had occasion to violate work hours at any point this year? Feel free to PM.

 

[PhillyIM2014]

Sorry! I should have addressed this in my original post. The honest answer to your question would be that, early in my intern year, I'm sure there were a couple isolated weeks where I went over 80 hours (although I certainly did not average >80 during any one month period). I think a lot of it had to do with my inefficiency as a new intern coupled with being on one of our busier rotations. That particular rotation has now added additional residents and had their admitting days decreased. Since that time I can't think of any period where I've exceeded 80 hours (and this includes unit time).

The overall culture of the program is definitely to adhere to work hour rules. At our monthly intern/program leadership meetings, the leadership is always asking for feedback on the new system and how we can improve. There are a number of new models in the works for next year to decrease the load on residents (and it honestly has not been bad w/the current system) - including decreasing caps, adding additional NP's to non-teaching services, etc.

I think it is very reasonable to expect to have a life outside of work here (even during intern year). I have been impressed w/how much residents and co-interns have been willing to help each other out with extra admissions, etc. when things get busy.

Hopefully this helps, feel free to let me know if you have any additional questions!

 

[EastcoastIM]

Hey everybody! This is PhillyIM from last year (lost my original login info). Now that the interview season is approaching, I would like to offer any help that I can to applicants interested in the Penn program. I am now a "seasoned" JAR and remain very happy with my choice to come here. I look forward to meeting many of you on the interview trail this year. Let me know if I can help!

 

[bubblez128]

Hi - quick question. How do people at Penn view residents at the Pennsylvania Hospital residency? And what are the big general differences between the programs?

 

[EastcoastIM]

The Pennsylvania Hospital program is its own residency program (separate program director, group of residents, clinical training sites, etc) and I'm not sure that I have enough experience with it to be able to fully answer all of your questions. Through the HUP program, we rotate through HUP, Penn Presbyterian, and the VA but do not rotate at Pennsy as it is staffed by its own group of residents. Anecdotally, I can say that I rotated with a 3rd year Pennsy resident in our ACE (inpatient geriatrics) unit and she seemed very competent and happy with her program.

As far as its local/national reputation, I am honestly not sure. It seems like a great program and, if you feel that it fits your clinical and academic interests, I would go for it. Your attendings will be UPHS faculty members and you should have access to the health system's research infrastructure. Plus, you'll be working in the nation's first hospital (which I think is pretty cool). According to their website, you also have the opportunity to do elective rotations at HUP and Presby which I can personally attest to being great places to work.

Best of luck with your residency interviews. Hope this helps!

 

[bubblez128]

Thank you so much for the quick reply!!

 

[omentum]

hi, thanks for offering to answer our questions. if you had to choose, what do you think is the one thing residents love about the program, and what do they dislike?

 

[EastcoastIM]

No problem at all. In my opinion, I think that most residents would say that the program leadership and resident collegiality are two big positives of our program. Dr Bellini is truly an excellent PD and genuinely cares about resident happiness/well-being. The aPD's are also very accessible and go out of their way to offer their help. In my short time here, I have seen a number of major changes to the work/rotation structure made based on resident feedback. Our current chiefs are some of the nicest/most positive people that you'll meet. I have been very impressed with their leadership this year.

When I interviewed at Penn, I had the sense that there was a friendly/collegial atmosphere between the residents and I can honestly say that this has been my experience thus far. My resident class sticks together very well and the culture is to help each other out when things get tough. Another resident and I were talking this past weekend about how impressed we were that our PGY-2 class (of 45 residents) gets along and works together as well as it does.

I realize that the above may sound too good to be true and this is just my (n=1) opinion. I fully encourage you to see for yourself when interviewing and decide if it is the type of environment that fits you the best. I think that IM, in general, tends to attract a nice/collegial personality type (and this by no means is unique to Penn). It can be difficult to know what a residency program will truly be like during your short interview day and, fortunately, my experience at Penn has met (or exceeded) what I had expected it to be.

As far as negatives, I think that these would vary between individual residents (and could include workload, computer system, clinic, cafeteria food, etc.) while also being positives for other people. Being in a large, academic, tertiary care hospital system can result in a very busy (but by no means unmanageable) workload at times. I think this is par for the course for similar programs in big cities. The one thing that I'll say is that there is a culture here of openly talking to the leadership about things that you feel could be improved. We have monthly meetings (residents and interns as separate groups) with Dr. Bellini and the program leadership and we feel comfortable being very open/candid when we feel that there is an area needing improvement. As mentioned, I have seen a number of big changes made (in a short period of time).

Hope this helps!

 

[Foodologist]

Hi EastcoastIM, thanks for your posts here as they have been very helpful. During my interview at Penn (loved the residents here btw), I asked about the workload but not sure if I got a completely honest/indirect answer. In your experience, what was the workload like?

During intern year, what time do you usually go home on long-calls? What time go home on non-call days? Do residents here burn out? Have things gotten a bit better since a few years ago? Thanks!!

 

[tallash]

Just curious what other folks thought of Penn during the interview day. I felt like I didn't get a great read on the program and had the sense from one of the residents that they may violate hours (not trying to spread rumors or gossip, just an intimation that was made to me).

I'm a PGY-2 at another program but can say that Penn was a close second to where I am currently. The things I picked up during my interview day and time in Philly were: a] I liked the culture a lot - seemed the residents worked hard but it was a balanced program in terms of rigor and collegiality b] Philly was a decent city as someone who was coming from a major metropolitan area c] PD was good d] competitive interviews for fellowships.

I thought Penn had the best culture of the programs I interviewed at out east.

Like any program, there was a regional bias for fellowship matches at Penn but when your regional bias is the NE you'll be fine.

 

[Foodologist]

I'm a PGY-2 at another program but can say that Penn was a close second to where I am currently.

So you mean second in terms of violating work hours? Hmmm... a friend of mine who graduated a few years ahead of me (not a Penn resident though) told me that there were rumors of Penn being possible malignant, with very long hours, and even a few interns leaving the class due to workload?!?!?? The other concerning thing for me was that the resident turnout during interview dinner was a bit lower than most of the other interviews, not sure if I should look into that at all as a sign ppl are too tired to come? One resident when asked what speciality he was gonna do, was even like "so when I started Penn, I really wanted to do [comp speciality], but now I think I'm leaning towards [noncomp speciality], because you know... [pause] its just easier you know?" not sure what to make of that either...

Now that said, when I interviewed there, I really loved the residents I encountered, liked the faculty, and though Dr. Bellini was an amazing PD who is genuine and supportive of the housestaff, and therefore I really liked Penn alot. Does anyone from Penn know how it is now? Are work hours still broken alot? I would really like that know because I really liked Penn in every other way. Thanks all!

 

[tallash]

So you mean second in terms of violating work hours? Hmmm... a friend of mine who graduated a few years ahead of me (not a Penn resident though) told me that there were rumors of Penn being possible malignant, with very long hours, and even a few interns leaving the class due to workload?!?!?? The other concerning thing for me was that the resident turnout during interview dinner was a bit lower than most of the other interviews, not sure if I should look into that at all as a sign ppl are too tired to come? One resident when asked what speciality he was gonna do, was even like "so when I started Penn, I really wanted to do [comp speciality], but now I think I'm leaning towards [noncomp speciality], because you know... [pause] its just easier you know?" not sure what to make of that either...

Now that said, when I interviewed there, I really loved the residents I encountered, liked the faculty, and though Dr. Bellini was an amazing PD who is genuine and supportive of the housestaff, and therefore I really liked Penn alot. Does anyone from Penn know how it is now? Are work hours still broken alot? I would really like that know because I really liked Penn in every other way. Thanks all!

Jesus, no I didn't mean duty hours. I clicked "reply" and it quoted that part of the previous post. When I said: "I'm a PGY-2 at another program but can say that Penn was a close second to where I am currently" I meant my rank list went something like this:

1. My current program, which I love
2. Penn
the rest

If you like Penn go there, it's a great program. I had good turnout at my dinner and I didn't get the sense duty hours were broken that often. And honestly, so what if they are - Bellini wouldn't let something like that fly without intervening.

 

[EastcoastIM]

Hi EastcoastIM, thanks for your posts here as they have been very helpful. During my interview at Penn (loved the residents here btw), I asked about the workload but not sure if I got a completely honest/indirect answer. In your experience, what was the workload like?

During intern year, what time do you usually go home on long-calls? What time go home on non-call days? Do residents here burn out? Have things gotten a bit better since a few years ago? Thanks!!

Foodologist - Thanks for the question, I would be glad to help if I can (and I appreciate Tallash's comments above). In full disclosure, when I was applying to Penn a few years back, I was legitimately concerned about the posts that I had seen on SDN (in reference to your concerns above). I was impressed with the program leadership/residents and got the feeling that the environment was different than what was portrayed in those posts. I can't speak to how things were in the past but I can say that I have been happy with my time here thus far.

Our typical work schedule depends on the type of rotation. On general medicine services (typically 1 month rotations) you follow a q4 call schedule where interns work 7a-~8-9:30pm depending on the patient load. On non-call days it is very common to leave around 5-7pm. On subspecialty services (2 week rotations), you admit every 2nd day (usually leave around 8pm) and leave early on non-call days. Interns cap at 10 (8 on the liquid oncology services) and your average patient census will run around 5-8 depending on the rotation.

Hopefully this information helps. I can honestly say that the description of Penn in posts from years ago do not accurately depict how things are now. When I hear the term "malignant" I often think of a place where you are overworked, treated unfairly, and individuals are unhappy. The environment here is one that is very supportive (even more so than I had expected) and I have been treated fairly during my time here. Being a large referral center in a large metropolitan city, our hospitals typically have high volumes of patients w/complex medical problems. This can make our admitting days certianly busy at times. We are protected by admission and total census caps which help to keep the workload manageable. My co-residents have been a very positive/supportive group and are definitely one the best parts of the program. It is the culture here to look out for colleagues who may be in need of help and offer our assistance.

For more information about what residency life is like here, I would use your resident interviewer or anyone you might know in the program as a resource. We also typically hold 2nd look sessions in late January where applicants spend time rounding with a team and meet with interns to talk about their experiences.

As mentioned in one of my recent posts, there are many great programs out there and my best advice would be to rank the program that you feel is the best fit for you. Congrats on reaching the end of interview season and best of luck with the match!

 

[tallash]

Foodologist - Thanks for the question, I would be glad to help if I can (and I appreciate Tallash's comments above). [yada yada yada]

Agree with everything EastcoastIM said about Penn, jives with my impression of the place and the experiences of my friends there. If anything it's underrated in my book (as someone who thinks the concept of the "Big 4" is outdated).

 

[235009]

Now here's a burning question I've had for a few months: are the rumors true that there is a categorical intern who is a DO?

 

[Foodologist]

Thanks for the response EastCoastIM, def very helpful. One other question, whats the percentage of single ppl in the residency? I ask because I'm single and was wondering how many fellow single ppl are there to hang out with. I know, kinda silly =P

Also, love the avatar meattornado, hilarious

 

[TheSsm]

Hi Everybody.
I know this is an old discussion. But I was wondering if any of you could give me any information about the program at Pennsylvania hospital. I cannot seem to find any information about it anywhere. It would be really helpful for me. Thanks

 

[gutonc]

Hi Everybody.
I know this is an old discussion. But I was wondering if any of you could give me any information about the program at Pennsylvania hospital. I cannot seem to find any information about it anywhere. It would be really helpful for me. Thanks

Why would you necrobump a thread to ask about a completely different program when there's a perfectly good "program specific questions" thread out there?

 

[BrainBuff]

After interviewing and visiting several programs it seems to me that Penn is a little "malignant" compared to other elite programs. The residents and interns are not really laid back. It is all about work and about "not wasting time." Every one seems way too be busy and not particularly "happy". I have spent enough time in the wards to get a sense of that. The culture is definitely different here.

 

[Zanzobar]

After interviewing and visiting several programs it seems to me that Penn is a little "malignant" compared to other elite programs. The residents and interns are not really laid back. It is all about work and about "not wasting time." Every one seems way too be busy and not particularly "happy". I have spent enough time in the wards to get a sense of that. The culture is definitely different here.

I'm a resident at Penn and personally this has not been my experience at all. When I first started I was wary about whether Penn would be "malignant" but the reality couldn't be further from the truth. I think there's great collegiality among the housestaff, fellows and attendings. There are times when residents and interns get stressed out, but I'm sure there are moments like that for residents at any program, but generally everyone is really happy and friendly. I'm sorry if that didn't come across on your interview day, but I couldn't be happier with my experience here and a lot of that is due to the culture of the program.

 

[jdh71]

Penn15

 

[spiderman51]

Do you have any idea about physician scientist track of Penn in Internal Medicine? How is the culture of this program? How does program director treat the trainees of this program? What skills, abilities are essential to success in this field? Thanks.

 

[scribePT]

Great info. I'm glad I found this thread. Like many before me, I'm also concerned about whether or not the residency program connotes a negative atmosphere. On another note, my impression of IM people on this forum are that of supportive personalities/cooperative types. I like that.