People, stop with the madness

[sirus_virus]

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Just so you know, medical schools are charging all that money because people are willing to take that much in loans. It is time pre-meds start opening their eyes to the realities. If you take ~200k in loans for medschool, you are doomed financially, that is a fact. It is time pre-meds start resisting the fraudulent forces sucking them into these schemes run by our medschools. Start writing to congress and state governments, and let them know the real barrier to affordable healthcare in America is the hidden degree peddlers producing heavily debt laden physicians, who have no choice but to propagate a money first pt last type of healthcare system.

Stop feeding the the madness, stand up against the heist. They preach altruism, but they practice grand theft.

 

[starfishprime]

 

[NotAndrew]

Just so you know, medical schools are charging all that money because people are willing to take that much in loans. It is time pre-meds start opening their eyes to the realities. If you take ~200k in loans for medschool, you are doomed financially, that is a fact. It is time pre-meds start resisting the fraudulent forces sucking them into these schemes run by our medschools. Start writing to congress and state governments, and let them know the real barrier to affordable healthcare in America is the hidden degree peddlers producing heavily debt laden physicians, who have no choice but to propagate a money first pt last type of healthcare system.

Stop feeding the the madness, stand up against the heist. They preach altruism, but they practice grand theft.

I love it, great post!

 

[87138]

 

[starfishprime]

If you take ~200k in loans for medschool, you are doomed financially, that is a fact.

No it isn't.

It is time pre-meds start resisting the fraudulent forces sucking them into these schemes run by our medschools.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to train a medical student? A lot.

 

[zenlike]

All allopathic schools are non-profit.

 

[niranjan162]

pssshhhh, we dont need to worry about debt any more. Someone else will take care of it for us.

 

[NotAndrew]

Attention everyone: This thread is clearly a joke.

 

[sirus_virus]

All allopathic schools are non-profit.

Trust me, some people are benefiting form that money bigtime. The fact remains that they can charge less if they wanted to. They max out whatever you can borow, that should tell you something.

 

[sirus_virus]

Attention everyone: This thread is clearly a joke.

Yes, but you need to figure out who is laughing, and at whom.

 

[Dr Lyss]

pssshhhh, we dont need to worry about debt any more. Someone else will take care of it for us.

😆 I'm laughing at this pic

 

[DrYoda]

All allopathic schools are non-profit.

Just to clear up a commonly help misconception, a non-profit company is allowed to make a profit. Non-profit status is dependent on what you do with the profit, not with profiting or aiming to profit.

 

[NotAndrew]

Yes, but you need to figure out who is laughing, and at whom.

You just blew my mind.

 

[starfishprime]

According to this, it costs the NHS £250,000 ($350,000) to train a physician. That considered, I'm wouldn't feel too bad about paying ~$150,000 for my training.

 

[sirus_virus]

According to this, it costs the NHS £250,000 ($350,000) to train a physician. That considered, I'm wouldn't feel too bad about paying ~$150,000 for my training.

Dude if you have never looked at the breakdown on the cost to train a physician, go and look at it. A janitor's entire salary is reported as part of the cost of training a medstudent. Then the same janitor's entire salary will appear on the cost of training a phd student...... The deans' toilet plumbing costs is rolled into the cost of training a physician. Go read the reports for yourself and you will be amazed. Better yet, pay them the 150K and tell me at the end of your education if you got 150K worth of anything.

 

[DrYoda]

According to this, it costs the NHS £250,000 ($350,000) to train a physician. That considered, I'm wouldn't feel too bad about paying ~$150,000 for my training.

Says a non-citing UK newspaper.

and when you look up an american source it will most likely originate from an american medical school, all of which have something to gain from the number being high.

Quite the debacle you see.

 

[starfishprime]

Better yet, pay them the 150K and tell me at the end of your education if you got 150K worth of anything.

You need to:
a) drop the conspiracy theory crap
b) learn a little something about market value.

Dude if you have never looked at the breakdown on the cost to train a physician, go and look at it. A janitor's entire salary is reported as part of the cost of training a medstudent. Then the same janitor's entire salary will appear on the cost of training a phd student......

Feel free to provide this information in non-hearsay form.

 

[sirus_virus]

You need to:
a) drop the conspiracy theory crap
b) learn a little something about market value.



Feel free to provide this information in non-hearsay form.

I have no incentive to convince anyone hell bent on buying into the scheme. Knock yourself out.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I have no incentive to convince anyone hell bent on buying into the scheme. Knock yourself out.

Pretty sure he was explicitly saying he'd be interested in listening to your argument if you would provide some evidence...

I too would like to see some evidence.

 

[starfishprime]

Pretty sure he was explicitly saying he'd be interested in listening to your argument if you would provide some evidence...

You're quite right. I'm interested in something that doesn't immediately strike as baseless mudslinging.

 

[sirus_virus]

why are you guys shooting down sirus_virus? He knows what he's talking about, what's more he's been there. We can all say that debt is meaningless but without having been through med school it doesn't mean much.
True sometimes unhappy residents come in here and say MED SKOOL IS EVILLLL...but this isn't the same kind of thread.

SV I agree with you but do you really think letters are going to do it? I'm just armchair quarterbacking here but it seems like the best way to change things would be to get a big powerful lobby like the nurses have...but lobbying costs money so it's a catch-22 😕

The point is to let them know that the consumer/victim of their scheme is aware of the situation. I have talked to administrators who admit what is going on is flat out wrong. The AMA has attempted raising the issue numerous times too. These are school administrators talking, yet some pre-med is up here justifying his/her imminent heist.

 

[GoSpursGo]

The point is to let them know that the consumer/victim of their scheme is aware of the situation. I have talked to administrators who admit what is going on is flat out wrong. The AMA has attempted raising the issue numerous times too. These are school administrators talking, yet some pre-med is up here justifying his/her imminent heist.

Again, that's fascinating... but you can understand that I'd probably be even dumber if I took everything I read on an anonymous internet message board at face value. I'd love to hear any information that you can substantiate with useful links.

 

[sirus_virus]

For those of who think this is just a madman's rant, let me quote a senior attending/faculty who just happens to share my views on this. "Today's medical student is taking a financial risk like no other generation of physicians have ever taken, I don't envy them one bit."

He is right too, because non of the older physicians or administrators understand how this generation of premeds are going to come out of debt with the declining pay and the ever rising tuition. Even the medschool administrators do not know how you are freaking going to come out of the mess, what does that tell you? Don't even take my word for it, go to the fafsa website and use their automated tool to find out how much you need to make a year to avoid "economic hardship" for a certain debt level. When you type in 200K it will tell you 270k/year, but the average physician makes about 190K. So, even the people giving you the money are telling you that you are well on your way to economic hardship. Notice I did not add interest accrued during residency. Guys, you are in brand new territory, and in the words of the famous DMX, some people are "walking around like brand new p&ssies about to get ****ed".

 

[cpants]

Debt's no problem. Inflation will take care of it. In 10 years we'll be paying $500 for a gallon of milk, so your 250k in debt will seem like nothing.

 

[sirus_virus]

Again, that's fascinating... but you can understand that I'd probably be even dumber if I took everything I read on an anonymous internet message board at face value. I'd love to hear any information that you can substantiate with useful links.

It is not hard to for anyone to say anything, so don't worry about who said what. I could be lying out my teeth for all you know, but numbers don't lie. Crunch the numbers for yourself, then tell me when and how today’s medstudent is going to dig him/herself out of 200K debt with the present declining conditions. Also, track the rise in tuition and tell me if it falls in line with any other economic metric (inflation etc). See, I will never try to convince anyone hell bent on paying that much because that person has clearly processed the potential consequences. What I don’t like is the self soothing denial people soak themselves in.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Debt's no problem. Inflation will take care of it. In 10 years we'll be paying $500 for a gallon of milk, so your 250k in debt will seem like nothing.

I drink a lot of milk.

 

[tennisball80]

Just so you know, medical schools are charging all that money because people are willing to take that much in loans. It is time pre-meds start opening their eyes to the realities. If you take ~200k in loans for medschool, you are doomed financially, that is a fact. It is time pre-meds start resisting the fraudulent forces sucking them into these schemes run by our medschools. Start writing to congress and state governments, and let them know the real barrier to affordable healthcare in America is the hidden degree peddlers producing heavily debt laden physicians, who have no choice but to propagate a money first pt last type of healthcare system.

Stop feeding the the madness, stand up against the heist. They preach altruism, but they practice grand theft.

How about we let this guy deals the problem.

 

[starfishprime]

OK. I've crunched the numbers. Let's compare a FP doctor who takes out $300k in educational loans and starts at $130,000 salary, to a college grad who makes $60k starting (a salary not outside possibility for those of us with real majors).

In your estimation, the doctor is 'doomed' financially. Well, let's see how it would go down.

Care to guess which one is the FP? Care to guess when the FP is out of debt?

If you're interested, the net disparity in compensation between the two over a career amounts to just over $800,000 based on certain conservative assumptions. So, yeah, we're all utter idiots and will never emerge from our puddles of debt - especially not in just 9 short years in practice.

(If there is interest[in seeing the spreadsheet], I can polish up and post the spreadsheet.)

 

[niranjan162]

OK. I've crunched the numbers. Let's compare a FP doctor who takes out $300k in educational loans and starts at $130,000 salary, to a college grad who makes $60k starting (a salary not outside possibility for those of use with real majors).

In your estimation, the doctor is 'doomed' financially. Well, let's see how it would go down.

Care to guess which one is the FP? Care to guess when the FP is out of debt?

If you're interested, the net disparity in compensation between the two over a career amounts to just over $800,000 based on certain conservative assumptions. So, yeah, we're all utter idiots and will never emerge from our puddles of debt - especially not in just 9 short years in practice.

(If there is interest, I can polish up and post the spreadsheet.)

The college grad will also have been working for 7-12 years earlier.

Interest will be accruing on the debt for 3-7 years.

 

[niranjan162]

Interest is a pretty f*kn important detail. Especially when you consider that the loophole that allowed residents the option of not paying so much before their attending years is being phased out.

It was the economic hardship deferment. And it was that you didnt have to pay down that debt AT ALL until after residency, which is huge.

 

[starfishprime]

People, of course I accounted interest (6% in the graph), inflation (3% in the graph), income tax (30% physician, 20% private sector), pay raises (6% for both in the graph) everything. I meant, if people are interested in seeing the spreadsheet I can post it.

 

[starfishprime]

Interest is a pretty f*kn important detail. Especially when you consider that the loophole that allowed residents the option of not paying so much before their attending years is being phased out.

Go back and reread. The language should have been obvious, but I've edited in case.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I like the part, Starfish, where you metion real majors. Makes me think about hte people I know majoring in linguistics or the guy from my hs who got into harvard to study poetry.

 

[starfishprime]

I quoted you because I had a hunch you'd edit that part about NOT INCLUDING INTEREST in your graph.

The language as written was unambiguous.

I like the part, Starfish, where you metion real majors. Makes me think about hte people I know majoring in linguistics or the guy from my hs who got into harvard to study poetry.

They will have a tough time finding $60k jobs.

 

[Drogba]

Go ahead and post the spreadsheet starfish, I always like neurotically detailed and organized analysis ;] I like making charts and tables myself for all kinds of things...

EDIT: A couple of comments: I understand you are trying to be conservative in your estimates and thats why you chose 300k debt (when avg debt is ~140k) and FP salary of 130k (when avg in practice for more than a year is ~150k, FP is lowest paying speciality and only 40% of practicing physicians are in ANY of the primary care fields). However, you assumption of pay raises for physicians is probably very inaccurate as current trends indicate that physician compensation is not even increasing at the same rate of inflation. Perhaps you should include a raise of -1% or something for physicians .

 

[niranjan162]

Still doesnt like the time difference is being taken into account. Opportunity cost and wut not.

 

[mfrizzo3]

The college grad will also have been working for 7-12 years earlier.

Interest will be accruing on the debt for 3-7 years.

Call me crazy......but you might want to work on those mad graph skillz of yours before you take the MCAT.

 

[niranjan162]

Call me crazy......but you might want to work on those mad graph skillz of yours before you take the MCAT.

😕

If youre referring to the discrepancy between the numbers, its because the 7-12 years is including medschool. While the 3-7 years is just residency.

 

[mfrizzo3]

😕

If youre referring to the discrepancy between the numbers, its because the 7-12 years is including medschool. While the 3-7 years is just residency.

Nah, I'm just adding to the stupidity of this analysis. Besides, he doesn't take into account by 2020 all Family El Doctoros will be replaced by flow-chart wielding Nurse Practitioners.

 

[niranjan162]

Nah, I'm just adding to the stupidity of this analysis. Besides, he doesn't take into account by 2020 all Family El Doctoros will be replaced by flow-chart wielding Nurse Practitioners.

yea, I didnt make the chart.

 

[starfishprime]

It is irrationally large (~6mb; blame Microsoft), but available here.

 

[scarletgirl777]

I like the part, Starfish, where you metion real majors. Makes me think about hte people I know majoring in linguistics or the guy from my hs who got into harvard to study poetry.

Man that's just harsh. Liberal arts majors are not directly preparatory for career paths, and bio/physics/chem etc are no exception. If you want to go into research you need a graduate degree. People do the duties of a lab tech while still in school so a bachelors in these degrees aren't really necessary either. Getting a job is about marketing yourself mostly.

/tangent

 

[starfishprime]

Nah, I'm just adding to the stupidity of this analysis. Besides, he doesn't take into account by 2020 all Family El Doctoros will be replaced by flow-chart wielding Nurse Practitioners.

In other words, "starfishprime's sound fiscal analysis thoroughly dominated my preconceptions into submission, but I will defend my irrational assumptions about the future of medicine with wild-eyed platitudes."

 

[mfrizzo3]

yea, I didnt make the chart.

Hey, it's 2am give a man a break.

 

[flip26]

People, of course I accounted interest (6% in the graph), inflation (3% in the graph), income tax (30% physician, 20% private sector), pay raises (6% for both in the graph) everything. I meant, if people are interested in seeing the spreadsheet I can post it.

Wrong - how do you forecast 6 percent growth in physician income when it has been steadily decreasing for the last decade?

 

[Meade]

Edit.

 

[sirus_virus]

Wrong - how do you forecast 6 percent growth in physician income when it has been steadily decreasing for the last decade?

No ****, physicians' have lost 10% income in the last 8 years.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

The language as written was unambiguous.



They will have a tough time finding $60k jobs.

Yeah, seriously.

Man that's just harsh. Liberal arts majors are not directly preparatory for career paths, and bio/physics/chem etc are no exception. If you want to go into research you need a graduate degree. People do the duties of a lab tech while still in school so a bachelors in these degrees aren't really necessary either. Getting a job is about marketing yourself mostly.

/tangent

Yeah, it's true that bio/physics/chem aren't directly preparatory for career paths, especially if you do something like botany or something. But I would say they are much more adept at getting a higher paying job. I think you could work for a biotech company like genetech or amgen with a straight BS degree. Also, one can transition to realm of engineering fairly easily by taking a few more advanced math classes and doing a masters in engineering, which would give a much higher earning potential.

 

[m015094]

No ****, physicians' have lost 10% income in the last 8 years.

You truly are one greedy money-hungry bastard. If you're so concerned about debt, why don't you sack up and join a program that will pay for you med school - military, civil service, underserved cities, etc. If you're trying to propagate some myth about how "poor" physicians are, you are being disingenuous and I would love to hear you try that conversation with your patients and see how far they are willing to put up with your BS.

 

[atomi]

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