Dismiss Notice

Interview Feedback: Visit Interview Feedback to view and submit interview information.

Interviewing Masterclass: Free masterclass on interviewing from SDN and Medical College of Georgia

Dismiss Notice
Hey Texans—join us for a DFW meetup! Click here to learn more.

People using veterinary drugs

Discussion in 'Pre-Veterinary' started by sofficat, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. sofficat

    sofficat AU CVM c/o 11
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    648
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    So we all know how illegal this is, but I think it is quite common- not only in the vet world but the large animal world, rodeo guys, etc. It may be as 'innocent' as an antihistamine when that certain Shar-pei comes in the clinic or as hard core as 'bute for that ol' cowboy who has all that back pain.

    Have you had any experiences with it? Well, not you specifically, but instances you've heard about.
     
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. JustCats

    JustCats UC Davis SVM c/o 2013!
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    I heard an urban legend about taking clavamox tablets for cat bites instead of going in to the doctor for augmentin. ;) My doctor has given me a refillable augmentin scrip.

    By the way--which antihistimine are you talking about? It's more likely you're giving the Shar-pei a benadryl labeled for human use than it is that you are taking a dog antihistimine--and that's available for humans without a scrip.
     
  4. eventualeventer

    eventualeventer Medical Tire Fire
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,257
    Likes Received:
    409
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Fairly common in the horse world.

    Surpass (diclofenac cream) is one of the more commonly used drugs among the horse people I know -- a similar product (same drug, same route) is available in people by prescription. They (cough) say (cough) that it works really well for arthritic joints and ligamentous inflammation.

    A racetrack hangover cure I have heard of (not used!) is 1 or 2 cc of Banamine in a glass of orange juice.

    A lot of drugs are the same in human and animal medicine and a lot of the pills used are the actual human product, so it amounts to taking a human drug without a prescription. E.g., TMP-SMX (human brand name Bactrim), doxycycline, etc. I've used triple antibiotic eye ointment on cuts when I ran out of Neosporin, although the latter is OTC.
     
  5. sofficat

    sofficat AU CVM c/o 11
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    648
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Well, that's kind of the point. A lot of the drugs on the shelves of vet clinics are labeled for human use, like antibiotics, but we can't use them because we would need an rx. I was thinking of chlorpheniramine but benadryl I guess is the safe and legal alternative (would chlorph. even be illegal?). Or the genesis spray. We had an open bottle of that in the back and that came in handy when that specific cat rubbed on your neck and you broke out in hives.
     
  6. JustCats

    JustCats UC Davis SVM c/o 2013!
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    The chlorpheniramine is sold under the trade name Allerest which I believe I get OTC. I don't know about genesis spray.
     
  7. david594

    david594 The-OSU CVM c/o 2013
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,127
    Likes Received:
    34
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    After you have the allergic reaction to the bactrim(sulfamethoxazole-trimethoprim) you took for the cat bite(because your clavamox is at oddball dosages compared to human augmentin) and bactrim is dirt cheap in comparison, of course you are going to take some diphenhydramine home.

    .... and of course I just made that up.
     
  8. sofficat

    sofficat AU CVM c/o 11
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    648
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    We had a discussion about this in pharmacy last semester. Although 1-2 cc seems like quite a lot (I've heard 1/4 cc does the trick) this is pretty commonly used in the large animal world. I've read some case studies online- when you use a horse NSAID you've got to be thinking gastric ulcers ... so I looked it up http://www.theannals.com/cgi/content/full/42/3/448
    53 yo man had been taking 1.5 cc sid for 3 months before he had gastric ulcers (pretty bad ones). The other lady had been taking 1 cc BID for 6 weeks without any side effects.
    Someone I know gets really really bad migraines and she has tried all the human rx for them. The only thing that consistently works is banamine, and it works within 10 minutes... so she says. It seems like an amazing drug... too bad people can't use it! Although I have heard it is legal in other countries ?? don't know if that is true.
     
  9. hizarlow

    hizarlow Junior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    We were talking about people breaking into vet clinics and stealing drugs. These were obviously people without much veterinary knowledge. They stole apormorphine, probably because it has then name morphine, and oxytocin, looks like oxycotin. Now you know that was a bad night.
     
  10. Groominator

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    Oh I've had an allergic reaction to bactrim before (prescribed it as a child for juvenile RA). I should make a mental note about that one. And I have diclofenac for that same RA. I have nothing of actual content to add to this thread, I just felt special because i saw those drugs mentioned.

    I've heard of using fish meds for cheap antibiotics. You can get capsules of pennicillin and amoxycillin for fish tank use at any fish/pet store. I've heard of people using those instead of buying real prescription pills. I would be too scared to do it myself though.
     
  11. VeganChick

    VeganChick Tufts University V'13
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Sort of along the same lines...how about employees taking something (even if it is OTC for humans) from the pharmacy? I imagine it is considered stealing, but it is far from uncommon (even with the doctors). I am thinking of things like taking a famoditine which I have taken but feel awfully guilty about.
     
  12. BodhiBird

    BodhiBird TCSVM c/o 2013
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    I had an ear ache a couple years ago, a vet took a look with the otoscope and I used some ear drops that said "for dogs only," forget which kind... cleared it right up. I've also taken cephalexin from our shelf for a nasty cat scratch. Most of the antibiotics are the same in human and animal medicine, as long as you aren't trying to cure something serious I don't see the harm in it.
     
  13. bmichs75DVM

    bmichs75DVM OSU CVM c/o 2013
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Many amish clients take advantage of the large animal vets supply of SMZ liquid for diarrhea. Although not real common, it is the same active ingredient in human labeled anti-diarrheas. I actually witnessed this on Monday.
     
  14. No Imagination

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,023
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Veterinarian
    The head tech were I used to work was fired because she was caught stealing and using phenobarbital.

    At them time, I didn't even know phenobarbital was an abused substance.
     
  15. TurtleLover

    TurtleLover LSU SVM c/o 2013!!
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Yea, I knew a girl who's dad was a veterinarian and she said she never went to the doctor growing up, that her dad would just treat her with medicines from the clinic. Sounded bad at first, but like you all have said, these medications are mostly the same as humans, just in different doses. I thought it was pretty interesting.
     
  16. StayingHopeful

    StayingHopeful UC Davis Class of 2013
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2009
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    My dad is an M.D. and he takes the human version of Metacam (Mobic) when he throws his back out -- but it's legit from his Dr., just funny that we use the same meds for our patients
     
  17. pyxystyx

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2008
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    But at some clinics, I have heard of/seen employeees come in with substance abuse addictions and use the job to feed their habit. I'm talking for real, getting caught with a syringe of morphine in your arm, or a group of employees popping pills together and partying.
    And I once saw someone write a prescription under their pet's name for Guafinesin-Codeine syrup (to keep the books right) and then walked around swiging it all day.
    I've also heard personal stories from 3 of my own friends about their doctors either committing suicide/trying to kill themselves with their own Blue Juice. :(
     
  18. david594

    david594 The-OSU CVM c/o 2013
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,127
    Likes Received:
    34
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Going to go out on a ledge here and say I think there is a HUGE difference between someone swiping a benadryl off the shelf and stealing from the lock box or forging prescriptions to acquire narcotics.
     
  19. No Imagination

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,023
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Veterinarian
    Did they change the color... it was always the "Pink Juice" for us
     
  20. david594

    david594 The-OSU CVM c/o 2013
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,127
    Likes Received:
    34
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Euthasol(pink) versus Fatal Plus(blue)
     
  21. Neoformans

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    At a clinic I use to volunteer at, the vet was bitten by a cat and she just grabbed the clavamox off the shelf and gulped it down right away. Isn't it the same antibiotic used in humans?
     
  22. No Imagination

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,023
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Veterinarian
    Well, technically, Clavomox is 2 antibiotics that work together (Amoxicillin and clavulanic acid) which is sold together in human med. as Augmentin.

    I cant remember what does what, but one prevents bacteria from breaking down the other.
     
  23. JustCats

    JustCats UC Davis SVM c/o 2013!
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Yes. The human version is called Augmentin. It's effective against Pasturella, the most common bacteria in a cat's mouth.
     
  24. BR549

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    My dad used to pop antibiotics prescribed for a horse. I don't know what they were, I was pretty young. I don't agree with it though. Microbial resistance is on the rise, due to people abusing anitibiotics.
     
  25. david594

    david594 The-OSU CVM c/o 2013
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,127
    Likes Received:
    34
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Technically only the Amoxicillin is really an antibiotic. The clavulanic acid has little to no anti-microbial activity on its own. Clavulanic acid is a beta-lactamase inhibitor so it prevents bacteria from producing the beta-lactamase enzyme. Amoxicillin being a beta-lactam antibiotic would otherwise be broken down by this enzyme thus rendering it ineffective against these bacteria.
     
  26. Tuttley

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinarian
    versus Lethabarb (green) aka "Green Dream"
     
  27. littlecaitling

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    I'm kinda surprised no one has mentioned ketamine yet. I don't personally know anyone who has used/abused it, but it's a fairly popular recreational drug.
     
  28. twelvetigers

    twelvetigers stabby cat
    Veterinarian 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,192
    Likes Received:
    8,944
    Status:
    Veterinarian
    Called it Special K for a giggle one day and the vet looked at me like I was bonkers... I suppose not everyone knows how common it is on the street?
     
  29. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2003
    Messages:
    8,392
    Likes Received:
    29
    Status:
    Attending Physician, Dentist
    Man, that's an expensive way to buy antibiotics. I actually did it the other way around. Rather than spend $20 on two boxes of OTC aquarium tetracycline, I just prescribed myself a bottle for $4. Worked great.
     
  30. JustCats

    JustCats UC Davis SVM c/o 2013!
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    If you're a medical professional it's cheaper to prescribe your own, but if you're indigent or don't have insurance and can't afford to see a doctor, OTC fish antibiotics are cheaper. Sad but not uncommon. :(
     
  31. JustCats

    JustCats UC Davis SVM c/o 2013!
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
  32. dreamvet

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    talking about people breaking into clinics to steal drugs.

    this guy with a wound (I think stab?) broke into an emergency clinic at gunpoint and demanded that a doctor I know suture him up. then he left. . . .

    the crazy part is, that i heard that he broke into another clinic that same night, but there was no Doctor on staff, so that clinic told the gunman that this other clinic DID have a doctor overnight. :confused:
     
  33. BodhiBird

    BodhiBird TCSVM c/o 2013
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    I worked with a vet who told me at a party how to extract all the ketamine from a hub and how I could save it all up to have a good time later on... I never followed through lol.

    Also, did you know it is phenobarbitol that Marilyn Monroe probably overdosed on? My dog as a kid was epileptic and on pheno for most of his life. I always pondered taking just one to see what it was like, but never did that either!

    I'd never take a narcotic or sedative or anything like that, but I always wondered what telazol would be like or maybe some "kitty magic." :laugh:
     
  34. starlene45

    starlene45 UC Davis SVM c/o 2013
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    389
    Likes Received:
    3
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Eventualeventer, this is really interesting-- I didn't know that there was a "human" form of Surpass--I think the instructions on the box say to use rubber gloves and I always wondered why this was the case, maybe just b/c it is not certified for OTC use in humans? There was definitely a mom at my old barn who had no qualms about rubbing the leftover Surpass from their horse onto her arthritic hands-- she loved it!

    Also, I have heard the same rumor about banamine, well, not as a hangover cure specifically, but I heard through the grapevine that a vet supposedly told someone I know that putting some banamine in a glass of juice or soda is a perfectly reasonable/safe thing to do. I think in this case the suggested dose was a few drops--honestly I think 2 ccs of Banamine would have me on the floor!:laugh:
     
  35. BodhiBird

    BodhiBird TCSVM c/o 2013
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    Yeah, I think 1-2 cc might be a bit much. I told a vet I work with about the banamine for a hang over and he told me he thinks a few drops would do it... he was surprised at 1-2 cc. It's funny cause this guy's a HUGE banamine fan and the younger vets we've worked with all give him a hard time for using it.
     
  36. Bill59

    Bill59 Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Messages:
    993
    Likes Received:
    7
    Yep. Diverting controlled substances is much more serious. The hospital/DVM can get in trouble with the DEA if their logs don't balance and good luck ever getting a license as a veterinarian if you have a drug conviction.
     
  37. sofficat

    sofficat AU CVM c/o 11
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    648
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    I don't think it is perfectly safe to do... there are a lot of side effects to NSAIDS, esp horse ones taken by people!... but it sure works miracles... or so I've heard. A few drops (as little as 0.2 cc) can do the trick (so I've heard).
    I think that 2 cc would have you on the floor all right... in pain from a stomach ulcer! :p
     
  38. eventualeventer

    eventualeventer Medical Tire Fire
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,257
    Likes Received:
    409
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Well, the old racetrack guys are not known for their dosage calculations, since popping "a bute" for the aching joints (which I have also heard of) means taking the same dose (1 gram) that you would give to a horse!

    Starlene, I think they put that on the label because they don't want people accidentally absorbing it when they did not mean to use it on themselves. Some people might be allergic to diclofenac or one of the carriers, or extremely sensitive to NSAID's in general (a negligible amount is absorbed into the systemic circulation, but I would guess if you are very sensitive you would not want to absorb any at all). Further, if you are a professional horse person who is handling these drugs every day (Surpass, DMSO, Furacin), I think the potential risks from long-term, even low-level, use (not to mention the interaction of substances!) is greater than for your average horse owner who may only use Surpass occasionally. In general, IMHO, it's probably better to minimize occupational exposure to drugs because of potential effects of long-term use and haphazard dosing.

    I did not know that there was a human version in the U.S. of Surpass, either, until I started talking to a girl at the barn who works for the FDA as a pharmacy geek. I knew that there was a similar product licensed in Canada, and diclofenac pills are available by prescription in the U.S. -- I think one of the trade names is Voltaren.
     
  39. starlene45

    starlene45 UC Davis SVM c/o 2013
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    389
    Likes Received:
    3
    Status:
    Veterinary Student

    Sofficat, I totally agree! I was pretty surprised when I heard that rumor, but again, the rumor mill in the horse world is totally out of control... And as eventualeventer mentioned, horse people are not necessarily known for their caution when it comes to dipping into the medicine chest! The other thing I have seen is people dipping into the equine robaxin bottle-- luckily those tablets aren't too huge of a dose!!
     
  40. Groominator

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    Yep Voltaren is diclofenac for humans. They've got a cute red stick figure logo. As a kid, I used to prefer Voltaren ointment by far to other arthritis meds (for juvenile RA). The other ointment I was given was Indometacin and it had the most awful odor, and stayed greasy for hours. It made my pajamas stick to my knees, ick.
     
  41. No Imagination

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,023
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Veterinarian
    I was a 'raver' kid in my youth, and while I will not say I've NEVER experimented, man, ketamine goes WAY beyond anything I would have ever even thought of.

    That $hit is nasty stuff, and i've seen more then a few people get taken out of clubs in ketamine induced coma's.

    The crazy part of it, is the nasty comatose effect is apparently the intended effect, and not some rare side reaction.

    Nah, I feel bad for the cats that get that stuff.

    These days its caffeine and chocolate for me
     
  42. david594

    david594 The-OSU CVM c/o 2013
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,127
    Likes Received:
    34
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Apparently the stuff smells really strongly of cinnamon when its smoked. So if your every at a rave and you smell it, now you will know.

    Call me crazy, but I have always really liked the way ketamine works in cats. Ket/val induction and you end up with a fairly quick recovery post op. Now telazol on the other hand.... eh, I feel pretty bad for cats who get that.
     
  43. 168135

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,415
    Likes Received:
    3
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    I don't see how it's "funny" that humans and animals use the same medications... like it or not, animals and humans get the same illnesses and conditions. Doesn't make us any less human if we're using the same medication that can be used on a dog... and it doesn't make the dog any more human... it's just how it is.

    Just a pet peeve of mine :p
     
  44. Fairyblastt

    Fairyblastt UC Davis class of 2013
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Lol. Really when you think of it, we're all just slight medical variations of the lab rat, for which all drugs and treatments are designed. ;)
     
  45. bmichs75DVM

    bmichs75DVM OSU CVM c/o 2013
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    If you think telazol is bad for cats, ever euthanize feral cats with a xylazine sedative? The cats basically OD and go into seizures before becoming sedated.
     
  46. JustCats

    JustCats UC Davis SVM c/o 2013!
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    I'm curious, and somewhat horrified, because I've never seen xylazine used on cats unless mixed with k or t/k: Are you saying xylazine alone was used to kill the cats; or do you mean it was used alone as pre-euthanasia solution? Whichever you mean, is that common where you're at?
     
  47. bmichs75DVM

    bmichs75DVM OSU CVM c/o 2013
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    It’s a common pre-euthanasia solution used to basically knock them out. This is used on feral cats because you cannot get close to them. But let me tell you from experience, even under xylazine, they can still wake up. My two 7in scares are my forearm are proof of that. It just makes these cats more manageable to work with.
     
  48. JustCats

    JustCats UC Davis SVM c/o 2013!
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Thanks for the clarification. We always use the xylazine in combination with ketamine to keep this from happening. Using xylazine alone is inhumane in my opinion and, as proven by your own experience, unsafe for the people handling the cats.

    Sorry for the thread hijack but, since feral cats are my area of expertise:

    If a feral cat is in, or can be transferred to, either a trap or a transfer cage and an isolator is available, the cat can be sedated completely before being removed from the container for surgery or to be euthanized if necessary. No one ever gets hurt this way and it's much less traumatic for the cat. I have several vets I work with and I provide each with the necessary equipment and training on how to use it, but if a vet doesn't have that kind of relationship with someone who cares for feral cats, it seems like it would be a wise investment in equipment for him/her to make to minimize injury to employees. It's less than $100 for the transfer cage and isolator.

    Transfer Cage/feral cat carrier

    Isolator

    A more expensive option:

    Squeeze cage
     
  49. david594

    david594 The-OSU CVM c/o 2013
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,127
    Likes Received:
    34
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    If not then just a big old fishing net is good to have around.:D
     
  50. JustCats

    JustCats UC Davis SVM c/o 2013!
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    Somewhat more traumatic for the cat, but certainly better than bare hands!:thumbup:
     
  51. vnair2

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    I know its off topic, but out of curiosity why do you consider xylazine alone inhumane (keeping in mind that I know nothing about the drug).

    Thanks
     

Share This Page