Perimortem C-Sections

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alphaholic06

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How many of you have actually done one or witnessed one? I recently had an Ob attending tell me that this was not within the scope of practice of EM, which I found to be ridiculous. She actually said that if I ever had a case where one was needed and there was no Ob around that I should do nothing and let the baby die.😱
 
How many of you have actually done one or witnessed one? I recently had an Ob attending tell me that this was not within the scope of practice of EM, which I found to be ridiculous. She actually said that if I ever had a case where one was needed and there was no Ob around that I should do nothing and let the baby die.😱

Gotta love how other specialties think they are more familiar with our scope of practice than we are...or that they get to define our scope...👎

HH

...but to answer your question: No, I have never performed a peri-mortem C/S nor witnessed one.
 
Why? You have time to wait for OB/GYN, and you could hurt the patient.

There is some evidence that if mom is markedly hypotensive (even if awake) the two minute clock begins in which time you have to get baby out....there is no time to wait for OB in most cases as it is not two minutes to cut, its two minutes to have baby in hand.

I have not done it, and hope not to ever have to either...but i read about it a lot as I do with all the other things I fear having to do.

TL
 
I have done one...I pray I never again have to even think of it again on a patient, let alone do one.

To all the students and residents; it sounds and looks sexy, but there is nothing fun about cutting open a dead YOUNG woman and scooping out a dead (usually) fetus and trying resuscitate both/either. Lots of blood and rarely a positive outcome...🙁
 
The perimortem C-section has been referred to as "the Holy Grail of emergency medicine". The term "Holy Grail" refers back to Arthurian legend; also part of the legend is that the quest for the Holy Grail decimated the Round Table.

There was a presentation we had from Ob/Gyn in residency about survival rates after perimortem C-section, and they were dismal. As I recall, 11/15 neonates survived the procedure, but none survived to either 2 or 5 years old, and none were not neurologically devastated.
 
I had an ob attending specifically tell me it was within the scope of practice for an EP in a crash scenario. The scary part like many rare invasive procedures we do is actually making the call to do it. One of the things to keep in mind is that in the arresting patient its been said to improve the hemodynamics of the mom as well. Still I hope to never have to do one.
 
Never done it. Never seen it. Hope I never do.
To perform an emergency C-section on a live patient is out of the scope of practice of an EM physician (unless you have special obstetric training beyond the norm). Why? You have time to wait for OB/GYN, and you could hurt the patient. However, performing a c-section on a dead patient, i.e. lost vital signs seconds or minutes ago, is not out of the scope since you can't hurt a dead person. You might however, save a baby's life. If you've declared the women dead, what harm is to come from opening the uterus to deliver a live baby? Ask your OB consultant that question. A classic example of a consultant who "just doesn't get it".

I asked her this exact question. Her answer was that an EM physician wouldn't know how to properly remove the baby from the uterus, i.e. removing the baby by the legs instead of the head, or that we may cut the baby while making the incision. 🙄
 
I asked her this exact question. Her answer was that an EM physician wouldn't know how to properly remove the baby from the uterus, i.e. removing the baby by the legs instead of the head, or that we may cut the baby while making the incision. 🙄

That's just silly. Even if I don't know how to get the baby out of the uterus or I cut it I'll take a live, cut baby over the dead one.

I would suggest gently that OB/Gyn may not be the experts in the peri-mortum C-section. The procedure itself is thankfully very rare. The OBs are not going to encounter very many on the L&D floor. When they do happen they happen they happen in the trauma bay, surrounded by EM and surgery and possibly OB if they responded to a page quickly enough.

This is definitely within the scope of EM. My DOPs list it specifically and it would fall under any EP's "emergency clause." Furthermore any plaintiff will have no trouble finding ample experts to say that it is part of the EM scope and is a well described EM procedure. With dead mom and baby and grieving baby daddy in the front row giving them some very sympathetic victims I'd be reluctant not to try.

Thankfully I haven't had to do it and I haven't seen one. I echo the others to say I pray I never do.

Be careful of letting other specialties tell you what any other specialty's scope is. They are often misinformed and basing their suppositions on personal opinion and anecdotal experience (e.g. "I talked to an EP once who said he wouldn't feel comfortable doing it so no EP should ever do it.") I have noticed that their comfort level with me doing procedures in their area of practice expands exponentially once they are in bed.
 
I saw one when I was a medic. Was transporting a young woman, mid-3rd trimester who presented in HF. She crumped on us few minutes out from the facility. Couldn't be resuscitated and the ED doc (after consulting OB who hadn't yet made it in after the initial page) decided to get the baby out. Was probably the bloodiest thing I've ever seen. I know the kid survived the procedure, but I don't know how he turned out long term.
 
From an anatomical standpoint, it's not really that difficult--you basically just make a vertical incision along the linea nigra and then cut through fat, fascia, and then uterus.

I see the biggest technical hurdle arising after the procedure. Now you're resuscitating 2 critically ill pts, both of whom have the deck stacked against them. 1) the mom in her peri-arrest state 2) the baby who had no intentions of leaving the hot tub that early, along with nurses and docs who very infrequently do neonatology and likely don't even have the tools in the ED to do so.

I guess I look at it like an ED thoracotomy--indicated in a very specific set of circumstances with predicted dismal outcomes. If any of the circumstances don't fit (i.e. mom down too long, baby not of viable age, etc), I don't think anybody would fault you for doing it or not doing it. Also, if you don't have the downstream support at your facility (i.e. ob/gyns, neonatology) quickly and readily available, I don't don't think you'd be faulted either way.
 
http://crime.about.com/od/women/a/MichelleBica.htm

Another case of a total nutjob who successfully did a perimortem C section in her garage (then passed the baby off as her own). Doesn't make me any less scared of the prospect myself.

I did, though, work at a military institution that specifically denied privileges for perimortem C sections and burr holes for EM docs.
 
Saw one-- Pregnant teenager shot in the chest, arrested en route. Got an ED thoracotomy and perimortem c-section at the same time! Mom never regained vitals, baby died on arrival to the NICU.

No more, please.
 
Seen a' couple in the ED but they were more for practice as the pt was actually outside the window for successful resuc. OB there and actually performed the procedure.

IMO, If done, better done in the field by EMS. If EMS waits until in ED arrival, it's too late.

I'm not opposed to the procedure if the right circumstances arise... I live by "whadya have to lose" but I've been called a cowboy before.

RAGE
 
Seen a' couple in the ED but they were more for practice as the pt was actually outside the window for successful resuc. OB there and actually performed the procedure.

IMO, If done, better done in the field by EMS. If EMS waits until in ED arrival, it's too late.

I'm not opposed to the procedure if the right circumstances arise... I live by "whadya have to lose" but I've been called a cowboy before.

RAGE

out of curiosity....why did OB need practice doing this?

TL
 
Seen a' couple in the ED but they were more for practice as the pt was actually outside the window for successful resuc. OB there and actually performed the procedure.

IMO, If done, better done in the field by EMS. If EMS waits until in ED arrival, it's too late.

I'm not opposed to the procedure if the right circumstances arise... I live by "whadya have to lose" but I've been called a cowboy before.

RAGE

😱

Pretty sure there was a case in '97 (old but the only case I know of) where two medics lost their cards for this. They were acting under medical control but it still violated State limits on scope for EMS. Frankly even with medical controls blessing I don't think I would attempt this. . .
 
How many of you have actually done one or witnessed one? I recently had an Ob attending tell me that this was not within the scope of practice of EM, which I found to be ridiculous. She actually said that if I ever had a case where one was needed and there was no Ob around that I should do nothing and let the baby die.😱

Haven't done one. Am not going to do one.

Say you have that 1 in a million shot, you do a perimortem C-section and you get a living baby out. What do you plan on saying on the stand at your malpractice trial when that living baby has cerebral palsy?

As far as not faulting you, if there's any possible way you can be faulted, you will be. Don't forget that there is an entire profession out there dedicated to preying upon physicians.
 
out of curiosity....why did OB need practice doing this?

TL

Because it's residency and "Emergency C-sections" are much different than C-section performed in the comfort of the OR. I'm not saying I agree, but the reality was, there was nothing to lose.

As a student, I saw many procedures performed in the ED that I now realize were not indicated. This was all done for the sake of residency training, which I think is a good thing. Performing difficult procedure when there is "nothing to lose" makes one better prepared when the appropriate situation arises and the patient has everything to lose.

And, as for the EMS scope of practice, If it's against the rules, fine, they shouldn't do it. But, I'm pretty sure this is not the case in every state. There are several paramedics at my institution that are awesome and I would have no problem performing a resuc after the decision was made in the field. Is it gonna get questioned and reviewed, absolutely, but I went into this profession because I had the sac to save lives. I wanted to be trained to save lives. I wanted be the one that knew what to do and had the gumption to do it.

You can stand in the corner and worry about the lawyers, or you can do what your trained to do.

RAGE

Disclosure: I have a child with a disability and I've resuc'd a baby that was delivered by emergent C-section in the ED...Both lived!
 
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Seen two in 7 years, never done on. One both died, the other the mom died, the baby did well.

1. Remember that removal of the fetus can help with the maternal resuscitation by taking some load off the IVC helping preload, lowering the diaphragm increasing the ability for pulmonary excursion. Lastly, something ~25% of total blood volume is going to that fetus, so if you don't make a bloody mess of it, it should help.

2. 100% within our scope.

3. I hope to never do one.

4. For the students/residents on OB, go into several C-Sections with OB (not to assist, but to visualize the layers and procedure). Overall not easy by any means, but I'd take it over a thoracotomy any day.

5. Make SURE that gravid uterus is definitely above the umbilicus, you don't want a 18 week mess to deal with.
 
4. For the students/residents on OB, go into several C-Sections with OB (not to assist, but to visualize the layers and procedure). Overall not easy by any means, but I'd take it over a thoracotomy any day.

Procedurally I agree 100%. Psychologically I'll take a thoracotomy over it any day.
 
We have more business performing a peri-mortem C-section than some of the surgical procedures I've seen GYNs and GYN-Oncs perform.

I'm only half kidding.
 
Seen two in 7 years, never done on. One both died, the other the mom died, the baby did well.

1. Remember that removal of the fetus can help with the maternal resuscitation by taking some load off the IVC helping preload, lowering the diaphragm increasing the ability for pulmonary excursion. Lastly, something ~25% of total blood volume is going to that fetus, so if you don't make a bloody mess of it, it should help.

2. 100% within our scope.

3. I hope to never do one.

4. For the students/residents on OB, go into several C-Sections with OB (not to assist, but to visualize the layers and procedure). Overall not easy by any means, but I'd take it over a thoracotomy any day.

5. Make SURE that gravid uterus is definitely above the umbilicus, you don't want a 18 week mess to deal with.

I don't think so. One of the rules of one of my crusty trauma attendings was that when you are in the OR with an open abdomen you are not resuscitating. Too much fluid loss, cytokines, tissue injury, that sort of thing. Not to mention CPR would have to be interrupted - I'm not doing an emergency laparotomy on a moving patient.

Plus the chance that an EM doc could do it and have some degree of decent surgical hemostasis is low, low, low.

So you're taking a pulseless patient and rather than doing high quality CPR you are opening a body cavity and causing bleeding.

I think if I did it I'd have to say mom was probably a goner and focus on baby.
 
I don't think so. One of the rules of one of my crusty trauma attendings was that when you are in the OR with an open abdomen you are not resuscitating. Too much fluid loss, cytokines, tissue injury, that sort of thing. Not to mention CPR would have to be interrupted - I'm not doing an emergency laparotomy on a moving patient.

Plus the chance that an EM doc could do it and have some degree of decent surgical hemostasis is low, low, low.

So you're taking a pulseless patient and rather than doing high quality CPR you are opening a body cavity and causing bleeding.

I think if I did it I'd have to say mom was probably a goner and focus on baby.

It has been shown many times that fetal extracation improves maternal circulation as well as increase probability of survival for both. Even if you know that the fetus has died a peri-mortem C section is still indicated in an effort to improve maternal survival.
 
According to a recent review the studies that showed improved survival were from the early 80's, and by retrospective review. I'd be curious to know who was performing the procedures, OB or ER physicians and the number in these studies. If mom needs some more preload, that can can be accomplished with fluid and lateral positioning. We've done one to two of these a year in our ED for trauma (I'm a general surgery resident) with OB performing the procedure, and there always legendary flails. I'm not nescesarily against a non Ob performing it if mom has been pulseless for a couple of minutes, but to suspect you're gonna do any good for the mother, I believe, is wishful thinking.

On another topic, in our institution our staff is vehemently against ED thoracotomy exept in the most exterme circumstances, i.e. penetrating trauma to chest loss of pulse in ED or just before arrival, and I agree. The needle stick, exposure rate during these procedures is extremely high and the pt if they come back ~.5-15% depending on study is usually neurologically devastated. Plus at our place it takes just a couple minutes to get to the trauma OR. It's usually worth it as far as better lighting, suction, instruments, anesthesia resucuitation.

You could argue that not all institutions have a dedicated OR or a surgeon around, but if you don't, what's the point? If you manage to open the chest and cross clamp the aorta, not easy feats in the Er, and the patient comes back he needs an operation right then and there. If he has a pulmonary hilar injury or great vessel he's almost certainly done. The only survivable injury in this scenario would like be a single stab wound to the ventricle causing tamponade, that you could decompress than hold pressure, but if there's no surgeon readily available, the pt's probably done.
 
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On another topic, in our institution our staff is vehemently against ED thoracotomy except in the most extreme circumstances, i.e. penetrating trauma to chest loss of pulse in ED or just before arrival, and I agree. The needle stick, exposure rate during these procedures is extremely high and the pt if they come back ~.5-15% depending on study is usually neurologically devastated. Plus at our place it takes just a couple minutes to get to the trauma OR. It's usually worth it as far as better lighting, suction, instruments, anesthesia resuscitation.

You could argue that not all institutions have a dedicated OR or a surgeon around, but if you don't, what's the point? If you manage to open the chest and cross clamp the aorta, not easy feats in the Er, and the patient comes back he needs an operation right then and there. If he has a pulmonary hilar injury or great vessel he's almost certainly done. The only survivable injury in this scenario would like be a single stab wound to the ventricle causing tamponade, that you could decompress than hold pressure, but if there's no surgeon readily available, the pt's probably done.

All you've said is taught to EM residents. As you know, we, too, do know. Penetrating trauma losing pulse in the ED/at the door is the only indication, and having CT-surgery available is required (because, as you say, if there's no surgeon available, the pt's done - what do you do with them once they're clam-shelled and cross-clamped?).
 
I guess my point which I conveyed poorly is I don't see a role for an ER physican performing ED thoracotomy. If a surgeon isn't available, what's the point, and if a surgeon is available, they should be the one doing it (If anyone should do it is debatable). Don't mean to come off as a specialist telling the ER their scope of care, you have to do what needs to be done, and it's not like you're going to hurt the patient, but food for thought.

Perimortem c-section on the other hand, in a moribund patient, I think you could make an argument for the ER performing for the sake of the baby but not the mom.
 
I guess my point which I conveyed poorly is I don't see a role for an ER physican performing ED thoracotomy. If a surgeon isn't available, what's the point, and if a surgeon is available, they should be the one doing it (If anyone should do it is debatable). Don't mean to come off as a specialist telling the ER their scope of care, you have to do what needs to be done, and it's not like you're going to hurt the patient, but food for thought.

Perimortem c-section on the other hand, in a moribund patient, I think you could make an argument for the ER performing for the sake of the baby but not the mom.

You make a good point. The current ACS/ATLS teaching is that you shouldn't do a thoracotomy (assuming all the other stuff like penetrating trauma with loss of pulse on or just before presentation) unless there is a surgeon available to take the patient to the OR immediately. Most of us read that as if there's a surgeon in the building that can be there in the next 10 minuets or so and the patient codes in front of me and presumably can't wait those 10 minutes I should do it. Thankfully the window for thoracotomies is getting smaller and smaller.

Could we see a situation in the near future where thoracotomy leaves the EM scope? Sure. I think so. But it will take some more study and eventually some collaborative work between the ACS and ACEP to make that change.
 
If mom needs some more preload, that can can be accomplished with fluid and lateral positioning.

If the mom is dying fluids aren't going to do much good. Presumably in these situations we are describing, lateral positioning would have been done already.
 
I guess my point which I conveyed poorly is I don't see a role for an ER physican performing ED thoracotomy. If a surgeon isn't available, what's the point, and if a surgeon is available, they should be the one doing it (If anyone should do it is debatable).

I'm at a penetrating trauma-heavy center where thoracotomy is not common but, especially during the summer, happens enough (or too much, depending on your perspective). We have so much trauma that often the surgeons are not present for all trauma codes until 10+ minutes in...these are the times when the ED opens the chest.

These are rare cases (the great majority of all thoracotomies are performed by trauma surgery), but once or twice a year it is the ED resident, as trauma is not there yet (in OR, or whatever) or the indication is questionable (that is, an educational thoracotomy...and that's an entire different coverstation).

All I am saying is that, there are indeed reasons for EM to do thoracotomies...it's worth it for the small wound to the ventricle with trauma on their way...

HH
 
Some evidence to say that PM cesarean helps mom too. But overall I agree with your point about thoracotomies...

I would love to see this "evidence" (seriously please direct me to it) because when you're talking about a procedure that many ED docs never see in their entire careers I don't see how evidence can be very good.

The parallel with ED thoracotomy is not a good one except in that both are oh sh** moments for most ER docs. Resuscitative thoractomy is a procedure that seeks immediately to find and correct the exact reason the patient arrested. Saying that getting the baby out is going to improve maternal circulation is a totally different situation. In the case of PMCS the mom has presumably arrested from something else that you are probably not actively fixing while you are doing your first ever laparotomy.

Getting the baby out may up her afterload but that's really not what you need to achieve and maintain ROSC, you need pump function. Hell, taking a patient in PEA and just cutting their leg off and ligating the femoral artery will up their afterload - same idea right?
 
I question if we should be doing this procedure.

Someone mentioned that in a study ALL of the fetuses delivered in this way had severe neurologic problems and none lived until beyond early childhood.

If that is indeed the normal outcome, then I would consider it unethical.
 
When I was still working as a Medic we had perimortem c-sections in our standing orders, however this is one of the handful of skills that the DOT says a paramedic is not allowed to perform.
 
Someone mentioned that in a study ALL of the fetuses delivered in this way had severe neurologic problems and none lived until beyond early childhood.

That's not correct. There are a number of reports of good outcomes in both the mother and baby.

Two cases where both mother and child survived:
http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/103/3/406.long

Section done 30 min post maternal death, child neurologically intact at age 4:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18166293

Review, two cases discussed, one survivor:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8597917

Review including 38 cases, with 34 surviving infants and 13 surviving mothers:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15970850

Review from 1986 of 61 surviving infants, 56 of which were neurologically normal:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3528956
 
I was posting some studies from work (including some of which you've posted above), but SDN times out, and my boss came in to relieve me, so I didn't get to complete it.

However, in residency, the slant was definitely against it. I don't know where they got their data, but they did.
 
I'm glad the studies show a reasonable chance of neurologic recovery.

I would seriously question the usefulness of this procedure if all the babies ended up seriously impaired and/or died later on.
 
Seen a' couple in the ED but they were more for practice as the pt was actually outside the window for successful resuc. OB there and actually performed the procedure.

IMO, If done, better done in the field by EMS. If EMS waits until in ED arrival, it's too late.

I'm not opposed to the procedure if the right circumstances arise... I live by "whadya have to lose" but I've been called a cowboy before.

RAGE

The NJ case happened when I was a paramedic student. If I remember correctly, the paramedics lost their cards, and the physician who walked them through the procedure was told not to do it again.
 
I'm glad the studies show a reasonable chance of neurologic recovery.

I would seriously question the usefulness of this procedure if all the babies ended up seriously impaired and/or died later on.

Like intubating preterm infants and admitting then to the NICU?
 
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