Perineal Pain Case- Need Help

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Pacman27

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I have a 69 y/o male non crazy legit patient. He had a colonscopy about 3 years ago and since then he has had severe pain in his perineal region on the right greater then the left. The pain is sharp and electrical light. Its between his anus and testicles. No association with bowel movements. The pain is worse with with sitting and reclining and especially when his testicles are hanging when he sits. No pain with walking. On occasion he will get itching sensation as well.

He did see another pain doc and that doc appeared to do some epidural injections with minimal relief and then offered him stim

He denied the stim and saw a surgeon who diagnosed him with a fissure and he had some surgery with that. That did give him some relief but short lived

On exam no alloydynia in the area and no signs of any rash. No testicular pain

I put him on Gabapentin for now. He has tried multiple opioids by other providers with poor results and can not tolerate them


I am thinking pudendal nerve block

Any other thoughts

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Have one similar. Elderly male. Partial relief with nerve block, but great relief with ganglion impar block that has lasted months. It was life changing for him. He's actually coming in today for repeat. 75% relief for 4-5 months. Pudendal neuralgia. Not on any opiates; just gaba.
 
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Second the ganglion impar block. Worth a shot.
 
Have one similar. Elderly male. Partial relief with nerve block, but great relief with ganglion impar block that has lasted months. It was life changing for him. He's actually coming in today for repeat. 75% relief for 4-5 months. Pudendal neuralgia. Not on any opiates; just gaba.


Have not done one of these since fellowship. Tech seems straightforward. What are you injecting

Thanks
 
Aren't your testicles always hanging when you sit? Do you mean if he is sitting outside on a hot day in a lawn chair with no underwear? That sounds painful - mostly for everyone else around

Agreed that it's likely pudendal neuralgia. You have to press right on the taint and see if it reproduces pain. If it's pudendal neuralgia, ganglion impar block shouldn't work. It might, but it shouldn't. The guy needs a pudendal nerve block. Ligament is good with these butt/penis pain cases.
 
A....If it's pudendal neuralgia, ganglion impar block shouldn't work. It might, but it shouldn't. The guy needs a pudendal nerve block.

Agree with pudendal nerve block 1st, but why wouldn't a ganglion of impar block not work?
 

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Agree with pudendal nerve block 1st, but why wouldn't a ganglion of impar block not work?

why? because of anatomy. pudendal nerve does not go thru or originate at ganlion impar. it is somatic, not sympathetic. maybe you get some medication close to it with an impar block, but blocking the pudendal nerve is what you really want to do. unfortunately, not many of us do this injection a lot, yet we all can do impar blocks. again, if ligament says otherwise, ill just STFU
 
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why? because of anatomy. pudendal nerve does not go thru or originate at ganlion impar. it is somatic, not sympathetic. maybe you get some medication close to it with an impar block, but blocking the pudendal nerve is what you really want to do. unfortunately, not many of us do this injection a lot, yet we all can do impar blocks. again, if ligament says otherwise, ill just STFU

In the article referenced above, you opine that efficacy was due only to medication spreading close to region of the pundendal nerves?

The pudendal nerve modulates sympathetic neurons as well as contain sympathetic fibers (see articles below). Are we seeing over stimulation of sympathetic pathways secondary to pudendal neuropathy? Then it would seem that blocking components of the sympathetic neurons in the pelvic cavity may be of benefit in some.

Additionally, it has been shown that trauma to the vasa nervorum can lead to micro-infliammation promoting nerve sprouting. Don't forget that the nervous system is plexus.

As far as blocking the pudendal nerve....fairly straight forward with fluoroscopy.

Colorectal Dis. 2013 Nov;15(11):1410-5. doi: 10.1111/codi.12368.
Prolonged pudendal nerve terminal motor latency is associated with decreased resting and squeeze pressures in the intact anal sphincter.
Loganathan A1, Schloithe AC, Hakendorf P, Liyanage CM, Costa M, Wattchow D.
Author information
Abstract

AIM:
To determine the contribution of the pudendal nerve to the anal continence mechanism by determining the correlation between pudendal nerve terminal motor latency (PNTML) and resting and squeeze anal canal pressures.

METHOD:
In all, 1051 patients were investigated with anorectal physiology studies between January 1998 and July 2010. Of these, 213 patients had intact anal sphincters on endoanal ultrasound and had undergone PNTML testing and anal manometry with measurement of resting and squeeze pressures. The relationship between PNTML and mean resting and squeeze pressures was compared in these patients with an intact anal sphincter. Values were compared using a two-sample t test with equal variances. A P value of < 0.05 was considered significant.

RESULTS:
Of these patients 40.8% had normal PNTML bilaterally, 9.9% had slow PNTML bilaterally and 21.6% had a unilateral slow PNTML. Mean resting pressure was significantly reduced in patients with unilateral slow and bilateral slow PNTML compared with normal. The magnitude of the reduction was 28% and 19% respectively. Mean squeeze pressure was significantly reduced in patients with unilateral slow and bilateral slow PNTML compared with normal. The magnitude of the reduction was 18% and 23% respectively.

CONCLUSION:
In patients with an intact anal sphincter, either unilaterally or bilaterally prolonged PNTMLs are associated with significantly decreased resting and squeeze pressures. Our results suggest that both internal and external sphincter function is impaired with pudendal nerve injury. The inhibition of internal sphincter function may be due to damage of autonomic, principally sympathetic fibres carried in the pudendal nerve.

Neurourol Urodyn. 2003;22(6):597-601.
Afferent fibers of the pudendal nerve modulate sympathetic neurons controlling the bladder neck.
Reitz A1, Schmid DM, Curt A, Knapp PA, Schurch B.
Author information
Abstract

AIMS:
Pudendal nerve stimulation is known to have a potential modulative effect on bladder function. However, even if its efficiency has been established for various neurogenic and non-neurogenic bladder dysfunctions, the underlying neuronal mechanism, and the involved pathways in humans remain unknown. In this prospective study we focused on the effects of pudendal nerve stimulation in complete spinal cord injured patients to identify neuromodulative processes that occur on spinal level.

METHODS:
Twenty complete spinal male presenting with upper motor neuron lesion and neurogenic incontinence underwent pudendal nerve stimulation. Bladder, bladder neck (BN), and external urethral sphincter (EUS) pressures were continuously recorded with a three channel microtip pressure transducer catheter. Fifty six pudendal stimulations using biphasic rectangular impulses (0.2 ms, 10 Hz) with intensities up to 100 mA were applied to the dorsal penile nerve. In six patients, 18 stimulations were repeated after intravenous (i.v.) administration of 7 mg phentolamine.

RESULTS:
Mean BN and EUS pressure increased during stimulation significantly (P < 0.001). The latencies to the EUS responses range between 27 and 41 ms and those to the BN responses between 188 and 412 ms. Phentolamine decreased initial BN pressure and reduced the pressure rise during stimulation significantly (P < 0.05).

CONCLUSIONS:
Pudendal nerve stimulation evoked somatic responses in the EUS and autonomic responses in the smooth muscle sphincter controlling the BN. Longer latencies of the BN responses and the sensitivity to the alpha-blocking agent phentolamine suggest that sympathetic alpha-adrenergic fibers are involved. Somatic afferent fibers of the pudendal nerve are supposed to project on sympathetic thoracolumbar neurons to the BN and modulate their function. This neuromodulative effect works exclusively at the spinal level and appears to be at least partly responsible for BN competence and at least continence.
 
pudendal neuralgia is due to compression of the pudendal nerve. you wouldnt do a stellate ganglion block for carpal tunnel styndrome. why would you do a ganglion impar block for pudendal neuralgia?

yeah, maybe there is some "sympathetic overstimulation". maybe. seems like quite an indirect treatment
 
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"Ligament is good with these butt/penis pain cases." What a claim to fame. Stay thirsty, my friend.

With my patient population, I usually gag and breath hold doing caudals. A pudendal is unimaginable.

Any luck with topicals? Skin is thin down there. Maybe a compounded NSAID/LA/ (magic sauce of choice - TCA, AED, ketamine, etc).

My general surgeons like topical calcium channel blockers for proctalgia fugax (painful anal spasticity), helps to relax the sphincter. I'm not going to tell you what the ortho guys use it for...
 
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Whats your approach for the Pud Nerve Block with fluoroscopy

In the article referenced above, you opine that efficacy was due only to medication spreading close to region of the pundendal nerves?

The pudendal nerve modulates sympathetic neurons as well as contain sympathetic fibers (see articles below). Are we seeing over stimulation of sympathetic pathways secondary to pudendal neuropathy? Then it would seem that blocking components of the sympathetic neurons in the pelvic cavity may be of benefit in some.

Additionally, it has been shown that trauma to the vasa nervorum can lead to micro-infliammation promoting nerve sprouting. Don't forget that the nervous system is plexus.

As far as blocking the pudendal nerve....fairly straight forward with fluoroscopy.

Colorectal Dis. 2013 Nov;15(11):1410-5. doi: 10.1111/codi.12368.
Prolonged pudendal nerve terminal motor latency is associated with decreased resting and squeeze pressures in the intact anal sphincter.
Loganathan A1, Schloithe AC, Hakendorf P, Liyanage CM, Costa M, Wattchow D.
Author information
Abstract

AIM:
To determine the contribution of the pudendal nerve to the anal continence mechanism by determining the correlation between pudendal nerve terminal motor latency (PNTML) and resting and squeeze anal canal pressures.

METHOD:
In all, 1051 patients were investigated with anorectal physiology studies between January 1998 and July 2010. Of these, 213 patients had intact anal sphincters on endoanal ultrasound and had undergone PNTML testing and anal manometry with measurement of resting and squeeze pressures. The relationship between PNTML and mean resting and squeeze pressures was compared in these patients with an intact anal sphincter. Values were compared using a two-sample t test with equal variances. A P value of < 0.05 was considered significant.

RESULTS:
Of these patients 40.8% had normal PNTML bilaterally, 9.9% had slow PNTML bilaterally and 21.6% had a unilateral slow PNTML. Mean resting pressure was significantly reduced in patients with unilateral slow and bilateral slow PNTML compared with normal. The magnitude of the reduction was 28% and 19% respectively. Mean squeeze pressure was significantly reduced in patients with unilateral slow and bilateral slow PNTML compared with normal. The magnitude of the reduction was 18% and 23% respectively.

CONCLUSION:
In patients with an intact anal sphincter, either unilaterally or bilaterally prolonged PNTMLs are associated with significantly decreased resting and squeeze pressures. Our results suggest that both internal and external sphincter function is impaired with pudendal nerve injury. The inhibition of internal sphincter function may be due to damage of autonomic, principally sympathetic fibres carried in the pudendal nerve.

Neurourol Urodyn. 2003;22(6):597-601.
Afferent fibers of the pudendal nerve modulate sympathetic neurons controlling the bladder neck.
Reitz A1, Schmid DM, Curt A, Knapp PA, Schurch B.
Author information
Abstract

AIMS:
Pudendal nerve stimulation is known to have a potential modulative effect on bladder function. However, even if its efficiency has been established for various neurogenic and non-neurogenic bladder dysfunctions, the underlying neuronal mechanism, and the involved pathways in humans remain unknown. In this prospective study we focused on the effects of pudendal nerve stimulation in complete spinal cord injured patients to identify neuromodulative processes that occur on spinal level.

METHODS:
Twenty complete spinal male presenting with upper motor neuron lesion and neurogenic incontinence underwent pudendal nerve stimulation. Bladder, bladder neck (BN), and external urethral sphincter (EUS) pressures were continuously recorded with a three channel microtip pressure transducer catheter. Fifty six pudendal stimulations using biphasic rectangular impulses (0.2 ms, 10 Hz) with intensities up to 100 mA were applied to the dorsal penile nerve. In six patients, 18 stimulations were repeated after intravenous (i.v.) administration of 7 mg phentolamine.

RESULTS:
Mean BN and EUS pressure increased during stimulation significantly (P < 0.001). The latencies to the EUS responses range between 27 and 41 ms and those to the BN responses between 188 and 412 ms. Phentolamine decreased initial BN pressure and reduced the pressure rise during stimulation significantly (P < 0.05).

CONCLUSIONS:
Pudendal nerve stimulation evoked somatic responses in the EUS and autonomic responses in the smooth muscle sphincter controlling the BN. Longer latencies of the BN responses and the sensitivity to the alpha-blocking agent phentolamine suggest that sympathetic alpha-adrenergic fibers are involved. Somatic afferent fibers of the pudendal nerve are supposed to project on sympathetic thoracolumbar neurons to the BN and modulate their function. This neuromodulative effect works exclusively at the spinal level and appears to be at least partly responsible for BN competence and at least continence.
 
kegels... that's my new thing these days, for patients and myself. I do them in b/w cases. I'm getting pretty good control of my pelvic floor
 
SSdoc33, thanks for the vote of confidence but I assure you it is unfounded.

Agree this sounds like pudendal neuralgia. Do a pudendal nerve block or two to figure it out. Consider pudendal MR neurogram if you feel the need.

I have done a lot of impar blocks on people with recalcitrant pudendal neuralgia (as confirmed by pudendal blocks) , and unfortunately impar blocks rarely help with the pudendal pain. Not to say they never help, but it is rare.

In men pudendal neuralgia seems more common in the scrotum and glans penis. In women it appears to be vulva and perianal region. Best of luck! feel free to PM me if you have any questions...
 
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