perio competitiveness

[DIRTIE]

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One of my buddies here at school thinks he wants to go to graduate periodontics. He doesn't use this website, so I thought I would ask for him. Is it tough to get into perio. What should he look at in a program? What programs are really reputable and which programs are better to be avoided? What class rank and NDBE part 1 do they want you to get, etc? He basically wants to hear anything and everything about perio and the progrmans and experiences of current and past residents. Any input would be helpful.
Thanks

 

[12YearOldKid]

Pulse: Check
DDS/DMD: Check

Admission granted.

 

[12YearOldKid]

😀

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

One of my buddies here at school thinks he wants to go to graduate periodontics. He doesn't use this website, so I thought I would ask for him. Is it tough to get into perio. What should he look at in a program? What programs are really reputable and which programs are better to be avoided? What class rank and NDBE part 1 do they want you to get, etc? He basically wants to hear anything and everything about perio and the progrmans and experiences of current and past residents. Any input would be helpful.
Thanks

I've heard from several people that San Antonio is a strong perio program, but I think you have to have more than a pulse there...

 

[toofache32]

I've heard from several people that San Antonio is a strong perio program, but I think you have to have more than a pulse there...

....a hairy back?

 

[losingfaith27]

isn't this an OXYMORON??

Seriously, San Antonio is da bomb so I've heard. Seattle historically was great, but so was Boston. I think Seattle has staying power, but I've heard Boston these days is very weak. Boston only has foreign grads in it's program and that says something....no US student is stupid enough to shell out that kind of money to have a 4 by 6 cublicle with the blind leading the blind. The director is actually a good guy, but his program is beat. The first year there you don't do any clinical patient care, but you get to do research that's assigned to you. Basically, there are a bunch of research projects going on and you'll randomly get one of them and take it like a man.

 

[leafhound16]

It's great (for me) to hear that perio isn't as cut-throat to get into as other programs, but of course, no one wants to go to a weak perio school either.

I'm applying to perio school in the summer, does anyone have any comments on some strong (clinically) perio programs to apply to? I've heard from my faculty that seattle, nova, missouri kansas city, mayo clinic, and tufts were really strong programs... and that harvard is stronger these days than it was previously. the strength of perio programs really depends on the program director, and as turnover occurs, programs that were traditionally strong could falter, and vice versa. anyone have any comments on specific schools?

p.s. does anyone know about how good tennessee's perio program is?

 

[toofache32]

....p.s. does anyone know about how good tennessee's perio program is?

Stay away from there unless it's the only place to fulfull your dream. I went to dental school there. While there are a few great faculty, they are much overshadowed by the piss-ants that you spend most of your time with. They bring new meaning to the term "malignant." As for Dr. P...I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire. He better hope we never meet in a dark alley. But that's just my observation.

 

[rocknightmare]

Stay away from there unless it's the only place to fulfull your dream. I went to dental school there. While there are a few great faculty, they are much overshadowed by the piss-ants that you spend most of your time with. They bring new meaning to the term "malignant." As for Dr. P...I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire. He better hope we never meet in a dark alley. But that's just my observation.

lol those are some interesting comments.. he def made you an os?

 

[gary_ruska]

It's great (for me) to hear that perio isn't as cut-throat to get into as other programs, but of course, no one wants to go to a weak perio school either.

I'm applying to perio school in the summer, does anyone have any comments on some strong (clinically) perio programs to apply to? I've heard from my faculty that seattle, nova, missouri kansas city, mayo clinic, and tufts were really strong programs... and that harvard is stronger these days than it was previously. the strength of perio programs really depends on the program director, and as turnover occurs, programs that were traditionally strong could falter, and vice versa. anyone have any comments on specific schools?

p.s. does anyone know about how good tennessee's perio program is?

Gary Ruska has a buddy at Harvard perio...the program is similar to BU's. There is a heavy emphasis on research and the perio program isn't strong at all clinically - i.e. they get pushed around by the other departments and are generally considered a joke (they're called periodentists by the prosth and endo guys). They recently lost a faculty member to Penn and the remaining full-timers aren't really good. Also, the new director of Pros there is pushing to have the pros residents place their own implants.

There are a lot of foreign grads at that program - at least 33%. Apparently last year they had 10 applications for 3 spots.

 

[leafhound16]

hmm! are you referring to the undergrad school in general or specifically to the perio program @ Tennessee?? Inquiring minds want to know...

Stay away from there unless it's the only place to fulfull your dream. I went to dental school there. While there are a few great faculty, they are much overshadowed by the piss-ants that you spend most of your time with. They bring new meaning to the term "malignant." As for Dr. P...I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire. He better hope we never meet in a dark alley. But that's just my observation.

 

[Periogod]

One of my buddies here at school thinks he wants to go to graduate periodontics. He doesn't use this website, so I thought I would ask for him. Is it tough to get into perio. What should he look at in a program? What programs are really reputable and which programs are better to be avoided? What class rank and NDBE part 1 do they want you to get, etc? He basically wants to hear anything and everything about perio and the progrmans and experiences of current and past residents. Any input would be helpful.
Thanks

If you want to get in to a good perio program I would recommend a 90 on Part I and a healthy class rank. If you have these and you aren't a complete **** in the interview, then there is a good chance you will get in where you want to go. It should also be noted that some programs require the GRE but I don't exactly know how much weight this has on your acceptance.

 

[DIRTIE]

So are perio programs 3 years because you spend so much of your time as the universities little research slave?
Doess anybody know about Oklahoma, Oregon, Iowa, and Nebraska's programs.
I believe my classmate is looking for a strong clinical program, not as much research and teaching experience, butmore geared toward private practice.

 

[InMyCrossHairs]

Are you really that embarassed about the profession of perio to say that you are inquiring for a friend, get real man. Just suck it up, and admit that you are the one who is truly looking for this information.

 

[DIRTIE]

Are you really that embarassed about the profession of perio to say that you are inquiring for a friend, get real man. Just suck it up, and admit that you are the one who is truly looking for this information.

You are an ass!! I am really asking for a friend, is there something wrong with that. What is there to be embarrassed about perio anyways. Why don't you do everybody a favor and keep your rude and ignorant remarks to yourself.

 

[ktcook83]

One of my buddies here at school thinks he wants to go to graduate periodontics. He doesn't use this website, so I thought I would ask for him. Is it tough to get into perio. What should he look at in a program? What programs are really reputable and which programs are better to be avoided? What class rank and NDBE part 1 do they want you to get, etc? He basically wants to hear anything and everything about perio and the progrmans and experiences of current and past residents. Any input would be helpful.
Thanks

Post this question in the grad forum and you might get better feedback.

 

[UTDental]

hmm! are you referring to the undergrad school in general or specifically to the perio program @ Tennessee?? Inquiring minds want to know...

I currently go to school there and almost applied to the Perio program (after hearing too many bad things about the future of the specialty, I decided to hold off). I attended a CE course hosted by the Grad Perio program here that should have been entitled "Perio's identity crisis and lack of drawing quality applicants". They talked about how Perio needs to expand it's scope in order to attract better applicants (one speaker at the event is the current AAP pres- he was emphasizing Wilcodontics and getting Perio to move into the realm of Ortho). Anyway, after that meeting and speaking with perio residents and practicing periodontists, I decided to hold off. Not to scare you off or anything- just do your due diligence on the specialty. Some perios are doing very well in private practice right now- but from what I hear it's the hardest specialty to get those referrals rolling in.
OK, back the the UTenn program. The director of the Grad program just left this year for Houston. He was a great guy. The replacement is someone I wouldn't endorse. The undergrad perio programs sucks major ass and some of that program will undoubtedly overlap with the grad program. There are some outstanding residents currently in the program and some I believe are clinically ******ed. Undergrads don't like dealing with the Grad dept because once you send a patient there, you tend never to see them again. The program will allow you to place up towards 100 implants before you graduate. They work with the Prosth program too on some complex cases as well. I would say the program is a great program clinically. I think research is a requirement but not that emphasized. When I was thinking about applying there, some of the residents told me that my stats were good enough that I should apply to UT- San Antonio. Apparantly, UT- San Antonio is the Mecca of Perio. I hope this answers your question.

 

[toofache32]

...Apparantly, UT- San Antonio is the Mecca of Perio. I hope this answers your question.

I heard this also. And LSU.

 

[CrispRice]

For what it's worth, my gf was considering perio and ran into exactly the same issues. Every periodontist that she spoke with said that, if they had to choose again, they wouldn't pursue perio. The reasons were the same as provided above - one even went so far as to say that he felt gyped by the specialty - that the reality was very different than what was preached to him when he was a dental student/resident. He said that he also felt a little embarassed about perio expanding "beyond it's reach" and into things like OMFS, ortho, and even endo (root surgery, etc.)...

Bottom line, do it if you love it - but, as most general dentists will tell you, the worst thing perio has done is to stop doing routine perio tx (ScRP, etc.). It seems to me that every periodontist I meet can't wait to extract teeth and put implants in...Believe me, that aggressive attitude gets back to GPs in a big way.

Personally, I wouldn't do it - my girlfriend decided that she was happy as a GP and spent the money she would have spent on a perio residency instead on CE courses for implantology.

Perio tends to attract some bright students, but, in my experience, the weakest specialty applicants are in perio.

 

[toofache32]

The thing I can't get over is how the only sure treatment for periodontitis is a #150 forceps, but they still keep scraping away.

 

[biologic_width]

Hi,
I am currently a perio resident in the Northeast. I don't know much about the Southern programs, but can give you my perspective on programs in the Northeast and West Coast, since that's where I applied. PM me if you want details.

Should you go into perio? Overall, I hate to say it, but I would be very hesitant to choose perio again, if I had the choice. My program is three years in duration, the first of which is dedicated to research, with very little clinical activity. Yes, we do place implants and perform significant amounts of osseous, grafting, etc., but the bottom line is that the success of our treatment has very little to do with us. I've seen patient after patient for whom I have made significant efforts to bring them to periodontal health, who come back and look lousy because a) they don't floss/brush, b) they smoke, c) they don't understand periodontal disease because it is, for the most part, painless. This is what you will struggle with as a periodontist.

I've also come to notice that the other specialties tend to look down on perio - we often have issues with the prosthodontists because they feel they should be guiding the treatment plan but oftentimes don't understand the basics of the periodontal health.

I am about to finish my program and have been looking for jobs. While there are some descent practices out there, most practices I've seen have been hurting for referrals. Don't get me wrong, they were still making good money, but the clinicians told me that I'd have to really market myself to GPs as providing what they called "Perio Plus" - the basic perio stuff, but a lot of procedures that are generally considered OMFS territory, and certainly procedures I wasn't exposed to in residency.

As for the future of perio - I wish I could be a bit more optimistic. I have certainly enjoyed my training insofar as education goes, but I can't help but feel that perio will always have an identity crisis as a specialty. You can definitely make a good living as a periodontist, but for the time and effort required, as well as the constant struggles to define yourself to GPs, I'd do something else - ortho if you want a great lifestyle, endo if you want to do some surgery and a great lifestyle, and OMFS if you want to do the big stuff.

 

[gary_ruska]

Yeah, what they said.

Also - it's official: Periodontists are NOT surgeons:

http://www.facs.org/medicalstudents/answer1.html

 

[toofache32]

Here's how to sum up Perio:

If the treatment worked, then you're a helluva periodentist.
If the treatment didn't work, then the patient didn't have good home care.

 

[DoctorH]

interesting thread. From my experince at work, we have a periodontist who works for us in the morning, and go somewhere else in the afternoon. Basically what he does, he gets 50% of collection from the procdures he does, and he told me it works for him better that way, no need to worry about referal and we have alot of patients in our office, many of whom need SC/RP. Now I would say more than 95% of the time he does non surgical sc/rp. The only Surgery he does is crown lengthening, which I would say in our office is not as much. He seems to be happy that way going between differnt GP office and doing his work. He said in a good month he would make around $15,000 production just doing SC/RP. I think Perio is one of those specialities where you get taught state of the art clinical and research in dental school but in real life you have to be mentally ready that your scope of work will be mainly sc/rp. I think location is also important. Chances are of you have an office in a middle to lower middle class you will have a lot of perio cases. I personally have respect to all specalist, but I feel that Periodontists have been struggling lately in Advertising their specacilty, and entering competition with OS, Protho, and even some GP when it comes to Implants.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

... I've heard from my faculty that seattle, nova, missouri kansas city, mayo clinic, and tufts were really strong programs...

I do not believe what I am reading. Someone at UFCD actually said Nova is good! When I did my research at UFCD, Nova was bashed whenever it was mentioned. I guess they finally accepted their sister school.

 

[Yah-E]

I do not believe what I am reading. Someone at UFCD actually said Nova is good! When I did my research at UFCD, Nova was bashed whenever it was mentioned. I guess they finally accepted their sister school.

NSUCDM does have a strong Perio program. Endo, Ortho and Perio are the most prominent post-doctoral programs at NSUCDM, OMFS, Prostho, and Pedo are more inferior. Perio gets all the implants, OMFS doesn't even compare. NSUCDM Perio Department Chair is a very influencial figure at the school where everyone is either scared of him, hates him, or has high respect for him.

Perio is so strong at NSUCDM here that pre-doc has 6 semesters worth of Perio lectures and crap load of Perio clinical graduation requirements!

 

[Periogod]

Any specialty is what you make of it. Pick the specialty that interests you and don't worry about the money, there is plenty of it out there. I used to have an OMFS faculty in dental school that complained about money, there are Orthodontists that complain about how OEC is going to ruin their profession, and there are people that say implants will be the end of Endodontics. There are always going to be people out there that complain about their profession no matter how good it is going. I chose a residency in Periodontics and have absolutely no regrets. Its true that I probably could have specialized in something else but, the fact is, I am happy doing implants, mucogingival surgery, and grafting procedures. As for which school to pick, do a little research of your own on the different programs and find one that is suited to your needs.

Things to look for in a program: clinical vs. research based, clinic time, procedures performed, faculty-to-resident ratio, access to patients, and, something important to me, how well does the program prepare its students for board certification?

 

[12YearOldKid]

Perio is so strong at NSUCDM here that pre-doc has 6 semesters worth of Perio lectures and crap load of Perio clinical graduation requirements!

Same thing here. Six semesters of perio. Basically, it's the same course repeated six times by different faculty. 😀

And TONS of perio requirements here too -- you can't get out of this school until you have worn your gracey curettes down to the hub. Honestly, I think perio in private practice could be pretty cool, but so many people are turned off by the specialty because in dental school it seems like perio is just hygiene with flaps and sutures.

 

[ISTOPDK]

Any specialty is what you make of it. Pick the specialty that interests you and don't worry about the money, there is plenty of it out there. I used to have an OMFS faculty in dental school that complained about money, there are Orthodontists that complain about how OEC is going to ruin their profession, and there are people that say implants will be the end of Endodontics. There are always going to be people out there that complain about their profession no matter how good it is going. I chose a residency in Periodontics and have absolutely no regrets. Its true that I probably could have specialized in something else but, the fact is, I am happy doing implants, mucogingival surgery, and grafting procedures. As for which school to pick, do a little research of your own on the different programs and find one that is suited to your needs.

Things to look for in a program: clinical vs. research based, clinic time, procedures performed, faculty-to-resident ratio, access to patients, and, something important to me, how well does the program prepare its students for board certification?

To which program do you belong? Where else did you apply and why, and are you happy with your program or would you rather be somewhere else?

 

[Periogod]

To which program do you belong? Where else did you apply and why, and are you happy with your program or would you rather be somewhere else?

UTHSC-SA. I applied to a couple of different programs (I don't quite see how the names of these would be helpful) and, if you had read my post, you would see that I am very happy right where I am.

 

[adamlc18]

UTHSC-SA. I applied to a couple of different programs (I don't quite see how the names of these would be helpful) and, if you had read my post, you would see that I am very happy right where I am.

Did you go to UNC? ONe of my classmates has a brother at UTSC-SA for perio.

 

[Periogod]

Did you go to UNC? ONe of my classmates has a brother at UTSC-SA for perio.

Nope but I know of whom you speak.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

Nope but I know of whom you speak.

How did that come up in the pillow-talk?

 

[backaction]

This is info coming from two different full-time perio professors:

1.-Perio will slowly fade. Clinically, the procedures will be split between GPs and OMFS (GPs will take much of the implant portion and Surgery will do the grafting). This will have little consequence on people who are starting residencies now and won't really happen during these peoples working lifetime. For those applying now, the specialty has staying power and making money will not be a problem. In 25 years things will not be the same.

2.-Another professor says that although there is a large spike of GPs doing implants now and even more in the immediate future, that this trend will change and in several years GPs will be placing less and less. The reasons behind this are many. One major reason stated was that GPs will not know how to manage failures and many surgeons are not really trained in GTR, so they won't be involved in many of the types of cases that many people can benefit from. Also, the marketing of implants will change away from the GP (don't know what that meant?).
---------------------------------

My 2 cents: If you truly enjoy performing gum surgery and placing implants then do it, the money can't be that bad either. For some taking a bunch of CE courses might be the way to go. For others a 3 year residency may be more appealing. As previously stated there are always those who don't like their job no matter what it is. There is never 100% satisfaction in any profession. Do your research and make an informed decision.

 

[Periogod]

Perio will slowly fade. Clinically, the procedures will be split between GPs and OMFS (GPs will take much of the implant portion and Surgery will do the grafting).

I just wanted to ask the OMFS residents out there, "How many of you are jumping at the opportunity to take over the perio surgery portion of my specialty (bone grafting around teeth, open flap debridement, crown lengthening, etc..)?" 👍 👎 People are always going to have periodontal disease, there will always be people with disease who want to keep their teeth, and there will always be an need for a specialty that caters to these patients (GPs and OMFSs don't like these types of surgeries). That was why the different specialties formed in the first place. It is asinine to believe anything else.

PS-My belief is that more GPs placing implants can only benefit Periodontics and Oral Surgery. The more experience they have with implants leads to an increase in their usage and a concomitant increase in referral of more difficult cases.