Peronality Types (Disorders) in Breaking Bad

[clusterF]

So I'm watching Breaking Bad again, I haven't watched the last half of season 5 yet but I decided to start from season 1. Anyways, I was looking at it and it seems that some of these characters have pretty good personality disorders. This is such an awesome show, I was surprised nobody has discussed this on the psychiatry forum before (at least I couldn't find it). So if other guys are willing to profile some characters, lets start with WW?

Walter White: Narcissistic Personality Disorder: His grandiosity/entitlement and need for admiration is so bad that he shoots himself in the foot multiple times. He exploits jesse and others on various occasions but the part I love is how Gus brilliantly (coldy/viciously etc) manipulates Walter's world view to suit his own needs. He is easily injured and reacts erratically, rejecting help when it doesn't align with his view of the world.

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[birchswing]

The only flaw I see is that he does have empathy for his family. He's deluded into thinking he's helping his family—I'll give you that. But he does care about them; he certainly differentiates his treatment of them versus people who are antagonistic toward his business. There are times he is indifferent to killing and doing "what has to be done," but he would also fight to protect his family. In that way, he just seems more evil, like someone in the mob who would think nothing of killing an enemy but would protect his own family.

I found the character transformation in the show to be so rapid that it was a bit incomprehensible. You're supposed to believe he was this buttoned-up, mild-mannered school teacher as the show begins, but there is that quotation by Hemingway from The Sun Also Rises that helps make it make more sense, "'How did you go bankrupt?' Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.'" To me, that sums up Breaking Bad, except the bankruptcy is of his decency. We just don't see the gradual part. At least it didn't seem terribly gradual to me.

 

[Asklepian]

LIJ vs MUSC , with the goal of becoming an academic psychiatrist, who wins?

So I'm watching Breaking Bad again, I haven't watched the last half of season 5 yet but I decided to start from season 1. Anyways, I was looking at it and it seems that some of these characters have pretty good personality disorders. This is such an awesome show, I was surprised nobody has discussed this on the psychiatry forum before (at least I couldn't find it). So if other guys are willing to profile some characters, lets start with WW?

Walter White: Narcissistic Personality Disorder: His grandiosity/entitlement and need for admiration is so bad that he shoots himself in the foot multiple times. He exploits jesse and others on various occasions but the part I love is how Gus brilliantly (coldy/viciously etc) manipulates Walter's world view to suit his own needs. He is easily injured and reacts erratically, rejecting help when it doesn't align with his view of the world.

Great thread idea!

Although I definitely can see the Cluster B traits you mention, I would argue that WW does not meet DSM criteria for a personality disorder.
"The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations."
As you will recall, WW initially is introduced to us as a sheepish pushover. It seems that manifestations of this new persona only erupt after his diagnosis. Call C/L. Is this Axis III? 😛

 

[clusterF]

The pervasive aspect of it is a problem but I come bearing solutions:

1) This is TV
2) We don't have full insight into who he was prior, we only have little snippets.

As far as empathy, I think that the case can be made that he cares for his family as "the provider" as opposed to an inherent love. There are numerous examples of how he abandons his family or does things that are not in their best interest, getting his son drunk, missing his daughter's birth, becoming a meth dealer, refusing easy money and the list goes on.

 

[Salpingo]

The only flaw I see is that he does have empathy for his family. He's deluded into thinking he's helping his family—I'll give you that. But he does care about them; he certainly differentiates his treatment of them versus people who are antagonistic toward his business. There are times he is indifferent to killing and doing "what has to be done," but he would also fight to protect his family. In that way, he just seems more evil, like someone in the mob who would think nothing of killing an enemy but would protect his own family.

I think one of the central conceits of the show is that he cares for his family WITHOUT showing them any empathy. He basically treats them as narcissistic objects, reflections of his own worth and achievement. The recurring theme is what is HE going to leave to them, not what they actually want or need.

Also, to add on to Asklepian:
"The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expressions are not better understood as normative for individual's developments stage or sociocultural environment."

The cancer diagnosis abruptly thrusts Walter into a new developmental stage as he now looks back on his life and has to make sense of what he is leaving behind. He's in crisis and fails to resolve it (whereas Jesse seems to develop and mature past his own identity issues). Part of the brilliance of the show is that we really only see Walter in the context of the cancer, and only have brief glimpses of what led up to it. Although there are might be some allusions to his NPD which led to his downfall at Los Alamos and Gray Matter (I don't remember off the top of my head).

 

[Indodo]

So is Jesse a borderline?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

So is Jesse a borderline?

Just an addict with immature coping mechanisms.

 

[birchswing]

As long as we're spitballing, how about Hank as having OCPD?

 

[Indodo]

Hank certainly has the traits although they generally are not impairing.
Gus also has the sociopathy going for him.

Kleptomania in marie.
What do you think of Skyler?

 

[birchswing]

Hank certainly has the traits although they generally are not impairing.
Gus also has the sociopathy going for him.

Kleptomania in marie.
What do you think of Skyler?

Can't think of a personality disorder for her. I think to me she shows how we are all morally relative to our situations, and that we connect more to other people than we do absolute ideas of right and wrong. We tolerate so much more in reality, in our families, than we do claim to in the abstract. She's not a hypocrite per se, but she represents how our inner lives don't match prevailing social mores. She's both weak and strong, weak in not doing what is right, strong in being stoic against the headwinds of what she feels she has to do. She is always acting in what she believes is her and her family's best interest and doesn't take the easiest paths. Bad judgement and a willingness to be evil (though less so than Walt) are her character flaws, but they don't seem like personality disorder behaviors to me.

I have to add the disclaimer that even though I watched every episode of the show, my memory is terrible (probably from benzos). It can be a blessing when it comes to rewatchability, but when sometimes when I talk to other people about shows we've both watched I'm shocked that they remember so much. Especially with Breaking Bad, people will reference specific episodes and to me it's just one big long story in my head that I know generally but I forget the episodic elements. I had completely forgotten about the airplane crash happening in the show until I was reading the Wikipedia article on Breaking Bad last night.

I think with Skyler in particular, my impressions and memories are fairly vague.

 

[nitemagi]

I see few personality disorders on this show. At most you have people decompensating under severe stressors, which [hopefully] we all know should not be used to diagnose PDs.

 

[Indodo]

I see few personality disorders on this show. At most you have people decompensating under severe stressors, which [hopefully] we all know should not be used to diagnose PDs.

Well, Caltech trained chemists who do nobel level work, found billion dollar companies don't often end up working as high school teachers/washing cars or for that part making meth.
But this is not an accurate depiction of life, its an artistic representation called boob toob.

We all know we can't actually diagnose a personality disorder. Just let us have our fun, for the sake of art.
If you want a taste yourself, the first one is free. Cmon, try it. Everyone is doing it.

 

[nitemagi]

Well, Caltech trained chemists who do nobel level work, found billion dollar companies don't often end up working as high school teachers/washing cars or for that part making meth.
But this is not an accurate depiction of life, its an artistic representation called boob toob.

We all know we can't actually diagnose a personality disorder. Just let us have our fun, for the sake of art.
If you want a taste yourself, the first one is free. Cmon, try it. Everyone is doing it.

Been there. http://paulrpurimd.com/is-walter-white-a-psychopath/

 

[Indodo]

Been there. http://paulrpurimd.com/is-walter-white-a-psychopath/

Well, clearly he isn't a psychopath. Although he definitely flies his cluster B flags, the core is all about him.
Walt has Neoplastic Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It's going to be in the DSM-VI.

 

[clusterF]

I could make a case for OCPD in Hank.
Certainly for ASPD in Gus.
Whether Jesse is a borderline or not is a good question. He has some histrionic traits as well but few ASPD or OCPD traits that I remember.

Skyler certainly has some strong traits across the spectrum and if were putting square pegs into round holes, I would call her histrionic with some strong narcissistic traits or the other way around.

It's interesting to notice the prominence of cluster B traits in all these characters. I would imagine this is true of most TV characters.

 

[whopper]

Mike has some signs of psychopathy. The fact that he could kill people and remain absolutely calm. Same with Gus. He gutts what's his name (the Hispanic lackey of his) with a calm face, wow.

Walter had extreme narcissism but it was in the face of an extreme stressor-facing death with his family having no financial foundation.

Skyler had some cluster B traits.

Marie had several cluster B traits, enough IMHO for Histrionic PD.

Saul Goodman-narcissism, antisocial PD-not just traits, he had real antisocial PD.

 

[Indodo]

Really, you think saul was ASPD?
Please share your analysis. For some reason, my memory is that he had a soft side. Maybe I need to crank up some Netflix.

I am looking forward to the new show.

 

[nitemagi]

I think there's a distinction for Saul between antisocial and psychopathy. And furthermore the new show Better Call Saul explores the idea of someone under certain pressures progressively doing more antisocial behaviors, including being desensitized to it over time. This is similar to rationale that many forensic psychiatrists make, which is that malingering doesn't mean ASPD. Under the right circumstances anyone might malinger.

Now Saul is a con man by the time of Breaking Bad, but he still has no stomach for violence.

 

[Shikima]

I think there's a distinction for Saul between antisocial and psychopathy. And furthermore the new show Better Call Saul explores the idea of someone under certain pressures progressively doing more antisocial behaviors, including being desensitized to it over time. This is similar to rationale that many forensic psychiatrists make, which is that malingering doesn't mean ASPD. Under the right circumstances anyone might malinger.

Now Saul is a con man by the time of Breaking Bad, but he still has no stomach for violence.

So you're saying he is an excellent lawyer?

 

[barzan]

Great Thread, I think it would be fun if we had an ongoing thread for different Tv series or movies.

 

[Indodo]

I think there's a distinction for Saul between antisocial and psychopathy. And furthermore the new show Better Call Saul explores the idea of someone under certain pressures progressively doing more antisocial behaviors, including being desensitized to it over time. This is similar to rationale that many forensic psychiatrists make, which is that malingering doesn't mean ASPD. Under the right circumstances anyone might malinger.

Now Saul is a con man by the time of Breaking Bad, but he still has no stomach for violence.

So are you saying psychopath?
@whopper, are you basing your call on the new show or on breaking bad?

I haven't seen the show so please no spoilers (or least big spoiler alert signs).

 

[nitemagi]

I am saying Saul isn't a psychopath. He may have some predatory traits, but not violent and appears situational overall.

 

[nitemagi]

Great Thread, I think it would be fun if we had an ongoing thread for different Tv series or movies.

I did this a while back.

http://nymag.com/arts/tv/fall-2012/tv-character-diagnoses-2012-9/

 

[Indodo]

Great Thread, I think it would be fun if we had an ongoing thread for different Tv series or movies.

Yeah like the binge I am about to go on for House of Cards.
That show has some interesting characters.

Homeland was a good one. Don't have showtime anymore and its not on Netflix or Prime.

 

[Psychobabbling]

The other thing I notice about Walter is: Here's a guy who is pretty mild mannered, intelligent, studious. He marries a woman, has a kid. There is no alluding to difficulties he has had in these primary relationships before he is diagnosed with Lung Cancer. You hear a little bit about how he left that company him and his friend started (if I'm remembering correctly) - but I don't think we have enough information to really make something of that.

So - he gets diagnosed with Lung Cancer. His initial dilemma is "I'm going to die. I need to ensure my family is taken care." So, he focuses on an action, to avoid the anxiety of death. In reaction to this, and in the midst of probably thinking "If I'm dying in a few months, I need to make money fast!" He rationalizes "well, if I make some meth, and my family is set, I am justified in my actions. I don't care what happens to me, I'll be gone, they'll never know, and they'll be okay (bills, college, etc)."

What subsequently takes place is him falling too far down the rabbit hole. How do you reconcile doing "evil" things but being a "good, mild-mannered" person? As this comes more into his awareness, he's also faced with the consequences of going down that rabbit hole to begin with. Somebody dies, somebody is in danger, he gets threatened, his family gets threatened, etc. He does come to realizations at various points of something probably like "how the **** did I get here? Christ, how do I get out of this?"

Eventually, he realizes his initial intent and actions lead to not only a loss of who he truly was, but also to something his family could no longer really love. So at that point, might as well go all in.

It's more sad if you think about it. Unfortunate really. He himself died the moment he was given his diagnosis and he never properly grieved that.

Narcissistic PD? Maybe. Kinda strikes me more as either OCPD at heart, or a Dependent who got tired of turning hostile impulses inwardly. Or no PD at all, just someone who lost their way. Who knows

 

[Indodo]

The thing about it is that his family is eventually "set" and he turns down millions to go into the "empire business." He references gray matter and even in the very beginning, bristles at the idea accepting charity from his old colleague.
The other thing is that because this is not a real person, the character changes over time. He is decidedly more vicious with time. He breaks bad and even becomes more antisocial with time. I don't really see the OCPD although obviously we all have a few traits of everything.

Lydia...now that is a candidate for OCPD. We don't know much about her but she strikes me as the OCPD type, maybe with not as much D.