Personal Finance Consult - Check my Budget

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BudgetEMThrowaway

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Hi all, long time SDN poster using a throwaway. Signed my contract now in my final year of EM residency. Currently getting a budget together, will eventually go to someone professional but trying to get something for now.

Some background info:
Plan on working 25-30 years for what it's worth. Will have 342,000 in student loan debt between myself and spouse at time of graduation at a 10-year fixed 4.375%. We are both thankfully young and healthy. Will be graduating residency with about 75k-100k in cash depending on how much more I moonlight. No kids (yet)

Will be making 300-350k/year as W2 employee, I used 300k for safety. Full good benefits paid by employer with low deductible health insurance. State income tax is ~6.25%

Planned on maxing 401k (18k), doing backdoor roth x2(11k) for myself and spouse for total of 29k pre-tax deduction. So leaves with 271k gross income.

Yearly fixed expenses:
State&Fed Income tax 81883
House 25000-34000 (traditional fixed with P&I, Ins, Taxes)
Utilities 7200
non-medmal insurance 7000
Student Loans 53000
Car payments 4800
Total fixed = ~180,000-189,000/yr

"Variable" Expenses:
Retirement at 18% (subtracting the 29k pre-tax) = 31,000
Food 12000
Gas 8000
Cash Savings 7500
Total variable = 58,500/yr

Left over for everything else = 32,500-23,000

I acknowledge the house will put us behind with respect to more debt, I'm okay with that. Beyond that, does this seem reasonable? I'm not used to seeing any income of 300k so I have no idea if 23-32k leftover after the above is enough. What else should I be looking at for pre-tax deduction? I expect to get some degree of cash back at tax time for itemized deductions particularly with the house but I'm ignoring that intentionally for the time being.

Thanks for reading, be brutally honest :)

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What are you spending 8000 on gas for? Are you driving a tank an hour each way to work? That's 64000 miles a year at 20 mpg with $2.50 gas. Still 48k miles at 15 mpg, that's pretty high, even for you and a working spouse. If your driving that much you might actually be able to justify a Prius commuter, but then again, why are you driving 1000 + miles a week as a physician?

I don't have issue with 30k leftover, in fact, I think you need that much just for your 'rainy day' expenses, i.e. cash savings. Especially with student loan payments of over 4k a month, and a possible 3k mortgage you need a high safety net. A car crash that puts you down for 6 weeks would be a hard road to go with 9k a month fixed (non tax) expenses. After you have about 50k saved up for rainy day (based on 6 months of fixed), I would then go right after your loans. 7k a month of removable debt is something I would like off the balance sheet. I am assuming you have already looked into loan consolidation for a fixed lower rate.

Also pay off your cars, why in the world do you have a $400 a month car payment? That should be gone like the first month after the buffer is built up. Honestly I am not thrilled with paying P and I on the mortgage either. Why not get a nice rental for a year till you get that down payment? Unless your in Manhattan you can surely beat 2-3k a month with a rental.

Technically your budget is 'fine,' but I just don't like the fact that you are leveraging more debt before addressing what you currently have. I get the student loans are huge, but the car should, at least, be gone. And 20% down, even on a 500k house, is not gonna take you that long. Personally I am more down the Dave Ramsey school of thought rather than the Robert Kiyosaki tho. I have watched my father do the 'rich dad' thing for almost 20 years, and yet he's not rich, and still can't retire. He invests in RE in lots of 'good debt' and yet because he doesn't have that paid off, he keeps getting in 'bad debt' the moment his business has a downturn. Debt is a behavioral not a math issue, I am convinced. And when you 'free up your cash' to do other stuff, other stuff tends to waste that money, and then get you in more debt when the first bump hits. Granted you are budgeting, and obviously trying to be responsible, but I think you are setting yourself up to be even more leveraged later at the first misfortune, if you keep putting off the debt. That's my 2 cents.
 
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Thank you for your insights. I should adjust the gas estimate... it's probably closer to 2000-3000 instead of 8k yearly, it's what we are unfortunately spending right now (spouse drives a lot for work but won't be upon my starting attending gig). The student loans at 4.375% is what I could find to re-finance with actual offers from places.

The car payment is interest free and only has like 18 payments left, so I didn't plan on paying that off just for the sake of clearing it off the table.

You make a good point about a safety fund, I will need to address that further, my cash savings clearly isn't enough for that to build up across 4-5 years. Planned on dumping everything left over into student loans to pay it down including tax refunds. My goal isn't to FIRE, more to just live without worry with respect to paying bills. Thanks again
 
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Ouch, that is a lot of debt. Personally, I think it's reasonable for someone making $300K+ annually to gear their budget toward wealth-building. To not do so seems like a waste of an opportunity.

First, there were a couple things about the expenses that made me do a double take.

#1 What is included under "non-medmal insurance?" Would be interested to see an itemized breakdown. You mentioned getting good full benefits from your employer... so $7K annually on insurances (not including medical malpractice) seems high, but it depends on what all you have in there.

#2 $7.5K annual cash savings is listed as an "expense." Don't mean to be too hard on you, but savings should not be accounted for as an expense.

#3 $12K annually on food seems rich for a family of two. I guess if you live in an expensive city and neither of you cook then it might be justified, but otherwise consider clamping down on that somehow. Maybe cut out the alcohol (if applicable; not a popular suggestion I'm sure)? I would think a house of two would be able to eat well spending about half that on food.

#4 I agree with BorntobeDO - the car payment needs to be gone.

The car payment is interest free and only has like 18 payments left, so I didn't plan on paying that off just for the sake of clearing it off the table.

"Clearing the table" would by my #1 priority if I were in your shoes. Only having 18 payments left gives me more of a reason to pay it off ASAP, not less of a reason. I hate payments of all kinds, but car payments are the cystic acne of personal finance (compared to reasonable mortgages, which are more like beauty marks (see Cindy Crawford)). I prefer a blemish-free face, but if you need to have something wrong, a beauty mark is the way to go. I'm going to let you in on a secret I learned from a veteran car salesman... zero percent interest is a gimmick used to sell cars. I know. Shocking, right? It's like tossing a few pennies at the customer to make them feel like they're the winner in the transaction. And some unsolicited advice about buying cars... You may be doing this already, but for anyone else reading perhaps this basic tip will be helpful. Car tip #1: You can save a lot of money by avoiding new cars like the plague... at least until actual wealth is achieved. In the meantime, buy a used car (about 3-4 years old seems to be the sweet spot depreciation-wise) with low miles... and pay with cash. If you can't afford to pay with cash, then you can't afford it. Loans seem harmless, normal, and even safe. Don't be fooled. They're a trap. Why are car loans so bad? Because they allow you to spend more than you have on an item that is proven to lose value over time (i.e. on a liability). Car tip #2: Private sellers are more likely to cave and give in to a lowball offer. Car dealers are like psychologists. They know how to maximize profit on the sale while simultaneously making you feel like the winner in the negotiation. A car buying negotiation is actually a great example of why debt should be eliminated/avoided as a general rule going forward. When doing a deal, such as buying a car, we give the associated debt a fun name by calling it "financing."

Car salesman: "Would you like to assume some debt to buy this car?"
Customer: "No thanks!"

Car Salesman: "Okay, then how about some financing?"
Customer: "Sure! That sounds smart."

Now, instead of negotiating the actual price of the car, the salesman gets to play a game of smoke and mirrors with the customer. And so the focus of the discussion shifts to monthly payments, interest rates, and loan terms. If the salesman can't "make the numbers work," he can always tell you that your trade-in is in worse shape than expected and shift numbers accordingly. The point is that debt turns this otherwise simple procedure into a more complex discussion with several moving parts. When paying cash, you have one focus - the final sale price of the car.

Debt has the same effect in other areas of life. It complicates things unnecessarily. In deals involving debt, you spend more time trying to understand how to use loans to your advantage than you do negotiating the final price to your advantage. It's not about being intelligent enough to handle the variables of debt; rather, it's about being disciplined enough to avoid debt.

I have watched my father do the 'rich dad' thing for almost 20 years, and yet he's not rich, and still can't retire. He invests in RE in lots of 'good debt' and yet because he doesn't have that paid off, he keeps getting in 'bad debt' the moment his business has a downturn. Debt is a behavioral not a math issue, I am convinced.

This guy had the benefit of assessing his dad's financial strategy for nearly 20 years. What did he learn? #1 "Good debt" is a misnomer (i.e. debt is bad) and #2 debt is behavioral, not a math issue. These concepts are absolutely fundamental. Keep in mind - most people accept debt as a normal part of life... and most people are broke.

I know you were probably more interested in getting objective advice involving numbers and interest rates, but you really have to subscribe to those fundamental concepts before doing anything else. Why? Because otherwise you would drown in options. If debt is on the table, you'll have much less clarity. Say I have $1,000 to buy a lawn mower. If I am staunchly anti-debt, then my options are obvious. I can buy any lawn mower that is available for $1,000 or less. Now, imagine I am open to using debt to help me get any lawn mower up to $20,000 ($1,000 down payment and up to $19,000 financed). Now, I'm going to have a back and forth with myself about what is possible and what is reasonable. Since everyone and their brother uses financing, it's certainly reasonable to buy with financing... right? I'll justify a decision to spend more than I have by weighing the safety features and my carbon footprint and how fat my dog is. Probably don't want to use the full $20,000, but middle of the road seems wise. So, I buy a nice lawn mower with some, but not all, of the bells and whistles for $10K ($1,000 down payment and $9,000 financed). I walk away feeling great because I got a sweet lawn mower with a super-low interest rate of 0.9%. What I don't realize is that not having a tough, anti-debt stance just cost me over $9K.

Step #1: Eliminate debt and never go back in (because debt is not about the math, it's about behavior).

Step #2: Build assets (i.e. invest in index funds +/- rental real estate with cash only).

All that being said, if I woke up in your shoes - this is what I would do...

Cash on-hand: $100K
*Use ~$7K to pay off car and never get another car loan again.
*Use ~$83K to reduce student loan balance from $342K down to $259K.
*Consider refinancing student loan to lower fixed interest rate, if possible. Not so you can carry the loan longer, but so you can slow the bleeding.
*Keep ~$10K on-hand for emergency fund (assuming you have good short-term disability insurance).

Income after taxes and 401(k) deduction: $200K/yr
*This is excellent!

Housing costs: $30K/yr
*Cut to $10K/yr by renting apartment while eliminating debt.
*After debt is gone, save at least 20% down payment for a house.

Utility costs: $7K/yr
*Cut in half by renting as suggested above.

Insurance costs: 7K/yr
*Look into why this is so high.

Food costs: $12K/yr
*Consider cutting these costs in half (less EtOH? Less eating out?).

Gas costs: $3K/yr
*Adjusted per last post.

Roth IRAs (backdoor): $11K/yr
*You can start doing it now if you want, or wait until your debt-free. Up to you.

Your original budget showed expenses at ~$128K/yr, leaving $72K/yr left over. In that scenario, it would take ~4+ years to aggressively eliminate student loans. If you make the suggested changes, expenses would be ~$100K, leaving $100K left over. In that scenario, it would only take ~3 years to aggressively eliminate the debt. Would emphasize the importance of avoiding a house at this time. A house is obviously expensive at face value, but they also come with a variety of unforeseen expenses... lawn mower, grill, indoor furniture, outdoor furniture, ongoing maintenance costs, etc. Would slow you down and prevent you from progressing quickly through the student loan mess.
 
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What are you people eating to spend 500/mo in food for a family of two?
 
According to mint between fast food, restaurants, and groceries (part of which includes costco so is more than just food) we are usually around 300-500 for 2.5 people (my sister lives with us but also buys some food that I figure covers half her costs) plus 3 cats (since I get their food and litter at costco). And we eat a lot of meat and veggies that obviously costs more than ramen. But we do try to minimize eating out and grocery prices are pretty low here.
 
I can't fathom a good reason to encourage someone to take 7K and pay off zero interest debt instead of paying down higher interest debt

See article from Journal of Consumer Research. As previously stated, debt is more about behavior (psychology) than math. I know... it's counterintuitive, but it turns out that people may be more emotional than rational when it comes to money.
 
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What about clothing? Whether you should be taking vacations or not is up for debate, but if you plan on it you need to budget for it.

Agree with the common sense advice of not buying new cars, getting rid of car payment, etc. Paying off the loans as rapidly as possible is not always the best option, especially if you can refi into something around 3%. In that case, you would be better off saving/investing your extra cash and paying off the loan slowly. BUT you need to be real with yourself about whether you'll actually be able to do that. A lot of people just spend the money. Suggest diverting it out of your paycheck into taxable investing account on autopilot.
 
See article from Journal of Consumer Research. As previously stated, debt is more about behavior (psychology) than math. I know... it's counterintuitive, but it turns out that people may be more emotional than rational when it comes to money.
Seems the better answer would be to learn to be more rational about money. OP has already made the step of itemizing expenses and evaluating a budget (part of which includes regular savings on top or retirement savings). I see no mention of credit card debt. His budget has some high estimates (one of which he has already revised down) but still comes under his income by a health amount. He has refinanced his student loans to a better rate. Basically no reason to lump the OP in with the jackasses who can't control their credit card spending. He seems perfectly capable of making a spreadsheet or entering in all his info onto mint.com or something similar so he can get the pleasure of seeing debt balance decline as assets increase and use net worth as his motivation rather than sacrificing the interest reduction he could have achieved with that 7k put to better use (not even getting in to what it could have become if invested long term with the magic of compound interest)
 
What about clothing? Whether you should be taking vacations or not is up for debate, but if you plan on it you need to budget for it.

Agree with the common sense advice of not buying new cars, getting rid of car payment, etc. Paying off the loans as rapidly as possible is not always the best option, especially if you can refi into something around 3%. In that case, you would be better off saving/investing your extra cash and paying off the loan slowly. BUT you need to be real with yourself about whether you'll actually be able to do that. A lot of people just spend the money. Suggest diverting it out of your paycheck into taxable investing account on autopilot.

I would probably wait to divert into taxable investing until the retirement accounts are fully funded, including backdoor Roth IRA, and loans are either paid off or manageable.

I do agree that only saving about 10% income (29k on 300k salary) is not likely to be enough in retirement.
 
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This is an important discussion. It could be a difference of millions of dollars over this guy's lifetime depending on the information and motivation he walks away with.

I expected someone to disagree with my suggestion to pay off the $7K car loan ASAP. If the interest on the student loan is reduced to 4.375%, then we are talking about $306/year of interest on $7K. That number ($306/yr) is insignificant. We are talking about a $349,000 problem. Don't fail to see the forest for the trees. The goal is not to pay the least amount of interest (math). The goal is to develop a major aversion to debt (behavior). Can he pay the debts off in an order that takes math AND behavior into account? Yeah. He can do whatever he wants. If he can consistently pull in $300-350K annually for 25-30 years, he's going to be fine even if the initial budget became his long-term plan. The point is that money is not (completely) rational. There is a strong emotional component that a many people fail to acknowledge. Why would you ever pay off a loan with a lower interest rate before a loan with a higher interest rate? The idea is... when you get quick victories by paying the smaller debts first, it's emotionally motivating (Dave Ramsey 101). It motivates you to pay off the next one and the next one (the Debt Snowball). Then, when you eventually come to the otherwise discouragingly massive loans, you have the wind under your sails and you can keep going. This is a strategy founded on psychology. It's also a matter of focus. I think we can all agree that focusing on one goal yields better results than splitting focus simultaneously between multiple goals.

His budget has some high estimates (one of which he has already revised down) but still comes under his income by a health amount.

no reason to lump the OP in with the jackasses who can't control their credit card spending.

I'm not suggesting that anyone is stupid. Human? Yes. Prone to irrational behavior? Yes. Are intelligent, college-educated people prone to irrational behavior just like everyone else? Yeah. If I spend more because I can afford to spend more... why is it rational to spend more? If I have a flat tire, but the car still moves forward, does that mean I should drive on it? My suggestions to tighten up the budget are not driven by concern that he can't afford the lifestyle he mapped out. I suggest tightening the budget so the risk (debt) can be eliminated quickly and he can move on to building wealth. For this to make sense, he has to be convinced that debt is bad. If he is always rationalizing debt with "but the interest rate is..." then he is clearly missing the big picture. Step #1: Eliminate debt. Step #2 Build, invest, and grow. You wouldn't work on building a camp in the wilderness with your back turned to a pack of wolves. You would participate in reality by acknowledging the wolves are there, going about the strenuous and unpleasant experience of eliminating them, and then proceed to build your camp. We need to recognize debt for what it is - a threat. I want him to be rich. If he wants a laissez faire approach to managing his money, then setting the bar at "turns out I'm spending less than what I make" is probably fine. Personally, I would rather make sacrifices to win more and win faster.
 
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I'm personally not for the snowballing method for debt paydown, the car is also truly interest free to some extent, my spouse gets a vehicle for $X amount through a family discount, literally no negotiating.

Ideally I want to pay down highest interest first, I have no other debts than what is listed above (no credit cards, small loans or anything else).

I will need to reassess the food and insurance and some other items, I appreciate the input with philosophical views on debt
 
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This is an important discussion. It could be a difference of millions of dollars over this guy's lifetime depending on the information and motivation he walks away with.

I expected someone to disagree with my suggestion to pay off the $7K car loan ASAP. If the interest on the student loan is reduced to 4.375%, then we are talking about $306/year of interest on $7K. That number ($306/yr) is insignificant. We are talking about a $349,000 problem. Don't fail to see the forest for the trees. The goal is not to pay the least amount of interest (math). The goal is to develop a major aversion to debt (behavior). Can he pay the debts off in an order that takes math AND behavior into account? Yeah. He can do whatever he wants. If he can consistently pull in $300-350K annually for 25-30 years, he's going to be fine even if the initial budget became his long-term plan. The point is that money is not (completely) rational. There is a strong emotional component that a many people fail to acknowledge. Why would you ever pay off a loan with a lower interest rate before a loan with a higher interest rate? The idea is... when you get quick victories by paying the smaller debts first, it's emotionally motivating (Dave Ramsey 101). It motivates you to pay off the next one and the next one (the Debt Snowball). Then, when you eventually come to the otherwise discouragingly massive loans, you have the wind under your sails and you can keep going. This is a strategy founded on psychology. It's also a matter of focus. I think we can all agree that focusing on one goal yields better results than splitting focus simultaneously between multiple goals.





I'm not suggesting that anyone is stupid. Human? Yes. Prone to irrational behavior? Yes. Are intelligent, college-educated people prone to irrational behavior just like everyone else? Yeah. If I spend more because I can afford to spend more... why is it rational to spend more? If I have a flat tire, but the car still moves forward, does that mean I should drive on it? My suggestions to tighten up the budget are not driven by concern that he can't afford the lifestyle he mapped out. I suggest tightening the budget so the risk (debt) can be eliminated quickly and he can move on to building wealth. For this to make sense, he has to be convinced that debt is bad. If he is always rationalizing debt with "but the interest rate is..." then he is clearly missing the big picture. Step #1: Eliminate debt. Step #2 Build, invest, and grow. You wouldn't work on building a camp in the wilderness with your back turned to a pack of wolves. You would participate in reality by acknowledging the wolves are there, going about the strenuous and unpleasant experience of eliminating them, and then proceed to build your camp. We need to recognize debt for what it is - a threat. I want him to be rich. If he wants a laissez faire approach to managing his money, then setting the bar at "turns out I'm spending less than what I make" is probably fine. Personally, I would rather make sacrifices to win more and win faster.
Sounds like you are replacing one irrational act with another instead of addressing the irrationality. If you want to win more and win faster you should want to address behavior while also letting the math help you. That is certainly what helped me get to where I am with my net worth. That, and understanding that even in the face of large numbers that 300 bucks is not insignificant especially since it is the difference between paying the loan off 3 months early with about 3700 less interest or not.

To use your example you are advocating spending your time hunting and killing the bear instead of just chasing him off with some bear spray and building your shelter.
 
This is too much fun.

To use your example you are advocating spending your time hunting and killing the bear instead of just chasing him off with some bear spray and building your shelter.

Well, I said a pack of wolves... but whatever.
Correct, because bear spray is only a temporary solution. The bear is not going to forget about you (Translation: The loans are always there. They cannot be canceled. They are non-bankruptable. They are your problem to deal with. Period.). Yes, you could spray the bear every month for 10 years, and at some point the bear will die of old age. Why not just deal with it all at once and move on?

it is the difference between paying the loan off 3 months early with about 3700 less interest

The amount calculated above represents what would happen if $300/yr built up over 10 years at 4.375% interest. That is not the situation at-hand. We were talking about shoveling $7K at the car loan today vs monthly over the next 18 months. It's a much smaller timeframe. The ramifications are not nearly that big. Anyway, he already decided not to do what I suggested with the car loan, and that's alright. I'm not arguing the math. I'm just saying that these are not a pure math problems like we all want them to be (me included).

If it was only about math, then...
#1 Why are we not advising him to refinance the car on a 72-month term? The math works! He can make more by investing that money!
#2 Why are we not advising him to buy a house with no money down? The math works! He can make more by investing that money!
#3 Why are we not advising him to invest in index funds using margin? The math works! He can make more by investing that money!
#4 Why are we not advising him to charge all of his living expenses to a credit card that offers 0% interest for 18 months, and then pay it off one day before the 18 months is up? The math works! He can make more by investing that money!

Where does the madness end?
 
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This is too much fun.

Well, I said a pack of wolves... but whatever.
Correct, because bear spray is only a temporary solution. The bear is not going to forget about you (Translation: The loans are always there. They cannot be canceled. They are non-bankruptable. They are your problem to deal with. Period.). Yes, you could spray the bear every month for 10 years, and at some point the bear would die of old age. Why not just deal with it all at once and move on?

I could have sworn you made an analogy to building your house while a pack of wolves (student loan) and a bear (car loan) were around. The bear spray is temporary but the bear is going to die in 18 months anyway and isn't costing any extra in the meantime so it is like he is going to run away and die with just the bear spray.

The amount calculated above represents what would happen if $300/yr built up over 10 years at 4.375% interest. That is not the situation at-hand. We were talking about shoveling $7K at the car loan today vs monthly over the next 18 months. It's a much smaller timeframe. The ramifications are not nearly that big. Anyway, he already decided not to do what I suggested with the car loan, and that's alright. I'm not arguing the math. I'm just saying that these are not a pure math problems like we all want them to be (me included).
We are discussing what he should do with 7k that he has lying around. That amount I listed is the amount of interest he would pay extra if he chose to listen to you instead of taking that 7k and make an extra principal payment this month (or pretty close if he chooses to do neither thing and leaves that money in a savings account earning next to nothing)

If it was only about math, then...
#1 Why are we not advising him to refinance the car on a 72-month term? The math works! He can make more by investing that money!
#2 Why are we not advising him to buy a house with no money down? The math works! He can make more by investing that money!
#3 Why are we not advising him to invest in index funds using margin? The math works! He can make more by investing that money!
#4 Why are we not advising him to charge all of his living expenses to a credit card that offers 0% interest for 18 months, and then pay it off one day before the 18 months is up? The math works! He can make more by investing that money!

Were does the madness end?
#1 if he could refinance his car loan at zero percent with no fees I would absolutely advise that, but that isn't a realistic option.
#2 buying a house with no money down means higher interest rate or PMI (maybe both) so without calculating the difference using expected returns and taking all the complexities into account (tax consequences either way being a big one) you can't recommend that. The difference would likely be worse than any 100% guaranteed rate of return would gain you so I think it is safe to recommend the down payment that minimizes the rate but not waiting to accumulate more than that (typically 20%).
#3 has the issue of returns being unpredictable and interest being charged on the margin loan so that would not generally be a recommendation (though it might be reasonable for some people to do it)
#4 I actually did this multiple times. Paired with a card that gives you cash back it can be quite nice but you wouldn't want to out the money into something high risk because the time frame is short. But even if the money is just put into an online savings account each month and earns 1% on top of the 1 to 5% cash back it earns (which monthly you can redeem and send to the student loans) you will come out ahead. Requires good credit and enough income for the company to give you a high enough limit if you want to put the whole intro period worth of expenses on it. Also requires expenses that can be put on a card without incurring extra cost, but works if you are disciplined.
 
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#4 I actually did this multiple times.

Why am I not surprised...

That amount I listed is the amount of interest he would pay extra if he chose to listen to you instead of taking that 7k and make an extra principal payment this month (or pretty close if he chooses to do neither thing and leaves that money in a savings account earning next to nothing)

Ok... so best case scenario, that math is still wrong.

$7,000 x (1.04375^10) = $3740
$300//yr x 1.04375/yr compounded over 10 years = $3740

Either way, you're talking about a 10-year timeframe. The actual problem involves 18 months... He is either paying $7K on the car today, or $7K divided monthly over the next 18 months... What happens to $7K over 18 months is not remarkable in any way... Furthermore, if we were looking at a 10-year timeframe (which we are not), you would need to adjust for inflation, which would eat heavily into that $3740. All of this just illustrates one of the points I was trying to make in the beginning - that debt unnecessarily complicates things.
 
I could have sworn you made an analogy to building your house while a pack of wolves (student loan) and a bear (car loan) were around. The bear spray is temporary but the bear is going to die in 18 months anyway and isn't costing any extra in the meantime so it is like he is going to run away and die with just the bear spray.


We are discussing what he should do with 7k that he has lying around. That amount I listed is the amount of interest he would pay extra if he chose to listen to you instead of taking that 7k and make an extra principal payment this month (or pretty close if he chooses to do neither thing and leaves that money in a savings account earning next to nothing)


#1 if he could refinance his car loan at zero percent with no fees I would absolutely advise that, but that isn't a realistic option.
#2 buying a house with no money down means higher interest rate or PMI (maybe both) so without calculating the difference using expected returns and taking all the complexities into account (tax consequences either way being a big one) you can't recommend that. The difference would likely be worse than any 100% guaranteed rate of return would gain you so I think it is safe to recommend the down payment that minimizes the rate but not waiting to accumulate more than that (typically 20%).
#3 has the issue of returns being unpredictable and interest being charged on the margin loan so that would not generally be a recommendation (though it might be reasonable for some people to do it)
#4 I actually did this multiple times. Paired with a card that gives you cash back it can be quite nice but you wouldn't want to out the money into something high risk because the time frame is short. But even if the money is just put into an online savings account each month and earns 1% on top of the 1 to 5% cash back it earns (which monthly you can redeem and send to the student loans) you will come out ahead. Requires good credit and enough income for the company to give you a high enough limit if you want to put the whole intro period worth of expenses on it. Also requires expenses that can be put on a card without incurring extra cost, but works if you are disciplined.
So how much debt do you currently have? And do you ever believe you will get out of it? The issue is that debt is a liability, and the lender can call it at anytime.
 
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Why am I not surprised...



Ok... so best case scenario, that math is still wrong.

$7,000 x (1.04375^10) = $3740
$300//yr x 1.04375/yr compounded over 10 years = $3740

Either way, you're talking about a 10-year timeframe. The actual problem involves 18 months... He is either paying $7K on the car today, or $7K divided monthly over the next 18 months... What happens to $7K over 18 months is not remarkable in any way... Furthermore, if we were looking at a 10-year timeframe (which we are not), you would need to adjust for inflation, which would eat heavily into that $3740. All of this just illustrates one of the points I was trying to make in the beginning - that debt unnecessarily complicates things.
I'm talking about a 10 yr time frame because that is the length of the loan repayment. Plugging the numbers into a student loan calculator with a zero dollars extra payment this month versus a 7k payment this month gets me the difference in total interest paid (and the change in payoff date).
 
I'm talking about a 10 yr time frame because that is the length of the loan repayment. Plugging the numbers into a student loan calculator with a zero dollars extra payment this month versus a 7k payment this month gets me the difference in total interest paid (and the change in payoff date).

That suggests he can refinance the car loan at 0% on a 10-year term. Not the case, my friend.
 
So how much debt do you currently have? And do you ever believe you will get out of it? The issue is that debt is a liability, and the lender can call it at anytime.
Total debt as of last month (I update things monthly) just under 537k. I am 5 yrs out from residency. 66k is student loans locked in at 1.625 with a 20yr repayment plan (these were my old variable rate loans that I consolidated back when they gave all kinds of incentives to do so and I did it when rates were low). 22k is a zero interest car loan. The rest is two mortgages (what is left on the house we bought in residency and now rent out at a nice profit, and our current house that I decided to upgrade to). Have another property that is a profitable rental (the condo we bought in med school) that had a high enough rate I decided to pay it off early since I couldn't refinance at a low enough rate to be worth keeping the loan. My non retirement accounts could pay off the rental mortgage, the car, and the student loans but I see no reason to. Current house has a 15 yr mortgage so assuming I don't do anything different before then in 13.5 yrs I will be debt free. With the current value of the properties and the retirement and nonretirement accounts I have a net worth of close to 1.5 million. With my rental property cash flow I am able to service all my debt so I am pretty damn close to financial independence (technically I could manage it now with a reduction in lifestyle, but I figure in 5 to 10 yrs I will hit my number that allows all the vacationing I like plus other things that wouldn't rely on the value of the properties or the cash flow, the range is because I have some projects in mind for the house that might divert some funds). But if I count money in retirement accounts I could be debt free tomorrow if I felt it was necessary.
 
That suggests he can refinance the car loan at 0% on a 10-year term. Not the case, my friend.
The student loan repayment. The 7k would be an extra payment on the student loan versus the car loan (which has no difference in interest if paid now versus paid later). He already has enough money to pay his bills. He has up to 100k extra to do something with. You suggest paying off the car with part of it. The amount I listed is the opportunity cost of doing so (though I suppose I should have calculated the 7k extra now versus 400 every month after now)
 
The student loan repayment. The 7k would be an extra payment on the student loan versus the car loan (which has no difference in interest if paid now versus paid later). He already has enough money to pay his bills. He has up to 100k extra to do something with. You suggest paying off the car with part of it. The amount I listed is the opportunity cost of doing so (though I suppose I should have calculated the 7k extra now versus 400 every month after now)

Yeah, I understand. The math for that one is a bit more complicated than a student loan calculator can handle. Everything in this equation is fixed. Income is fixed, cash-on hand is fixed, student loan is fixed (on a 10-year term) and car loan is fixed (with 18 months left on the loan term). Whether we pay the car off today or gradually over the next 18 months, either way we're spending $7K on the car between now and 18 months from now. There is no magical extra $7K generated by kicking the can down the road 18 months on paying off the car.
 
Hi all, long time SDN poster using a throwaway. Signed my contract now in my final year of EM residency. Currently getting a budget together, will eventually go to someone professional but trying to get something for now.

Some background info:
Plan on working 25-30 years for what it's worth. Will have 342,000 in student loan debt between myself and spouse at time of graduation at a 10-year fixed 4.375%. We are both thankfully young and healthy. Will be graduating residency with about 75k-100k in cash depending on how much more I moonlight. No kids (yet)

Will be making 300-350k/year as W2 employee, I used 300k for safety. Full good benefits paid by employer with low deductible health insurance. State income tax is ~6.25%

Planned on maxing 401k (18k), doing backdoor roth x2(11k) for myself and spouse for total of 29k pre-tax deduction. So leaves with 271k gross income.

Yearly fixed expenses:
State&Fed Income tax 81883
House 25000-34000 (traditional fixed with P&I, Ins, Taxes)
Utilities 7200
non-medmal insurance 7000
Student Loans 53000
Car payments 4800
Total fixed = ~180,000-189,000/yr

"Variable" Expenses:
Retirement at 18% (subtracting the 29k pre-tax) = 31,000
Food 12000
Gas 8000
Cash Savings 7500
Total variable = 58,500/yr

Left over for everything else = 32,500-23,000

I acknowledge the house will put us behind with respect to more debt, I'm okay with that. Beyond that, does this seem reasonable? I'm not used to seeing any income of 300k so I have no idea if 23-32k leftover after the above is enough. What else should I be looking at for pre-tax deduction? I expect to get some degree of cash back at tax time for itemized deductions particularly with the house but I'm ignoring that intentionally for the time being.

Thanks for reading, be brutally honest :)

Utilities, food, and gas seem high. Also don't know what the $7500 cash savings is. You don't say what the size/rate/length of time the mortgage is, but it looks like it's not unreasonable. If anything, you have too much cash on hand for an emergency fund, I'd put some of it towards the student loans or mortgage.

I'm OK with not paying off the car debt. I think the Ramsey method is useful for some people, especially if your issues are primarily behavioral/psychological, but it's not the end-all-be-all for everyone.

As for the rest, up to you to determine between a taxable account vs loans vs mortgage. Depends on the rates and how you think the stock market will do. The past 8 years you would have been better off in the market, but no guarantee the next 8 will be the same.

Other things to look for: option for an HSA? Options for a 403(b) or 457(b)?

Check out the White Coat Investor website for way more useful information than we can give you on here.
 
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