personality disorders and careers

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ClinPsycMasters

I had a discussion with some of my friends/classmates about personality disorders/traits in different careers such as psychiatry, law, management, sex workers, etc. It all started after a friend of mine mentioned his professor must be OCPD.

I can't find any definitive source, and of course there is no denying the environmental factors. Any suggestions?

I work with psychiatrists in my line of work/research, and a few psychiatrists I've worked with would meet the criteria for NPD, specially the head of the department here. 😉

Many people in the media, politics, and business must have NPD or ASPD traits too.

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I don't know if there is any solid data out there on this sort of thing, but I can believe that there may very well be a higher level of narcissist traits/arrogance among people in the mental health professions.
Psychotherapy encourages introspection and introspection taken to excess can certainly lead people to become overly self-absorbed. I can imagine it could potentially also lead someone to feel superior if they perceive themselves as the "voice of reason" to a lot of people who have dysfunctional ways of thinking.

Another issue is that since many diagnoses and metrics of mental health treatment are fairly subjective, you don't always get the humbling experience of being clearly proven wrong that a lot of other fields get to experience at least sometimes.

I definitely think it is important to try to stay humble. Another issue that I think sometimes mental health workers need to remember that just because someone is mentally ill doesn't mean we're necessarily smarter than they are or that everything they say is nonsense. I kind of chuckled when I noticed in a report on one patient where a social worker described "delusions" that the patient had about cigarettes having special chemicals in them to make the cigarette extinguish itself. Thing is, those cigarettes actually DO exist! The interviewer just didn't happen to be aware of that.
 
I too have not seen any solid data backing up that certain personality disorders are more likely in certain professions though I believe it. Almost every sex worker I've known, (in this case, exotic dancers, not prostitutes or escorts) had a cluster B personality disorder.

I've certainly seen a different spectrum with medical doctors vs the rest of the population.
 
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I wouldn't say that psychiatry attracts people who are NPD -- instead, medicine in general attracts (and supports) NPD types. From what I've seen with attendings and fellow students, NPD and OCPD are the two most common PDs in medicine. Narcissistic types also like academics in general, so I do wonder if there are more NPD types in academic medicine rather than non-academic medicine. So far I haven't seen any greater level of personality disorders in psychiatry than I did on my other rotations. Actually, I've seen less.

I can see the point, though, that all mental health professions can produce a certain amount of arrogance. We've had other conversations here about people choosing psychiatry because they liked the power that psychiatrists have.
 
The surgeons are the true rock stars of the profession, and if you met one who wasn't NPD, who didn't think he was God almighty, you know this line of work wasn't his first choice. 😛

And many neurologists are socially awkward while ER docs are antisocial (why else did he lie to me regarding a painful procedure and laugh when I winced in pain) 🙂...okay, I should stop stereotyping but let's just do one more for fun, only because I've worked with quite a few of them:

psychiatrists: except the department head who was an overt narcissistic, a couple of cocky research psychiatrists, two old-fashioned domineering older guys, and one socially awkward joker psychiatrist, most have been quite humble and friendly and fun to be around. They're real social folks, mostly introverted and have great intuition. Their love/need for power is not obvious at first sight but it's there and comes out in more subtle ways. Though they come across as easygoing and laid-back, they have astonishing level of mental discipline and vigor, which is as cutting as the surgeon's knife. That is why I work with psychiatrists and enjoy it.

p.s. as far as sex workers, I agree with Whopper regarding cluster B personality though some seem to be "normal" enough yet drawn to it after childhood abuse or drug problems.
 
There was a study published in Jama... sorry, I don't remember when... which compared different types of personalities and showed which specialities they are more likely to pursue. Notably, EM and Psychiatry were found to have the most similar personality types.

Nothing scientific here, but from my observations, I've probably seen the most personality disorders amongst internists and the various subspecialties than anything else followed by surgery and anesthesia. It definitely exists in Psych, but not more than any other specialty.

Other specialties like to label people in Psychiatry as "crazy" because it's easy to do. And 9 times out of ten, the person calling the other one crazy, is usually the craziest of all.
 
Anyone who works in mental health knows broad generalizations that lack true peer-reviewed data are next to useless, and they may do more harm than good as they can impact objectivity of the clinician.
 
There was a study published in Jama... sorry, I don't remember when... which compared different types of personalities and showed which specialities they are more likely to pursue. Notably, EM and Psychiatry were found to have the most similar personality types..

As scientifically confirmed here--
 
As scientifically confirmed here--

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

My generalizations, some intentionally humorous while others unintentionally, were based on my experience. But I appreciate the scientific evidence. 😀

Thank you, that was the funniest thing I've seen this week.
 
Anyone who works in mental health knows broad generalizations that lack true peer-reviewed data are next to useless, and they may do more harm than good as they can impact objectivity of the clinician.

True, though IMHO, stating an opinion, and clearly indicating it's limitations (e.g. just from what I see) can provide some benefit.

There is data showing that certain personality types based on some personality assessments, e.g. the Myers Briggs do have some effect in the workplace.

I haven't gone through the data with a fine tooth comb. I do know that some medical schools such as Jefferson are using this data. I talked to one of the professors there doing work in this area, but nuts, I forgot his name. (Great lecturer though, and he usually gives workshops at the "little" APA to chief residents each year).

Found a website showing some of this research.

http://www.gesher.org/Myers-Briggs/mbti chart and specialty.html
 
I had it down to EM and Psych. To this day, I'm still not sure if I made the right decision. Interestingly enough, I did have my highest evaluations in both of these specialties and also got along best with the associated attendings.
 
I had it down to EM and Psych. To this day, I'm still not sure if I made the right decision. Interestingly enough, I did have my highest evaluations in both of these specialties and also got along best with the associated attendings.

that's surprising to me because I don't see much commonality between these two specialties. I was unable to locate EM in the link Whopper posted either.

I usually test NF btw, so based on Myers Briggs table, top three choices are child psychiatry, neurosurgery, and psychiatry. I went into clinical psychology so close enough I guess. Then again, how accurate is this info? I mean, we have neurosurgery listed right after child psych?! Surgery is hardly NF.
 
I hated emergency medicine and actually made my lowest grade in medical school in it. Boring, boring, boring! Also, I felt like the EM docs, while very nice, were very negative about psychiatry. It was one of the rotations where I got the most negative comments about my specialty choice.
 
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The only issues I had with EM doctors was getting a medically cleared patient who clearly was not stable enough for psychiatry.

E.g. a punctured lung, 2 broken legs (that were not treated), BP of 240/140, blood sugar of 450, a Staph aureus infection....

I kid you not I had cases like this, and the ER doctor told me with straight face that nothing was wrong.

But getting back to the OT, I'm of the opinion (and it's an opinion only based on my observations) that certain personalities tend to pick certain professions, but certain professions tend to mold personalities. By the time residents end for example surgery, the similarities of surgery, for years of practice, will affect their personalities.

This would be an interesting study--to follow residents and see if their personality traits change, and if so, how.
 
I had it down to EM and Psych. To this day, I'm still not sure if I made the right decision. Interestingly enough, I did have my highest evaluations in both of these specialties and also got along best with the associated attendings.
I also really liked EM (and EM docs) in med school. My experience has been many people in both fields have a certain kind of dark sense of humor because of all the strange or sad cases these fields encounter.
EM docs often do seem to lose their patience with psych patients since they see many psych patients at their worst, but I haven't run into much negativity from EM people about psych as a career so far (except for an exasperated "Why would you want to deal with that all the time?" after seeing a difficult psych patient in the ED together).
 
Almost every sex worker I've known, (in this case, exotic dancers, not prostitutes or escorts) had a cluster B personality disorder.

Not to get too personal here, but Whopper, has your knowledge of sex workers been primarily in the mental health setting? If so it would make sense that you've seen so many Cluster B's. Cluster As won't present for treatment, and Cluster C's--well, maybe they won't even tell you that they're in the sex business. Sex workers with no cluster diagnosis won't need to see you at all.

Also, I would think that line of work might wear on a person over time, and just like surgeons are molded by their work, so might a sex worker be affected by the difficulty of their job. Someone who starts out very "wild" might tone it down over time or get jaded by their experiences. But who knows.

I'm not saying that sex workers are like tax attorneys though. I can see that they are probably more Cluster B-ish than your average lawyer or accountant.
 
Not to get too personal here, but Whopper, has your knowledge of sex workers been primarily in the mental health setting?

Sex worker may not be the right term. Many exotic dancers I've known think it means a prostitute, not a dancer.

But to answer to your question, I've known 5 women who were exotic dancers on a personal level that was not within the realm of being a patient. Each of them had several borderline or histrionic PD traits if not the full disorder, all of them had some type of sexual abuse, and each of them IMHO had an issue where they overly relied on their sexual appeal to attain their ends. Their coping skills in other areas were not developed, and they either were in a situation where their youth and beauty were gone, and they could no longer use their sexual charm to attain their ends, or they were on that path.

Of the exotic dancers I've had as patients--about 10, they were pretty much on the same order as those I've known who were not patients.

I've had a few patients that were prostitutes, and they actually appeared to be on the same spectrum. All of them suffered some type of sexual abuse, and had cluster B traits. These ladies, however, had different and far worse SES issues. Many of them were very open to not being alive in the next 10 years for whatever reason--e.g. expecting to get killed by a random John, substance dependence or abuse, knowing they had no way to make money once their youth and beauty faded away---in which case death was an option. They also often came from broken homes--to the degree where many of them had to run away from home and had no way to support themselves. In comparison with the exotic dancers, that was a noticeable difference. Most of the exotic dancers I knew were doing it to help support themselves in college or did it instead of a "real" job, but as time went by, the money was too fast and good for them to want to give it up. They were, however, in a better position to actually have a "real" job if they wanted to do so. The prostitutes on the other hand....lower intelligence, drug dependence, broken homes, etc...on a far worse extreme.

One of those ladies I knew who was an exotic dancer (and she was bisexual--which you'll see why I mentioned that in a second), I dated for a few months right after I graduated colllege. Let's just say that my young, hormonally driven, 22-year-old mind at that time had a lot of fantasies on where that relationship could've gone and it blinded me to getting out of that relationship. It was a nightmare. It was the first time I really had to deal with a borderline person on such a personal level and her life was in such a state of chaos, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. She had an ex-girlfriend that was stalking her and vandalized her car. The relationship between the two was Melrose Place to the 10th power. The things that went on were to the point where they were as bad as they could get short of crossing a major felony level crime such as aggravated assault.

That is just the tip of the iceberg. Trust me, there was some real crazy drama going on. Melrose Place was tame compared to her life. I only mentioned what happened between her and her ex-gf. Almost every person she knew, there was some type of hurricane/destructive type of relationship.

It was the first time I came to realize that her behavior was part of some type of destructive pattern that I could identify, but I did not know that this was an already identified disorder. When I finally learned about borderline PD in medical school, the lightbulb was turned on and glaring me in the face--"So that's what she had!!!"

That was the only one I dated. A friend of mine in college was an exotic dancer. She too had emotional instability, and some very strange drama going on in her life as well. I lost contact with that person, and about a year later, someone we both mutally knew (who also lost contact with her) told me he saw her in some low budget porn movie that made me feel sick to my stomach. Nothing against porn actors, but IMHO, as well as I knew her, if she entered porn, it could only be because her life was not going in the direction she wanted.

The other ones I knew were friends of friends. Each of them, however, say that all the exotic dancers they knew had similar backgrounds--e.g. sexual abuse or some type of ultra-strict upbringing, not wanting to walk away from the quick money even if they could.
 
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In support of the other side, not all women in those professions are survivors of sexual/physical/emotional abuse, substance abusers, nor are they cluster-B poster children. Admittedly many share those characteristics, but it is dangerous to group them all together. I'm not implying that whopper is doing that, but I think it is easy to fall into the generalizations, much like the frequent-flier addict who comes in to the ED.....most assume s/he is looking to score, but will settle for a meal and a place to sleep it off.
 
Therapist4Chnge:

May I ask about your educational background? Are you a MA/PhD student? What sort of patient population do you deal with regularly?

The main reason I ask is that you have warned about generalizations on several occasion, tacitly discounting personal experience of some of the members. It is fine in my case, given my limited patient contact--which I hinted at myself, but I value Whopper's experience and that of veterans.

I use generalizations as guides. It is good to know something about Italians and Italian culture, for instance, when visiting Italy. It requires too much cognitive effort and one is prone to numerous errors, if we are to treat every person as a total mystery. However, as you remind us, one is also prone to errors if we expect all Italians to behave in a certain stereotypical way, and that would lead to overlooking behaviors (data) that do not fit one's theory. Hence choosing a happy medium seems practical to me.
 
Psychologist (officially in 2 more weeks), and then I head off to fellowship shortly thereafter. I have worked mostly with severe pathology in out-patient, in-patient, and residential settings. Specific to this topic, I have worked with a numerous patients in the various industries mentioned above, conducted research in a correlated area, and have spent most of my last 4 years doing trauma work with many patients who had co-morbid Axis-II Dx's. I don't do much therapy now, though I'd consider these two areas my areas of expertise.

As for my comments in regard to generalizations....I stick by what I said. Nancysinatra alluded to selection bias, which is one of my major concerns with generalizations in a clinical setting. I have others, though I want to stay on topic....so I'll just remind about the limitations of generalizations, particularly in regard to psychiatric Dx's.
 
Congrats! I'll have to start calling you doc pretty soon then. 🙂

Yes, selection bias is important. For some reason I missed NancySinatra's comment.
 
but it is dangerous to group them all together. I'm not implying that whopper is doing that, but I think it is easy to fall into the generalizations

Very much agree. If a patient came in and was a prostitute or exotic dancer, to automatically assume she fits into a specific type of person would be prejudicial.

If we assume we already know a person simply based on their demographic, well that would really destroy the point of interviewing them and observing them. IMHO I really don't know a patient to the degree where there's strong confidence in what's going on with them until I've observed them for at least 3-5 days or by 3-5 visits in the outpatient office. (That is, unless their presentation is just so so so so so so clear..e.g. someone in full blown mania and the UDS is negative. To quote my PD, in that case I'll have the dx down in less time it takes to get my coffee). At that point I'm only strongly confident I know their major Axis I issues. To well know their Axis II issues IMHO requires in depth psychotherapy for at least several sessions, or seeing that person for weeks, our outpatient sessions for several months.

May I ask about your educational background? Are you a MA/PhD student? What sort of patient population do you deal with regularly?

Just like it would be for me to assume that all medical doctors are narcisstic based on my experiences with them as a group. 😉

T4C has posted several times on this board for years, and the posts have been informed and well reasoned.
 
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