Petition your School - Min 50% comp PCAT for Admission

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Sure, you can also misread prednisone and prednisolone. Details matter. And Monsterdaddy had already pointed out how scoring a 25% would not equal 25th percentile so really what is your defense for not knowing the deference? Really you are just proving the point that pharmacy schools do not have high enough standards. So good job on that front.

You realize you’re equating reading a forum in my leisure time in my pajamas while laying in bed to working at a job? You yourself have misread numerous posts. You even got proven wrong by our dear PAtoPharmD when he pointed out you said conflicting things to him. That’s quite an accomplishment.

You like verbally abusing people who are clearly advocating for the good of the profession, well done! Next time I try to do pharmacy a favor I’ll make sure to keep my mouth shut so I wont have to deal with posts trying to justify 7

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Wow I just reread parts of this thread. Explain to me why I’m getting trolled for writing a “7% PCAT” and everyone else is writing “7%” “8%” it’s quite hilarious. I’m too tired to argue anymore I’m going to bed.
 
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Sure, you can also misread prednisone and prednisolone. Details matter. And Monsterdaddy had already pointed out how scoring a 25% would not equal 25th percentile so really what is your defense for not knowing the deference? Really you are just proving the point that pharmacy schools do not have high enough standards. So good job on that front.
That’s quite rude.
 
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Sure, you can also misread prednisone and prednisolone. Details matter. And Monsterdaddy had already pointed out how scoring a 25% would not equal 25th percentile
Even though I know that the PCAT is a percentile score, I'm pretty sure I messed that up earlier too. I'm feeling pretty dumb, but at least this forum is anonymous. I still get to pretend I'm smart in real life. :)
 
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Wow I just reread parts of this thread. Explain to me why I’m getting trolled for writing a “7% PCAT” and everyone else is writing “7%” “8%” it’s quite hilarious. I’m too tired to argue anymore I’m going to bed.

It's because you specifically said you should guess your way to a 25% when it was specifically explained just a few posts above that that isn't how percentiles work. :)

You realize you’re equating reading a forum in my leisure time in my pajamas while laying in bed to working at a job? You yourself have misread numerous posts. You even got proven wrong by our dear PAtoPharmD when he pointed out you said conflicting things to him. That’s quite an accomplishment.

You like verbally abusing people who are clearly advocating for the good of the profession, well done! Next time I try to do pharmacy a favor I’ll make sure to keep my mouth shut so I wont have to deal with posts trying to justify 7

I admit to having misread posts, absolutely. But you should know the PCAT is a percentile not an overall percent score. Besides the fact that you took the exam it was mentioned several times in this very thread. You seem to think someone who scored a 7 percentile is too dumb to be allowed into pharmacy school and you totally unironicly do not even know what that "7%" means even after someone explained it earlier in the thread! I just think the irony is really, really thick.

PA might have thought he pointed out a contradiction or "proved me wrong" but I assure you it was just in his head. Please link to this supposed incident where I contradicted myself in regards to him or he proved me wrong. It never happened.

I was rude. I am sorry. The irony was just too strong for me to pass up.
 
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Not wanting a controversial argument, but depending on the admissions office, this might have been either a diversity or a legacy admit. I'm seen some truly atrocious scores. This might have not been with the consent of the College of Pharmacy but a University stipulation.

By the way, the PCAT is not a straight percentage test as some of you seem to be commenting. It's normalized to a group of people. So, what that 7% is saying is that this person performs at that level compared to an index of testing peers. (That means that there is an expectation that 93% of candidates test at or better than s/he does).

Illustrated:
100 question test: (Number of questions and percentages, with 100 questions, they are the same)
Calibration group:
Owlegrad - 96
Gwarm01 - 95
Lord999 - 90
PAtoPharm - 60

Scale rank score:
Owlegrad - 99% (only 1% or so are expected to score at 96 or higher, note that this is not 100% even though this was the exam setting score)
Gwarm01 - 75% (only 25% or so are expected to score at 95 or higher, though is a very small margin considering Owlegrad's example)
Lord999 - 50% (half of all expected examiners are supposed to get 90 or higher)
PAtoPharm - 25% (75% of all expected examiners are supposed to score above 60).

We have a candidate that scores:
a. 50 raw score, then the candidate would get a percentage no higher than 25% and is adjusted to 50/60 comparison.
b. 75 raw score, then the candidate would get 37% as 15 raw score puts that candidate between PAtoPharm and Lord999.

Depending on how the curve is set, I would consider accepting a low scaled score given other characteristics. The correct interpretation is if this candidate tested against the reference group, then 93% of that reference group would either score as well or better than this candidate, not that 7% of the questions were answered correctly. If 93% of people are expected to score better, then I would have some issues with thinking that I can draw from a better pool. But, if the other credentials are intact, possibly it's due to a bad exam. That said, it takes more than 50 of the raw score correct to even get to the 25% scale score.

Before the 2004 rescale, basically, you only needed to answer something like 40% of the questions correctly to get a 99% in the Chem section. That is why there were consistent 99%ages on the PCAT and why it was not used as admission criteria back then, because even if you scored in the 99%, the initial population setting score was so abysmal that the outperform score is easily achievable.


Random guessing is a combinatorial problem off either the Poisson (for large numbers of questions >50-60 and the assumption that every single question is independent) or the Negative Binomial (for any case, even small ones and also thinks that if you answer one question correctly, related questions should have a higher percentage of being answered correctly). If it were a straight percentage, this person would need to guess correctly around 40/200 for a five-choice multiple test to at least achieve that much due to random chance, but at 14 (7%), is way, way out of simple random guessing. If I got that kind of score, my guess would have been the student had the wrong underlying concept as that's far worse than naive guessing.


--------

NAPLEX doesn't work that way as it's a straight curve not a population scaled curve. That's why I'm harsh toward those who don't pass, because the scaling works definitely in the candidates favor and it's much less than a raw 75 percent to pass. But also in response to some other comments regarding that, no I don't consider the NAPLEX any more than the bare minimum standard, but it should be reasonably achievable consistently by us. MCAT and USMLE have similar approaches and do not use a reference group as a scoring standard.

Not to take away from your point, but all I saw was PAtoPharm at the low end and had a renewed faith in the PCAT.
 
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It's because you specifically said you should guess your way to a 25% when it was specifically explained just a few posts above that that isn't how percentiles work. :)



I admit to having misread posts, absolutely. But you should know the PCAT is a percentile not an overall percent score. Besides the fact that you took the exam it was mentioned several times in this very thread. You seem to think someone who scored a 7 percentile is too dumb to be allowed into pharmacy school and you totally unironicly do not even know what that "7%" means even after someone explained it earlier in the thread! I just think the irony is really, really thick.

PA might have thought he pointed out a contradiction or "proved me wrong" but I assure you it was just in his head. Please link to this supposed incident where I contradicted myself in regards to him or he proved me wrong. It never happened.

I was rude. I am sorry. The irony was just too strong for me to pass up.
I know how percentiles work, and I still think 7 percentile score is unacceptable. 93% of the people did better on the PCAT than that student. Knowing the idiots who are applying, he’s not even competing with geniuses.
 
I know how percentiles work, and I still think 7 percentile score is unacceptable. 93% of the people did better on the PCAT than that student. Knowing the idiots who are applying, he’s not even competing with geniuses.
Two points:

1) I agree it's unacceptable.

2) 93% of the cohort group scored better than him. PCAT test takers are scored against a cohort group, not against one another. It's amazing how few people understand how the scoring works.

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A lot of higher caliber applicants who would have scored 95+ on the PCAT have chosen other professions that would value their intelligence more, i.e. medicine, dentistry, engineering, software development, finance, etc. With the overall pool of PCAT takers being weaker and the test being based on percentile, you get inflation of PCAT scores.

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A lot of higher caliber applicants who would have scored 95+ on the PCAT have chosen other professions that would value their intelligence more, i.e. medicine, dentistry, engineering, software development, finance, etc. With the overall pool of PCAT takers being weaker and the test being based on percentile, you get inflation of PCAT scores.

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No there is no inflation. The scores are scaled against a cohort, not against current test takers.

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Two points:

1) I agree it's unacceptable.

2) 93% of the cohort group scored better than him. PCAT test takers are scored against a cohort group, not against one another. It's amazing how few people understand how the scoring works.

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Who is in the cohort group then? I thought the scores were compared with past and current people who have taken the PCAT. Is that incorrect?
 
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The current PCAT scaled score range of 200–600 was first determined based on a 1998–2003 normative sample, and these scaled scores continue to represent unchanging criteria against which candidates can be evaluated from year to year going back to March 2004. Though changes in the population of PCAT candidates do not affect the relevance of the scaled scores, new percentile ranks must be calculated periodically, based on the performance of a current normative sample. The scaled score and percentile rank information presented in this document is based on all PCAT candidates who took the test for the first time between July 2011 and January 2015 (n = 64,652), with the current percentile ranks in effect for all PCAT test administrations since July 2016.

http://pcatweb.info/downloads/Faculty/Interpreting_PCAT_Scores.pdf

If I'm not wrong, 2011-2012 was when the quality of applicants really started to go downhill.
 
If I'm not wrong, 2011-2012 was when the quality of applicants really started to go downhill.
I think you are correct. Which means the applicants are actually even worse than expected.

I can't be the only one interacting with potential applicants and current students am I? There are some really really dumb applicants I've met who got into pharmacy school. Someone here must have had interactions to back up my assessment in other places right?
 
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Who is in the cohort group then? I thought the scores were compared with past and current people who have taken the PCAT. Is that incorrect?

Well allow me to google that for you. :)

Per PCAT website:

Your percentile rank scores are based on the performance of examinees in the current norm group. The current norm group is defined as all first-time examinees who took the test between July 2011 and January 2015. Your scaled scores are based on the number of live items that you answered correctly for each subtest. Each multiple-choice subtest is calculated separately.

So if the last 2 years of test takers have gone downhill we wouldn't see any inflation of their rank. It will take several cycles until the current test takers inflates the percentile ranks.
 
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I think you are correct. Which means the applicants are actually even worse than expected.

I can't be the only one interacting with potential applicants and current students am I? There are some really really dumb applicants I've met who got into pharmacy school. Someone here must have had interactions to back up my assessment in other places right?
Yes, everyone I’ve worked with has noticed. The quality of students and new pharmacists has been decreasing each year it seems. The preceptors at my job were complaining about it just last week. Lol. And they wonder why I don’t want to precept students.

I’ve even had doctors complain to me about other pharmacists and pharmacy students. I don’t say anything bad about them because that would be unprofessional, but part of me wonders if we are contributing to the problem by turning a blind eye.

The doctors have even gotten concerned enough that they’ve gone to the Pharmacy Director with their complaints.
 
No I’m not. Read my post. That’s what I said previously. They’re compared to past and current test takers.

No. Current test takers would be people taking it this year, right? They are compared to first time test takers (not all test takers) from previous years, currently from 2011 to 2015. I guess if it is important to you you can consider yourself partially correct.

Of course they are compared to other people who took the test, who else could they be compared to? The point is they aren't compared to all test takers or current test takers. :)
 
No. Current test takers would be people taking it this year, right? They are compared to first time test takers (not all test takers) from previous years, currently from 2011 to 2015. I guess if it is important to you you can consider yourself partially correct.

Of course they are compared to other people who took the test, who else could they be compared to? The point is they aren't compared to all test takers or current test takers. :)
I mean, yeah I didn’t look up the exact wording or dates of the group, but I was right that they are compared to previous and current test takers. You made it sound like it was some weirdly selective group that was the cohort, but it’s not. It’s just all the test takers. “First time” is just another detail.
 
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I mean, yeah I didn’t look up the exact wording or dates of the group, but I was right that they are compared to previous and current test takers. You made it sound like it was some weirdly selective group that was the cohort, but it’s not. It’s just all the test takers. “First time” is just another detail.

LOL you hate being wrong don't you? It isn't "current test takers" by any reasonable description of that term.
 
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@owlegrad Even if the PCAT doesn’t compare to current test takers (which I think it does), the admissions committees are comparing. If two candidates both took the PCAT in the same year and one got a 7%tile and the other got 98%tile, it’s not difficult to compare the two scores, since they were already both individually compared to the same normative group. The 98%tile person obviously did much better.
 
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It sounds absolutely insane to me that we have to petition for only a min 50%!? LMAO.
 
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LOL you hate being wrong don't you? It isn't "current test takers" by any reasonable description of that term.
I’ve never been wrong in my life, so I don’t really know if I would hate it or love it. :D
 
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@owlegrad Even if the PCAT doesn’t compare to current test takers (which I think it does)

So you think Pearson is lying about how it calculates the rank? Or you think people who took the test two years ago counts as current?

I do agree that comparing two candidates who took it in the same year is easy so no argument there. :)

I’ve never been wrong in my life, so I don’t really know if I would hate it or love it. :D

LMAO Best reply yet!
 
So you think Pearson is lying about how it calculates the rank? Or you think people who took the test two years ago counts as current?

I do agree that comparing two candidates who took it in the same year is easy so no argument there. :)



LMAO Best reply yet!
I’m not saying they are outright lying. I think the people writing stuff on the Pearson website are not the statisticians who are doing the calculations to come up with the scores. Therefore, they are not fully understanding what they are writing about. I think they most likely had a deadline and they might have been understaffed, so they just wrote something for the heck of it. That’s more likely than me being wrong about this. People have deadlines all the time. People rush and do a half ass job of stuff all the time. Why would these Pearson website employees be any different?

(Lmao! Good thing this is via text because I can’t keep a straight face saying all this.)
 
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Why? This...

7%

That's the composite PCAT score you need now for admission to the #16 pharmacy school. Just 15% composite PCAT for the #2 pharmacy school. And these are only for the schools that dare to publish the PCAT ranges of incoming classes.

Seriously, 7-15%?! Does this strike you as particularly INSANE for pharmacy schools to go that low to fill their classes??? Even unethical considering many of these will fail out or never pass the NAPLEX.

A 50% min comp PCAT requirement would go along way to reducing class sizes. It's not an arbitrary number, it represents taking only the top half of all potential applicants as a minimum.

Gawd, schools are just eroding our degree every year to line their own pockets.[/QUOTE


Which school is ranked 16?
 
I’m not saying they are outright lying. I think the people writing stuff on the Pearson website are not the statisticians who are doing the calculations to come up with the scores. Therefore, they are not fully understanding what they are writing about. I think they most likely had a deadline and they might have been understaffed, so they just wrote something for the heck of it. That’s more likely than me being wrong about this. People have deadlines all the time. People rush and do a half ass job of stuff all the time. Why would these Pearson website employees be any different?

(Lmao! Good thing this is via text because I can’t keep a straight face saying all this.)

Come to think of it, a bunch of lazy interns could just be copying and pasting the previous years description and no one notices that it needs to be updated. You might be on to something! :idea:
 
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The caliber of PCAT takers has likely dropped dramatically from the 2007-2011 to the 2011-2015 pools.

Therefore, anyone who took their PCAT July 2016 or later will have an inflated PCAT score.
 
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The caliber of PCAT takers has likely dropped dramatically from the 2007-2011 to the 2011-2015 pools.

Therefore, anyone who took their PCAT July 2016 or later will have an inflated PCAT score.
What makes you say that? I would be curious to know if Pierson keeps track of how many people take it each year and shares that info.

Obviously pharmacy school is less competitive but that doesn't automatically make the PCAT easier. It could just mean that schools are accepting 7 percenters instead of 70 percenters.

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I do remember in 2009 the PCAT had INSANE math questions. One that will forever burned in my mind was: "Integrate by parts ln(sin(2x))." Fortunately in 2010 the test makers came down to earth and I didn't have anything near as crazy as that.
 
Not to take away from your point, but all I saw was PAtoPharm at the low end and had a renewed faith in the PCAT.

Don't get too excited -- he was just using me as a hypothetical PCAT exam taker. I made over a 90th %ile composite score, despite not studying at all for the math section and having never taken a real calculus class (I literally guessed on almost every question on the math section).
 
I do remember in 2009 the PCAT had INSANE math questions. One that will forever burned in my mind was: "Integrate by parts ln(sin(2x))." Fortunately in 2010 the test makers came down to earth and I didn't have anything near as crazy as that.

You sure that was the question? There's no identity that would make that problem solvable without recourse to an integration table. Now, if it was sin (ln 2x), it's solvable by identities and it would have been a test of whether you knew them or not. Just did the math and then had my handy MATLAB run the same thing, and we both get the same very long expanded identity.

That level of math is way overkill for pharmacy school then and now. And by the time you get to that level in graduate school, no one that I knew solved those manually.
 
Leaving aside the one 7th percentile score for a second and focusing on the 50% cut off, one thing to keep in mind is that these percentiles exist on a bell curve. No one would say that a candidate in the 98th percentile is substantial better than the candidate in the 90th percentile; however, since those numbers occur at the edge of the bell curve, there may be a fairly large difference in actual scores between those two candidates. Although the difference between a person in the 46th percentile and a person in the 54th percentile may seem more meaningful, it actually represents a much smaller difference in performance compared to the first example. Tiny changes in score can make a huge difference in percentile rank if you are close to the mean.
Understanding and Interpreting Pharmacy College Admission Test Scores

In your opinion, is losing some of the better upper 40’s percentile candidates worth it to raise admission standards? A flat cut off certainly has the potential to elevate a worse candidate with a better (but not meaningfully better) PCAT score. I’m sure it would result in some cases of a person with years of tech experience, great gpa, 1000+ volunteer hours, and 48% on the PCAT being passed over for someone with no work or volunteer experience, average gpa, and 51% on the PCAT.
 
Don't get too excited -- he was just using me as a hypothetical PCAT exam taker. I made over a 90th %ile composite score, despite not studying at all for the math section and having never taken a real calculus class (I literally guessed on almost every question on the math section).

Cool story bro
 
Well allow me to google that for you. :)

Per PCAT website:

Your percentile rank scores are based on the performance of examinees in the current norm group. The current norm group is defined as all first-time examinees who took the test between July 2011 and January 2015. Your scaled scores are based on the number of live items that you answered correctly for each subtest. Each multiple-choice subtest is calculated separately.

So if the last 2 years of test takers have gone downhill we wouldn't see any inflation of their rank. It will take several cycles until the current test takers inflates the percentile ranks.


That's correct, however, it would be hard anyway due to the way cohorts change from time ahead. Remember all that an admission class happens once, I don't care about history to compare with years ago, I care about what my group is right now for recruitment. Even if there was a way to do so reliably (which not really), it's meaningless at this stage as what you get in the admission class is what you get.

I can actually say that my particular class year's numbers were far worse than @Monsterdaddy 's class (I have internal access to their admission portfolio as an Adcom alumni and to do some analysis), but for the ones in AZ, more of us are still in good practice than his class if he's the 2009 one. It's not really a matter of numbers as it's a difference of candidates where my class averaged in their upper 30s and were techs for at least a decade before admission whereas @Monsterdaddy 's class were closer to my personal admission profile and did not have that experience. However, if I had to compete for a residency, I would have much rather competed against his class than mine, because the clinical pharmacists out of my group really cared about it because there wasn't the $ in it; they just wanted it. That's a very different profile than all these new grads who do it to escape retail. Are they worse pharmacists? Who knows, but they certainly are not pharmacists who would have gone in during my generation as pharmacy wasn't the hot job as it was in the 08-12 profile.

That's why you see cultural differences toward the profession between @wagrxm2000 and @owlegrad as they are pretty stereotypical of their cohorts in why and what they get out of this business. That said, it a shame that with this cohort and the future ones, they won't even get a chance to have any job, much less a $hitty one. We're the last group of pharmacists who can complain and possibly escape.

To the original point, I actually could (not necessarily saying would) recruit from the 7% if I knew something else about the candidate. I know many members of my class scored terribly on that exam (even though the cutoff was more forgiving), but did ok on their Boards as the PCAT tests on general and not necessarily in-depth. There's no minimum cutoff for me on that exam even now as it is more a gauge of pool placement. If I could recruit far better students but have alternate reasons to consider, then it's fine. But on the other hand, I wouldn't admit my score in the PCAT as the sole criterion without other support. PCAT is used as placement and confirmatory not selection alone on most committees.
 
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I think you are correct. Which means the applicants are actually even worse than expected.

I can't be the only one interacting with potential applicants and current students am I? There are some really really dumb applicants I've met who got into pharmacy school. Someone here must have had interactions to back up my assessment in other places right?

The only people I hear saying they are going to be a pharmacist are typically people I consider unqualified to become a pharmacy technician.
 
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You sure that was the question? There's no identity that would make that problem solvable without recourse to an integration table. Now, if it was sin (ln 2x), it's solvable by identities and it would have been a test of whether you knew them or not. Just did the math and then had my handy MATLAB run the same thing, and we both get the same very long expanded identity.
So I had that question in one of the Pearson pretests so maybe it was from a 2008 exam. They provided answer keys so there was a solution that was doable. That pretest scared the crap out of me with only 2 weeks before my PCAT so I ran down to the local high school and grabbed every calc help book I could find LOL.

I think I had resolved that if I got anything like that (or some other crazy physics based question) the best strategy was to guess A and get back to it later if I had time (was a paper exam at that time).
 
So I had that question in one of the Pearson pretests so maybe it was from a 2008 exam. They provided answer keys so there was a solution that was doable. That pretest scared the crap out of me with only 2 weeks before my PCAT so I ran down to the local high school and grabbed every calc help book I could find LOL.

I think I had resolved that if I got anything like that (or some other crazy physics based question) the best strategy was to guess A and get back to it later if I had time (was a paper exam at that time).

Is it computerized now? When did that happen?
 
Sure, you can also misread prednisone and prednisolone. Details matter. And Monsterdaddy had already pointed out how scoring a 25% would not equal 25th percentile so really what is your defense for not knowing the deference? Really you are just proving the point that pharmacy schools do not have high enough standards. So good job on that front.

Awww, Owlegrad, give the poor dude a break, everyone knows that maths is hard!
 
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Awww, Owlegrad, give the poor dude a break, everyone knows that maths is hard!
Haha, true but I don't know why I was being such a dick about it though, something about ignoring the post above mine about how scores and percentile aren't the same must have triggered me I guess ;)

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The only people I hear saying they are going to be a pharmacist are typically people I consider unqualified to become a pharmacy technician.

When I first graduated and was working in retail back around 2013 one of my worst techs was applying to pharmacy school (I think after 3 years of undergrad) and was literally only applying to ones that didn't look at the PCAT. Now I know only a handful of
people that have mentioned wanting to go, I quickly mention the working conditions and chances of getting a job out of retail in 4-5 years (heck even full-time retail hours) coupled with increasing debt. Most seem to ignore me, oh well, at least they were warned.
 
When I first graduated and was working in retail back around 2013 one of my worst techs was applying to pharmacy school (I think after 3 years of undergrad) and was literally only applying to ones that didn't look at the PCAT. Now I know only a handful of
people that have mentioned wanting to go, I quickly mention the working conditions and chances of getting a job out of retail in 4-5 years (heck even full-time retail hours) coupled with increasing debt. Most seem to ignore me, oh well, at least they were warned.

As a humorous aside, I have to wonder if I would have fit the profile of one of those "bad" techs; I bet I would've. Needless to say, a job offer did not arise at the end of my first rotation I completed last year prior to dropping out. I wonder how common the whole get-a-job-offer-after-doing-well-during-a-rotation thing really is?

BTW, I'm surprised to hear you say something that negative about pharmacy (in response to the bolded portion). I seem to recall that you were somewhat surprised at how the job market had improved somewhat back during the summer, but maybe I'm thinking of someone else.
 
As a humorous aside, I have to wonder if I would have fit the profile of one of those "bad" techs; I bet I would've. Needless to say, a job offer did not arise at the end of my first rotation I completed last year prior to dropping out. I wonder how common the whole get-a-job-offer-after-doing-well-during-a-rotation thing really is?

BTW, I'm surprised to hear you say something that negative about pharmacy (in response to the bolded portion). I seem to recall that you were somewhat surprised at how the job market had improved somewhat back during the summer, but maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

Yes I am surprised that it hasn't hit the fan yet. I only imagine it's a few more years now
 
Yes I am surprised that it hasn't hit the fan yet. I only imagine it's a few more years now

So I take it that the somewhat improved BLS stats aren't swaying your opinion?

BTW, I wonder which (if any) of the pharmacy schools in GA will be the first to reduce their class sizes and/or close.
 
So I take it that the somewhat improved BLS stats aren't swaying your opinion?

BTW, I wonder which (if any) of the pharmacy schools in GA will be the first to reduce their class sizes and/or close.

Just because there may be job growth (albeit pretty abysmal) there are way too many graduates for that to make a dent in my eyes. I am definitely not an optimist of the job market for the forseeable future and most here aren't (and that's why the majority advised you not to go to pharmacy school).
 
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