Ph.D. working outside field?

[TiptoeConqueror]

I don't know if this question has been asked but does anyone know of a clinical psychologist who no longer practices in the field or has a very different business to generate additional income in addition to clinical psych work? I'm not talking about people who have private practices in addition to working for the VA or an AMC, but maybe something completely unrelated.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Tons of folks here do property investment and other things for revenue.

 

[erg923]

I don't know if this question has been asked but does anyone know of a clinical psychologist who no longer practices in the field or has a very different business to generate additional income in addition to clinical psych work? I'm not talking about people who have private practices in addition to working for the VA or an AMC, but maybe something completely unrelated.

I recently networked with some people who were psychologists in a previous life. One started a restaurant and the other went to culinary school (met them both in same place...obviously).

If an event ever occurred where my only immediate option for money/employment was to work for the local CMH system here, I would just move to something else entirely. If I was going to work 50-60k, I would just rather work for the post office or on an Assembly line at Ford. You can move up from there significantly. In the local CMH system, I think some of the more senior psychologists and admins make 90k. Benefits are marginal, at best.

 

[PsychPhDone]

I don't know if this question has been asked but does anyone know of a clinical psychologist who no longer practices in the field or has a very different business to generate additional income in addition to clinical psych work? I'm not talking about people who have private practices in addition to working for the VA or an AMC, but maybe something completely unrelated.

I know several who do consulting. Healthcare systems and tech. Also some in pharma.

 

[PsyDr]

Arguably, I’m one. Haven’t billed for clinician services in like 4 years or so. Have done pro bono services regularly.

Like any business: you gotta figure out what you have to offer that produces money, find a gap in the market, do a market analysis, etc.

I’ve seen most psychologists fail to take the demand into account, before discussing what they can supply.

In other words, saying “I can provide all these neat services!” first, instead of describing the quantifiable benefit for others first.

It’s a big world out there. Tons of opportunities.

 

[deleted343839]

I know several people who made the jump pretty seamlessly into the pharmaceutical industry.

 

[Ollie123]

I guess it depends how you define "unrelated" but I know people in:
mHealth/Tech
General Data Science
Health Insurance
Pharma

I'm not sure I would call any of these unrelated, we just tend to pigeonhole ourselves in graduate school.

No one gets a degree in "Health insurance" - you get a degree in something that allows you to develop useful skills/knowledge and move into it. This is something I am really just starting to see universities do a good job of clarifying.

 

[WisNeuro]

So what you are saying is there are options when my license gets revoked for not writing long enough progress notes, not creating tedious treatment plans, or not mailing a termination letter after the third no show?

Subtext: I'm getting sorta sick of all the covering our assess we have to do...

Get an assistant to do this kind of stuff for you, yo.

 

[PsyDr]

So what you are saying is there are options when my license gets revoked for not writing long enough progress notes, not creating tedious treatment plans, or not mailing a termination letter after the third no show?

Subtext: I'm getting sorta sick of all the covering our assess we have to do...

There are many other types of tedium.

For example: Five hr long pharma meeting where inter-rater reliability's impact on effect size is the only thing discussed.

 

[Groupthink]

How do people even get into other businesses? Erg's post is giving me a reaction because I make $60k as a Psychologist and it's very frustrating.

I was never given those business skills growing up. I have no idea where to learn them or how to know what my niche is, other than if I went back to college or read a few books. Even then, no idea where to start.

I am a tech and IT whiz and could do something there but every job seems to be full time and require a degree in a related field, despite managing the servers for two clinics' databases.

Idk, I'm just frustrated with how low paying Psychology is and I feel trapped. I need a higher income but I can't take on more clients for PP (I'm already seeing 30 a week and feel burnt out).

 

[ClinicalTears]

I know several people who made the jump pretty seamlessly into the pharmaceutical industry.

What do they do in the pharmaceutical industry?

I'd be interested in this lol

 

[Ollie123]

Have credentials for an AMC? I don't know anyone hired recently who started below 80k (licensed). Which isn't overwhelmingly amazing, but sounds like it would be better.

What peripheral skills do you have (management, statistics, etc.)?

Track record with publications/grants/writing? I know some folks in medical writing who do quite well.

Tons of opportunities out there, just depends what direction you want to go.

 

[Groupthink]

Have credentials for an AMC? I don't know anyone hired recently who started below 80k (licensed). Which isn't overwhelmingly amazing, but sounds like it would be better.

What peripheral skills do you have (management, statistics, etc.)?

Track record with publications/grants/writing? I know some folks in medical writing who do quite well.

Tons of opportunities out there, just depends what direction you want to go.

AMC meaning American Medical Center? I'm sure my skills translate, but all my practica, internship, and postdoc were CMHCs and UCCs. I have no other skills because I went straight from college to my doc program. I'm 30, so I'm quite young and inexperienced anywhere outside of my profession.

 

[WisNeuro]

How do people even get into other businesses? Erg's post is giving me a reaction because I make $60k as a Psychologist and it's very frustrating.

Is your overhead exorbitantly high? Because you are getting a raw deal if you are grossing 60k with a 30hr/week caseload.

 

[Groupthink]

Is your overhead exorbitantly high? Because you are getting a raw deal if you are grossing 60k with a 30hr/week caseload.

No. I live in a low CoL area and this seems to be the best salary I can find around here. People in PP make more but after overhead and insurance and all that it'd end up being about the same.

Honestly the low salary is killing my motivation for the field. I trained in a city where all my supervisors were making a ton of money between their administrator jobs and PP on the side. I can't afford to move to an urban area. I'm just frustrated with this quality of life because I'm making below the median. Somethings got to change!

 

[Ollie123]

AMC meaning American Medical Center? I'm sure my skills translate, but all my practica, internship, and postdoc were CMHCs and UCCs. I have no other skills because I went straight from college to my doc program. I'm 30, so I'm quite young and inexperienced anywhere outside of my profession.

Academic Medical Center - university-affiliated hospital.

By other skills I don't necessarily mean things from completely different fields, but things that many/most will learn within a program. If literally the only thing you learned was assessment/therapy, its going to be a lot harder but that doesn't describe many graduate students I know. Did you work in a lab? What kind of work did they do? Have you managed RAs? Run clinical trials?

 

[WisNeuro]

Got a VA nearby? It's not the best, but it's way better than what you're at. Most of my VA colleagues at a similar number of years out of training are in the 92-98 range.

 

[Groupthink]

Academic Medical Center - university-affiliated hospital.

By other skills I don't necessarily mean things from completely different fields, but things that many/most will learn within a program. If literally the only thing you learned was assessment/therapy, its going to be a lot harder but that doesn't describe many graduate students I know. Did you work in a lab? What kind of work did they do? Have you managed RAs? Run clinical trials?

I've published some studies on attachment theory, the AAI, and it's applicability in understanding the working alliance. But tbh, I've been out of publishing for a few years now, and if I had to do research again I'd hate everything. It's just not how I think. So yes, I'm just left with therapy and assessment.

In fact I wish I could just do straight assessment! Had applied to a few positions for this but never got a callback.

 

[Ollie123]

Restricting things to that degree is definitely going to hurt you, especially since it sounds like you focused your experiences heavily in the sectors that traditionally have the lowest pay. Most of the folks I know moving into other fields had quite extensive research portfolios and skills they could drawn on from that world. Obviously if all you have to offer and all you are interested in doing is things that fit within the confines of traditional "clinician" roles...you are going to be limited to those roles. Unless you want to start over with something truly unrelated (e.g. start a bed and breakfast).

Do you have experience supervising? That might provide an "in" in some contexts. Are you geographically flexible? If you are willing to move to some absolute-middle-of-nowhere CBOC, I imagine that would make the VA much easier to break into.

 

[Groupthink]

Don't get me wrong, I tried my darndest to get prac experiences elsewhere, but it didn't pan out for several years in a row. Unfortunate. I think it was my relative life inexperience and immaturity, as I was substantially younger than most of my cohort so they nabbed the local VA/hospital positions. But who knows, really.

I dream about starting over.

I am a prac supervisor currently and enjoy the work. I guess I'm flexible, but honestly I've given way too much to this profession already. To have to move to the middle of nowhere just for a job? That is ludicrous and I will say goodbye to the field if push came to shove for that. Seems like other professions have it way easier.

Sorry to be stonewalling so much, it's just that I'm done making compromises with the field.

 

[Ollie123]

Fine to be done making compromises, just trying to brainstorm options. It does seem like you have backed yourself into a corner in some ways (or your program did). If you aren't willing/able to be flexible on where you go or what it is you do as part of the job, that's fine but I think it is important to realize that is also going to make it incredibly difficult to break out of your present circumstances. I think it is just a question of what is most important to you and how quickly you want the change to happen.

I suggested middle-of-nowhere as a bit of a shortcut. If you are willing to ride out the present job for a few years, you can certainly play the long game. I'm not entirely clear what setting you are currently in, but I'd be looking for any options to grow professionally. Strategically taking on additional responsibilities with the goal of building your CV. If you are in a UCC and really want to move to a VA...start a group for student vets, run workshops on "balancing school work with ROTC commitments", etc. If you currently supervise, see if you can become "practicum coordinator" of sorts (if such a thing exists) - that might help you move into an administrative-type role at the next position, etc. These are just examples - obviously depends on your situation and goals.

Or just keep throwing applications out there constantly and hope something sticks eventually. Mostly, I think its important not to be passive. It sounds like you want a change ASAP and it also sounds like you are unusually limited for a psychologist in terms of skills you have and also quite limited in what you are willing to do. That's a tough position to be in and not one that is likely to change on its own - something has to give.

 

[PsyDr]

@Groupthink

You explore your own interests, read a lot, attend network stuff, subscribe to trade stuff, etc. Keep in mind that this is a business and you need to understand how money is made in these areas and what the market is worth. Two basic types of ways to make money: making a product or providing a service. In general, it is much harder to break into very established industries. For example, it is unlikely that you are going to revolutionize steel production. Eventually, you learn enough to have an idea. Or you have associated with the professional network long enough that someone who has an idea invites you in.

Do not try to use theory based services. The world has largely progressed beyond this skill set. For example, malls provide free wifi so that they can geographically track shoppers, see how long the shoppers stop by a display, store, etc. This is one of the ways marketing is done now. If you showed up and pitched some theoretical ideas about cognitive dissonance, you'd never be hired.

 

[deleted343839]

What do they do in the pharmaceutical industry?

I'd be interested in this lol

Clinical trial scientist positions mainly. I know one who went on to become a statistician. I believe I have heard of a psychologist becoming a medical science liaison also. There's a whole world of pretty decent jobs in pharma, especially if you don't mind traveling.

 

[Pragma]

There's a whole world of pretty decent jobs in pharma, especially if you don't mind traveling.

Or reaving souls!

I couldn’t resist...

 

[deleted343839]

Or reaving souls!

I couldn’t resist...

That too. But emerging from PhD training can make one feel a bit mercenary. Or so I've heard.