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Pharmacist vs. Doctor
Started by worriedperiod
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I stumbled upon this forum by googleing "pharmacist investments." To answer your question, a physician would come out on top financially. Their earning potential is much more than a pharmacist.
I'm a pharmacist, I work retail full time and hospital per diem in Central CA. I'm grossing a little over 200k/yr, most of this is from working 12h/day. You can count me as being dissatisfied with being a pharmacist.
I'm a pharmacist, I work retail full time and hospital per diem in Central CA. I'm grossing a little over 200k/yr, most of this is from working 12h/day. You can count me as being dissatisfied with being a pharmacist.
I know little about the Pharm field (EM Physician here), but it was my understanding that the 'big bucks' comes from owning you own store and dabbling in more than just the drugs...
Its also my understanding that the above has become increasingly difficult and its a fulltime job running a knick knack store on top of running the pharmacy...
Obviously stores like CVS, Walgreens, etc has put much pressure on the 'mom and pop' pharmacy shops...I am sure that makes them less profitable as well..
Its also my understanding that the above has become increasingly difficult and its a fulltime job running a knick knack store on top of running the pharmacy...
Obviously stores like CVS, Walgreens, etc has put much pressure on the 'mom and pop' pharmacy shops...I am sure that makes them less profitable as well..
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It is hard to make money as an independent. You need at least 100 scripts a day to be profitable. The PBMs are constantly trying to decrease reimbursement. It isn't uncommon to lose money on filling certain rxs. Our filling reimbursement averages less than $5 per rx though the industry estimates the average fixed cost of filling a rx is $8-$10. To survive, you gotta have a gimmick.
My wife is a pharmacist, I'm an EM doctor.
We both went straight through without delay, no wasted year here or there. Graduated high school together at 18, graduated undergrad at 22, graduated med school and pharm school at age 26.
As I turn 30 and finishing up residency - I can assure you that MD beats PharmD any day and all day.
Why don't you look at the job market for pharmacists in the current economic climate? Times are tough and MANY cannot find full time positions in desirable locations. My brother is also a PharmD and he had to move out of state to find a job since there were none in Chicagoland. NONE.
No... I'm not trying to slam the pharmacist profession because my wife is one and we are lucky to be in the shoes we are in. But you cannot compare it to the income potential of an MD (or DO).
And by the way - a pharmacist at 120K/year cannot buy an 800K house. And MD making 400K/year can. So your last point is meaningless because it is impossible.
Most pharmacists I know are not. If you're in retail - you usually hate your job. Go to the pharmacy forum and check out the prevailing threads on how they want to shoot their faces off with regards to working retail.
It's sad, I know.
I find these types of discussions interesting, but ultimately meaningless because there are simply too many variables to consider. The reality is that most people in these professions are smart enough to have already pondered the advantages of each career path and made the decision based on very personal reasons. If you want to know the average lifetime earning potential of an average pharmacist vs that of an average physician, then it is fairly easy to show that the physician will have an advantage.
Since averages are fairly meaningless in this discussion, I will talk about my personal situation and why I chose pharmacy over medicine (having enough intellectual talent to pursue either option). I am currently 27 y/o and make a salary of 155k/yr as a retail pharmacist being 2.5 years out of school. While I enjoy heathcare, my true passion is finance and thus knew that the eariler earnings of a pharmacist would benefit me greatly. When I am 32 (the age at which most specialists are just starting to earn respectable salaries) I will have enough money to retire comfortably. This will be achieved though a combination of extreme frugality and powerful investment returns over time. I have enough to retire now, though I would like to expand my current standard of living by a significant margin, hence the additional five years.
My situation is somewhat of an oddity, but so is everyone's. No one will line up with averages and they will place different values on various aspects of a chosen career path (job satisfaction, total lifetime salary, time investment etc) and thus will form their decisions based on an incalculable set of variables. As for the $800,000 house thing, my house is only valued at 285,000 (brand new 3,500 sqft in low CoL area) but I build and sell houses worth 1.6 - 1.8m to people who go for that sort of thing.
Since averages are fairly meaningless in this discussion, I will talk about my personal situation and why I chose pharmacy over medicine (having enough intellectual talent to pursue either option). I am currently 27 y/o and make a salary of 155k/yr as a retail pharmacist being 2.5 years out of school. While I enjoy heathcare, my true passion is finance and thus knew that the eariler earnings of a pharmacist would benefit me greatly. When I am 32 (the age at which most specialists are just starting to earn respectable salaries) I will have enough money to retire comfortably. This will be achieved though a combination of extreme frugality and powerful investment returns over time. I have enough to retire now, though I would like to expand my current standard of living by a significant margin, hence the additional five years.
My situation is somewhat of an oddity, but so is everyone's. No one will line up with averages and they will place different values on various aspects of a chosen career path (job satisfaction, total lifetime salary, time investment etc) and thus will form their decisions based on an incalculable set of variables. As for the $800,000 house thing, my house is only valued at 285,000 (brand new 3,500 sqft in low CoL area) but I build and sell houses worth 1.6 - 1.8m to people who go for that sort of thing.
I'm curious. How do you have enough to retire on working from age 25 to age 32 at 155K/yr?
How is it that fifty years ago a single income family could support a household and retire with relative comfort at age 55? In modern times, people have thought it appropriate to substitute money for ability and time, thus making them financially poor while not increasing standard of living to a significant degree. To be more specific to the topic, as a child I saved/invested most of my money and thus had over 100k of net worth before entering college. As an adult, I live on less than 20k/yr post tax dollars, yet have a standard of living much higher than most of my colleagues.
I can have such a standard of living on little money because I understand the value of my time. For most people, the value of their time is exactly equal to their hourly salary subtracted by passive expenses (ie interest), and thus when they spend more money for time than it is worth, they are enacting a negatively profitable business contract. I have found ways to greatly increase the value of my time by the application of skills for cost avoidance and investment strategy for increased income. I did state that my salary is 155,000/yr, however my actual income is significantly higher and generated through mostly "passive" means. When my time is passively worth what I need to survive at my desired standard, I will be able to retire.
I am not talking about these things to brag about my personal situation, what I want is for all healthcare professionals to become financially strong and independent, and thus free to provide exceptional care without being slaves to those who sign their paychecks. I am among the retail pharmacists who dislike their jobs, but only in the extent that, at present, the passive value of my time is not high enough to afford my desired standard of living, and thus am required to add active value of time via employment. When I am able to shed that obligation, no work effort becomes bothersome because I will be free to walk away.
Understood. But just make sure your initial post does not mislead those who are thinking that they can retire as a typical pharmacist after 7 years of work. Things don't typically work that way.
That is crazy. I don't know of many gas people who can pull that off properly. Most gas people I know are getting jobs close to 350K but they are being worked for it - meaning 60h/wk. If you can do 60h/wk + weekends, you are a machine.
They will work you for that 500K.
Not to boast, but I am probably what you would term a "machine."
I am willing to bust my ass for that 500K. Such a pretty number.
Some poster on this very site made 612K last year in gas.
It is a pretty number. 👍
If I busted my butt, I'd break that mark also. But I have my limits.
Ha. To each his own.
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Yep.
No point in earning over $600K working 60h a week when I can nearly hit $400K working 40h a week. I'd rather have time after a certain threshold of income is met. I don't find the need to bust my butt to earn an income I can't sustain for more than a few years.
There's no point in trying to sustain an income that's not physically sustainable for years. When you earn X amount per year, your expenses begin to creep up and you may find yourself not being able to scale back your hours because your expenses were based off of a high X salary.
That's just me. I'm not in this race to earn the most money, I'm here to do earn a good living but also be able to live it.
First time in the SDN, but I came across this post and wanted to add my experiences.
For the most part MD (DO) will earn more over the course of their career than a PharmD (BS pharmacy). But the majority of physicians works more than 40hrs/wk and the majority of pharmacists do not.
My lifelong friend is a cardiologist in southern California and she now earns 300K/yr 4 years out of fellowship. The problem she has experienced was the ballooned tuition loan that started at around 200k that is now almost 400k. So she is now 36 with debt equal to that of a respectable home.
My wife and I are both pharmacists. My wife opened her own independent pharmacy (from scratch) eight years ago. We did have to forgo salary for her for the first year and a half to complete an early loan payoff. But at this point we have now been able to open two other pharmacies. We now both pay ourselves at 160k/yr each, with our net profits (after reinvestments for improvements, etc.) move between 500-650k annually.
Also, our school loans were paid off within the first two years, using one salary to pay off the loans. I made 110k first year out. I'm not sure where FT pharmacists in retail are making less than 100k a year. It may be that the national average salary includes hospital pharmacists who make quite a bit less or that I am just lucky to live in the region I do.
Now, I will absolutely agree that this is unique, and thus my initial MD>PharmD in pay.
I know that that some physicians go into business as small specialty groups, but the majority don't. Pharmacists who decide to go into independent ownership CAN (not WILL) earn a great deal, but with great sacrifice at first...kinda like becoming a physician.
As far as enjoying work, we love our work, but we have moved to heavily deal with MTM and other cognitive billing type services that are becoming increasingly covered by private insurers, which definitely increases the satisfaction. And if we ever decide we don't like it...we have 500k/yr to just manage the pharmacies, or hire someone and delve into other career opportunities.
A suggestion for any pharmacist who wants to open their own pharmacy, having a strong business background is extremely helpful. I earned my MBA with my PharmD and we would not be as successful without the knowledge I gained from the MBA program. You could outsource or use consultants but they quickly become $$$, and huge capital is not something you have in the early stages when key business decisions make or break you.
Ultimately, it is my opinion that people should do what they love. Becoming a physician or a pharmacist can be a great choice for certain people. Pharmacists can get a bad wrap for just being pill pushers and physicians can get a bad wrap for having huge egos and being disconnected from their patients. In my professional experience most physicians and pharmacists in my area have taken to the the team-based approach to patient care, where ego control is a must.
Also, if people are so interested in attaining some high salary, why go into med or pharm school? 🙂 People that are smart enough to get into these schools would rule the business world. And ruling the business world earns a lot higher income than ruling the clinical health care one with the same dedication and time commitment.
Sorry for the long comment. 🙂
For the most part MD (DO) will earn more over the course of their career than a PharmD (BS pharmacy). But the majority of physicians works more than 40hrs/wk and the majority of pharmacists do not.
My lifelong friend is a cardiologist in southern California and she now earns 300K/yr 4 years out of fellowship. The problem she has experienced was the ballooned tuition loan that started at around 200k that is now almost 400k. So she is now 36 with debt equal to that of a respectable home.
My wife and I are both pharmacists. My wife opened her own independent pharmacy (from scratch) eight years ago. We did have to forgo salary for her for the first year and a half to complete an early loan payoff. But at this point we have now been able to open two other pharmacies. We now both pay ourselves at 160k/yr each, with our net profits (after reinvestments for improvements, etc.) move between 500-650k annually.
Also, our school loans were paid off within the first two years, using one salary to pay off the loans. I made 110k first year out. I'm not sure where FT pharmacists in retail are making less than 100k a year. It may be that the national average salary includes hospital pharmacists who make quite a bit less or that I am just lucky to live in the region I do.
Now, I will absolutely agree that this is unique, and thus my initial MD>PharmD in pay.
I know that that some physicians go into business as small specialty groups, but the majority don't. Pharmacists who decide to go into independent ownership CAN (not WILL) earn a great deal, but with great sacrifice at first...kinda like becoming a physician.
As far as enjoying work, we love our work, but we have moved to heavily deal with MTM and other cognitive billing type services that are becoming increasingly covered by private insurers, which definitely increases the satisfaction. And if we ever decide we don't like it...we have 500k/yr to just manage the pharmacies, or hire someone and delve into other career opportunities.
A suggestion for any pharmacist who wants to open their own pharmacy, having a strong business background is extremely helpful. I earned my MBA with my PharmD and we would not be as successful without the knowledge I gained from the MBA program. You could outsource or use consultants but they quickly become $$$, and huge capital is not something you have in the early stages when key business decisions make or break you.
Ultimately, it is my opinion that people should do what they love. Becoming a physician or a pharmacist can be a great choice for certain people. Pharmacists can get a bad wrap for just being pill pushers and physicians can get a bad wrap for having huge egos and being disconnected from their patients. In my professional experience most physicians and pharmacists in my area have taken to the the team-based approach to patient care, where ego control is a must.
Also, if people are so interested in attaining some high salary, why go into med or pharm school? 🙂 People that are smart enough to get into these schools would rule the business world. And ruling the business world earns a lot higher income than ruling the clinical health care one with the same dedication and time commitment.
Sorry for the long comment. 🙂
Intrigued by this 3 year old thread and thought I'd post.
There is a compounding pharmacy near my home of which the store probably brings in a little over 2 million a year before overhead.
He averages about 125 Rxs a day, and due to the way insurance currently bills his establishment, they don't audit on anything less than $100. They do a lot of veterinary meds there, of which the prices are exorbitant (like $60 bucks for less than a gram of active med), and they also make money on shipping due to contracting. Not exactly the most ethical billing practices, but it does make a pretty penny. The place is also only open 40 hours a week, as opposed to the 80-90 hours a week of a normal pharmacy.
There is a compounding pharmacy near my home of which the store probably brings in a little over 2 million a year before overhead.
He averages about 125 Rxs a day, and due to the way insurance currently bills his establishment, they don't audit on anything less than $100. They do a lot of veterinary meds there, of which the prices are exorbitant (like $60 bucks for less than a gram of active med), and they also make money on shipping due to contracting. Not exactly the most ethical billing practices, but it does make a pretty penny. The place is also only open 40 hours a week, as opposed to the 80-90 hours a week of a normal pharmacy.
Hey thanks everybody for such important information.
Thanks
Thanks
I saw a website that compared a doctor's earnings vs. FedEx worker's income. Mathematically over the course of a lifetime with 8% interest rate, both make same amount (if FedEx worker saved all income from age 22-32 and invested it at 8%, since docs make negative income during those years). But we can all agree in the real world docs live better. Its because most of your expenses come later on in life (kids, college for kids, house, alimony, second wedding etc ). Also because people usually spend their money and not save it. Sure pharmacists make more in early years, but they'll also end up spending it. Your "needs" grow in proportion to your income.
I always dreamed of becoming a doctor, but due to my financial situation I was not able to complete the education. So ended up in Having a masters in pharmacy degree. Now I am married, my husband works in software industry. He makes around 175k, He wants me to go and study get my dream. I want to know where I can start? for me money is not the issue or perks. It is about my and my husband ambition to see me as a doctor
Very nice information. thanks for the answers.
I am 28 years old soon to be 29 in july. I was a pharmacy student year 1 (P1) last year. I had to take a leave of absence, because my father got very sick, and I had to take care of him, he eventually passed away last November due to pulmonary fibrosis at age of 54, terrible disease.
Now, I have to make the decision to go back to P1 at my pharmacy school. However, I have considered becoming an MD, and eventually a pulmonologist. I am worried about job security, as you guys know, pharmacy schools are popping everywhere, and jobs are EXTREMELY hard to get. So, my anxiety arises from the bleak future of pharmacy. And the opportunity that I might have helping people more in depth related to pulmonary diseases. By the way my grandmother died, 4 months later of pulmonary fibrosis after his son (my father) died, she was 77. I definitely believe (and data shows) that there is a genetic component. Heck, I have even thought about becoming a Ph.D and do research on this subject so this terrible disease can be at least treat it with out transplant at least.
What do you guys think? Money and career wise? Any input from pulmonologists? pharmacists? Ph.D?
Thanks in advance.
I am 28 years old soon to be 29 in july. I was a pharmacy student year 1 (P1) last year. I had to take a leave of absence, because my father got very sick, and I had to take care of him, he eventually passed away last November due to pulmonary fibrosis at age of 54, terrible disease.
Now, I have to make the decision to go back to P1 at my pharmacy school. However, I have considered becoming an MD, and eventually a pulmonologist. I am worried about job security, as you guys know, pharmacy schools are popping everywhere, and jobs are EXTREMELY hard to get. So, my anxiety arises from the bleak future of pharmacy. And the opportunity that I might have helping people more in depth related to pulmonary diseases. By the way my grandmother died, 4 months later of pulmonary fibrosis after his son (my father) died, she was 77. I definitely believe (and data shows) that there is a genetic component. Heck, I have even thought about becoming a Ph.D and do research on this subject so this terrible disease can be at least treat it with out transplant at least.
What do you guys think? Money and career wise? Any input from pulmonologists? pharmacists? Ph.D?
Thanks in advance.
I am a recent med school graduate at 29. And while I love medicine, If I had to start all over again now I would do something else. You forget that its another 5+years after you are done with school to do Pulm. That puts you in your 40s before you make a red cent. As I have gotten older I have found that there is a lot more to life than what you do for a job and how much money you make. Try to find that balance and you will be happier.
Also, everyone I have ever known that got into medicine because of a personal experience with disease has been rather letdown. Do medicine for the right reasons, not because someone you love was sick.
All that said Medicine>Pharm if you are young enough to get through it.
DanZman
Also, everyone I have ever known that got into medicine because of a personal experience with disease has been rather letdown. Do medicine for the right reasons, not because someone you love was sick.
All that said Medicine>Pharm if you are young enough to get through it.
DanZman
Yes, it's not even close. You will be very secure and can choose to do something else much earlier if you choose medicine>pharm.
It really depends on how much you work as well. As a moonlighting resident, I can pull over 100k total.
What's the salary of a FedEx worker? It must be super high by your reasoning. At 28 and in residency, I may pull in 100k. Last year (age 27), I made 48k in residency.
The FedEx worker has 5 years on me by your math and less debt (I went to a cheap public med school). Rough calculations will put me above this FedEx guy after 2 years post-residency.
It was a comparison between delayed income and accumulated student debt of a physician v. a UPS employee who works the same number of hours as a physician:
http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html
Ok, I'm sorry but I had to chime in. Unless there is more to the story, (family money, etc.) it is impossible or at best, utterly *****ic, to purchase a 1.6m dollar home on the salary of 2 pharmacists. Earlier people cited 120k as a high salary for pharmacists for a grand total of 240k. That becomes 190k after taxes or ~15.8k per month. The mortage, utility bills, property taxes, etc. for the home are easily over 10k.
But then again, banks approving people for homes over 5 times their annual income are the reason for this housing mess...
The problem is, danzman, you're a young guy that never did much of anything prior to medical school. The 29 year old will be 33 when they graduate then 37 once done with pulm [being paid ~40k along the way too]... not too bad for a great career that they can do till 70.
While I don't doubt that medicine is a huge commitment, and they earn every cent, doctors tend to act as though they're the only ones sweating. I put in 100hrs+ per week for 42k as a soldier. Then I worked as a paramedic as a civilian 60hrs per week for 10.50 an hour. It wasn't that bad but most likely worse working conditions and much worse pay than doctors but a lot of stress and hours too. This is not uncommon among people I know that work in other professions such as my friend who is an engineer who works 70hr weeks when projects are ramping up who is then fired at it's completion because the work is gone. That is the real world - not SDN where everyone is comparing the advantages of a 100k salary over a 200k salary + delay. There is no balance in todays economy unless you work in entry level easily replaceable j-o-bs.
I question your perspective but can understand how you may feel that the grass is greener when medicine is all you've ever done. Let me tell you that the grass isn't and you made a good choice.
While I don't doubt that medicine is a huge commitment, and they earn every cent, doctors tend to act as though they're the only ones sweating. I put in 100hrs+ per week for 42k as a soldier. Then I worked as a paramedic as a civilian 60hrs per week for 10.50 an hour. It wasn't that bad but most likely worse working conditions and much worse pay than doctors but a lot of stress and hours too. This is not uncommon among people I know that work in other professions such as my friend who is an engineer who works 70hr weeks when projects are ramping up who is then fired at it's completion because the work is gone. That is the real world - not SDN where everyone is comparing the advantages of a 100k salary over a 200k salary + delay. There is no balance in todays economy unless you work in entry level easily replaceable j-o-bs.
I question your perspective but can understand how you may feel that the grass is greener when medicine is all you've ever done. Let me tell you that the grass isn't and you made a good choice.
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8% ROI is generous. The ROI for the stock market for the last decade has been negative and for many other forms of investment, the returns have not been so great. 8% is a holdover from the 80s and 90s when the stock market did perform at that level. Since the dotcom bust, the stock market has been crazy volatile. We never really recovered from that bust and then 9-11 hit, which depressed markets even further. Just when we recovered from that, the housing bubble burst and basically shaved 25-50% off everyone's net worth.
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Nonsense.
I had quite a nice career before medicine where I worked in a physically demanding job around 55hr per wk for 35K and loved it. No one said anything about how bad us poor doctors have it. I certainly understand that many, many, work much harder than I did/do, for much, much less.
But thats not the point. The question that I was answering was something along the lines of "is it worth it, at 29, to drop out of pharm school and go to med school" No one can answer that question, but I simply stated that for me, if I had to do it all over again, I don't think that I would make the switch.
Life is about making decisions and then dealing with the ramifications of them. I feel that for me, medicine was a good career choice, but there are certainly things about it that no pre-med can understand until they have slogged through it. I can't think of another career that offers as much stability and guaranteed income as being a US physician. As such, I think its a great career, and certainly better than digging ditches.
But ya gotta understand, this aint just a job. It is a lifestyle that can and will permiate itself into every inch of your life. And certainly many fields of medicine are "worse" at that then others (surgery, cards IM etc'). I look at the careers that my high school and college buddies have now and none of them are defined by it. Even the laweyers and pharmicists are defined by their kids or their hobbies etc'. Many of them work long and hard hours, but they are just jobs to them. Medicine, almost by default, becomes a major force in one's life and its not one that can easily be walked away from.
I owe over 300K in student loans. Think about that for a second. I will, for the next 20yrs, have a second mortgage payment every single month. There was a girl in my class with over 500K. Just how on earth can that be justified? Good old market economics at work. Huge number of people want to be docs and will pay whatever it takes to impress mommy and daddy, government will loan anyone with a pulse the cash=unopposed increases in tuition. In the end, I will pay it all off, just like everyone else, but you certainly must admit that its something to think about. And starting down the road of life at 40 is certainly something to think about. As a group, physicians are the best at delayed gratification. You have to understand that not everyone is willing to put off kids, vacations, cars, and houses until they are 35-40. I am, but not everyone is. My wife however, is coming to the end of her rope at being married to a poor student with nothing.
Finally, lets not forget the logical falocy of what you are talking about. This is America, and you and I have the unbelevable luxury of being able to do almost anything we want for a job. And while I may never make it in the NBA, or hit a ball out of yankee stadium, I can go to college and learn anything I want. You and I can train in essentially any field we desire and have at least as good of a chance as the next guy at getting a job. And just as some people choose to become high school teachers or marines or car mechanics, some choose to become engineers, dentists, and brain surgeons. Nothing wrong with any of that. But five seconds on google will let you know what jobs make more money and have more career satisfaction. Life is about making choices and finding a way to be happy with them.
Sensible physician will choose high paying specialty @ $250k-450k/year salary assuming 35 years of working life. Life time income is $8.7M-15M NOT adjusted to inflation. That makes student 300k-500k loan like a chump change to me.
I hope that girl is not going into pediatrics making $120k. Heck, if I own 500k, live like a hermit for 5 years, bunker up with roommate and spend only $15k/year (right now, I am only spending $12k/year btw), and kill the loan. But, of course most people will choose "I deserve this; I am a doctor now" and live like a king start making babies and buying $1M house and carrying that loan for years on end.
But this assumes that med students can somehow just choose to go into a high paying field. When you look at physician compensation there is nearly a solid line that separates the lower from the higher paying jobs. As an example, most Peds, FM, General IM, and Psych docs can make between 150-200K in the right market and with the right schedule. These are by far the least competitive fields in medicine and are by far what most med students go into. If you talk about high paying fields like cards, ortho, or derm, these fields are absolutely cutthroat to get into, and maybe only 1 or 2 of each class will get into them. This brings us to another common mistake people make about med school. They tend the think that just because they can get into med school, they will be able to do whatever they want. This aint the truth. The vast majority of students go into FM, IM, Peds, or gen surg. There is a reason why Derm is so competitive.
I think you and I are saying the same thing. Sure, anyone can put off their life until they are in their mid 30s to 40s but you gotta decide if you are willing to do it. And remember, you may be able to spend 15k a year now and live comfortably, but someday you will want a 200K house, and a 20K car. Million dollar houses are for old rich people. But I think you forget just how much taxes and interest will eat away at your cash.
If I had to be a pharmacist I'd probably quit my job after about 8 minutes from the sheer boredom of it, and then I'd be saddled with a quarter million in debt and no way to pay it off. In medicine at least there are career opportunities that will stay interesting for long enough for me to get close to paying off my debt.
At the end of the day, though, I'm glad there are people out there who want to be pharmacists, because it means I don't have to be one. So if you want to be a pharmacist, go be a pharmacist and don't let anyone on these forums tell you otherwise.
At the end of the day, though, I'm glad there are people out there who want to be pharmacists, because it means I don't have to be one. So if you want to be a pharmacist, go be a pharmacist and don't let anyone on these forums tell you otherwise.
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Thanks for the reply, I just totally forgot about it.
Thanks to all for the replies...👍
This thread is classic....
Pharmacy can be quite interesting but I think its very much based on the individual and how curious they are. I can agree that some aspects of pharmacy leaves much to be desired intellectually but there is always something for everyone even though it may not be as sexy as medicine. As for debt, it's all relative. There is an increase propensity (sometimes mandatory) to work while in school which can offset some of the cost of education. For myself, I went to a 3-year accelerated program (tuition was 20-25k/year - probably one of the cheapest schools in the country) and came out with under 75k/3years (worked as an intern and tutor while in school ~ covered living expenses).
At the start of medical school, I did a comparison of where I would be financially as a pharmacist vs. physician. Assuming that I was working similar hours as I was studying, making 200-250k (average hospitalist - I know this number varies depending on specialty) vs 120k as a pharmacist working 40/hrs (how much my friends make on average), factoring in cost of tuition/fees (not living since that would remain static), difference between resident pay and pharmacist pay adjusting for residency/physician hours, and not including investment income... my break even point would be in my late 40s. If you factor in investment income, that break even point will be much higher.
Either way, they are both great professions. There aren't going to be too many starving physicians or pharmacist (that may change with the current marker) for that matter. Do what is right for you.
First, I would like to point out that the jobs are very different. Speaking from personal experience, these are not jobs you want to do "for the money." You must love people and possess a high tolerance for stress.
PharmD:
All that being said, addressing the OP's financial question is easy.
"Compare the financial situation of a Pharmacist against a doctor with the following circumstances: the Pharmacist starts making $120k at age 24 and the doctor starts making $300k-$500k (before taxes and malpractice) at age 32-34. Compare them when they are both 45. Assume that they both bought a $800k house and two $20k cars. Who comes up on top, leaving aside other complexities?"
First, we must make an assumption on how much will be spent each year on living expenses (e.g. food, clothing, utilities, insurance, vacations, entertainment, charity, daycare). We will assume there are no charitable contributions and no daycare. If we assume spending of $5K annually on food, $2K on clothing, $3K on insurance, $3K on vacations, $2K on entertainment, $4K on utilities, $50K on mortgage (including property tax and homeowners insurance, and assuming the house was purchased with a 20% down payment on a 30-year term at 4% interest), and $8.4K on car payments (assuming the two $20K cars are completely financed at 2% annual interest rate on a 5-year term) then annual living expenses would be $77,400. This is a low-ball estimate, because we are not counting upkeep on the house, furniture for the house, gifts for family members (Christmas and birthday gifts usually add up to thousands annually for all family/friends), etc. Lots of assumptions we are forced to make, and some may disagree on my estimates.
The PharmD making $120K annually would have a take-home pay (i.e. post-tax income) of around $80K annually. An $800K house for this pharmacist would be absolutely ABSURD. The house would eat up more than half of his take-home pay, even with a long (30-year) mortgage. Furthermore, he would have virtually NOTHING left to save and invest for retirement. If this pharmacist ever had a hiccup in his career (e.g. got fired, sued, disabled without enough disability insurance, etc.), then he would not be able to make the payment on his house and it would go into foreclosure. To a lot of people, any six figure salary ($100K or more) sounds like a lot, but it can be spent very quickly with little thought. I would recommend that this pharmacist read the book: The Millionaire Next Door. Hopefully then, he would avoid making this type of mistake. Most people who buy a house beyond their means (e.g. a PharmD buying an $800K house) justify doing so by thinking of the house as an investment. These people usually fail to account for property tax (usually 1-2% of the value of the house - which would be $8,000 - 16,000 annually on an $800K house), the cost of homeowner's insurance, and most importantly capital expenditures (CapEx). CapEx includes things like replacing the roof every 20 years (could easily cost $10-20K or much more depending on material and size of the roof), flooring, plumbing, windows, cabinets, appliances, landscaping, etc. If the house is small in proportion to the owner's income, then these expenses that pop up over the years can be absorbed easily. For people who buy large houses beyond their means, these expenses add serious and unnecessary stress to life. House poor, anyone?
The doctor making $400K annually would have a take-home pay (i.e. post-tax income) of around $250K annually. This doctor could comfortably afford the $800K house. If he was smart, he would get a 15-year mortgage for a lower interest rate (e.g. 3%) and with property taxes and homeowner's insurance the house would only take up about 1/4 of his take-home pay. That would be ideal (maximum 1/4 of take-home pay preferably on a 15-year mortgage). He would have well over $100K left over after taxes and living expenses each year for retirement saving and investing.
PharmD:
- Typically earns $105-125K (employed) up to around $250K (pharmacy owner).
- Deals with 200-300 customers ("patients") per day on average.
- Must live everyday with the stress of knowing a mistake could injure or kill someone.
- Pharmacists are less likely than physicians to be sued.
- Negative online reviews typically aimed at the business as a whole, not at an individual pharmacist. More of a problem for the pharmacy owner.
- More acute stress (e.g. 200-300 Rx/day for clientele that are irritable from spending part of day in MD office).
- Clientele often expects very fast service.
- More interactions per day potentially leads to more conflict throughout the day.
- Exposed to public directly and bombarded from all sides with distractions (filling Rx's ASAP, making OTC recommendations, taking voicemail Rx's, dealing with telephone Rx transfers, dealing with drive-through window, giving immunizations, providing health screenings, providing MTM services).
- Typically earns $170K (low-end primary care) up to around $600K (high-end specialist).
- Deals with 24 - 48 patients per day on average.
- Must live everyday with the stress of knowing a mistake could injure or kill someone.
- Physicians are more likely than pharmacists to be sued.
- Negative online reviews typically aimed at the individual physician, can follow them for life, very stressful and completely outside of their control what gets posted online by patients who are usually not qualified to critique physician performance.
- More chronic stress (e.g. must maintain an extremely broad fund of knowledge year after year in an ever-changing environment).
- Clientele often expects to wait for service, albeit not for long.
- Fewer interactions per day potentially leads to less conflict.
- Highly demanding job, but more structured workflow since patients schedule appointments in advance (depending on specialty) and doctors are shielded from the general public by front-end office staff, nurses, etc.
All that being said, addressing the OP's financial question is easy.
"Compare the financial situation of a Pharmacist against a doctor with the following circumstances: the Pharmacist starts making $120k at age 24 and the doctor starts making $300k-$500k (before taxes and malpractice) at age 32-34. Compare them when they are both 45. Assume that they both bought a $800k house and two $20k cars. Who comes up on top, leaving aside other complexities?"
First, we must make an assumption on how much will be spent each year on living expenses (e.g. food, clothing, utilities, insurance, vacations, entertainment, charity, daycare). We will assume there are no charitable contributions and no daycare. If we assume spending of $5K annually on food, $2K on clothing, $3K on insurance, $3K on vacations, $2K on entertainment, $4K on utilities, $50K on mortgage (including property tax and homeowners insurance, and assuming the house was purchased with a 20% down payment on a 30-year term at 4% interest), and $8.4K on car payments (assuming the two $20K cars are completely financed at 2% annual interest rate on a 5-year term) then annual living expenses would be $77,400. This is a low-ball estimate, because we are not counting upkeep on the house, furniture for the house, gifts for family members (Christmas and birthday gifts usually add up to thousands annually for all family/friends), etc. Lots of assumptions we are forced to make, and some may disagree on my estimates.
The PharmD making $120K annually would have a take-home pay (i.e. post-tax income) of around $80K annually. An $800K house for this pharmacist would be absolutely ABSURD. The house would eat up more than half of his take-home pay, even with a long (30-year) mortgage. Furthermore, he would have virtually NOTHING left to save and invest for retirement. If this pharmacist ever had a hiccup in his career (e.g. got fired, sued, disabled without enough disability insurance, etc.), then he would not be able to make the payment on his house and it would go into foreclosure. To a lot of people, any six figure salary ($100K or more) sounds like a lot, but it can be spent very quickly with little thought. I would recommend that this pharmacist read the book: The Millionaire Next Door. Hopefully then, he would avoid making this type of mistake. Most people who buy a house beyond their means (e.g. a PharmD buying an $800K house) justify doing so by thinking of the house as an investment. These people usually fail to account for property tax (usually 1-2% of the value of the house - which would be $8,000 - 16,000 annually on an $800K house), the cost of homeowner's insurance, and most importantly capital expenditures (CapEx). CapEx includes things like replacing the roof every 20 years (could easily cost $10-20K or much more depending on material and size of the roof), flooring, plumbing, windows, cabinets, appliances, landscaping, etc. If the house is small in proportion to the owner's income, then these expenses that pop up over the years can be absorbed easily. For people who buy large houses beyond their means, these expenses add serious and unnecessary stress to life. House poor, anyone?
The doctor making $400K annually would have a take-home pay (i.e. post-tax income) of around $250K annually. This doctor could comfortably afford the $800K house. If he was smart, he would get a 15-year mortgage for a lower interest rate (e.g. 3%) and with property taxes and homeowner's insurance the house would only take up about 1/4 of his take-home pay. That would be ideal (maximum 1/4 of take-home pay preferably on a 15-year mortgage). He would have well over $100K left over after taxes and living expenses each year for retirement saving and investing.
39 yr old anesthesiologist now. Posted earlier in this thread about my income/plan. Now making 500k+ (income variable +/- 30k per year) on 55-60 hrs/wk. Worth about 2 mil now. Planning on slowing down (30 hrs per wk) in next 4-5 years. Goal is 3-4 mil with house (580k) paid off by age of 44. Life is not worth killing yourself so you can have 8 million in your account when you retire at 62. Hope this helps.
