Pharmacists Working in PBMs/Managed Care are Scumbags #RuiningTheProfession

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I've seen them do that to multiple patients. Cant pay $100 because we are to amoral to provide proper care? Go to the ER! They must figure that if they kill the patient it's the ultimate cost saving mechanism

And (not) coincidentally that shifts the cost off of the PBM side of the house and back onto the health insurance/plan sponsor. We actually reported that one to the complaints officer for my husband's company.

Another thing I love... when someone shows up in the pharmacy and I haven't seen them for 6 months because they had to go to mail order and for whatever reason, mail order has screwed up and they need something. One lady was actually told by a MEDCO rep to go to her local pharmacy and "see if we would give her" an Advair because they were behind in shipping it to her. We had no valid RX on file and I called the mail order facility to transfer the script to me and they refused. This was 5:30 PM on a Friday and the physician wasn't around either. That patient probably ended up in the ER. :mad:

Wow mail order and PBM sound so bad.

But they are much better to work at then retail or hospital though....

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Oh, thought of you the other day while on rotation. I think you should do LTC. Super duper low key, no customers, etc :thumbup: Sounds like your kind of gig

I am really not that picky with where I work at. In fact I think I am the LEAST picky out of most people on here.

People on here will either do hospital, nuclear, retail or compounding etc. people usually will only do ONE thing they like and that's it.

I, however will work ANYWHERE that will hire me ASAP. The ONLY places that I will NOT work at is CVS, Walgreens, and Rite Aid. That's it.

Anywhere else that wants to hire me I will do it period. No questions ask. I'll work. They pay me 120K+ a year. It's a deal.

Like I say...I am the LEAST picky person on this forum when it comes to what job I need.

I'll love to work retail it Costco or Trader Joes wants to hire me! :laugh:
 
However, I can't deny the fact that the BEST job is the job that will allow you to work from HOME.

My favorite place in the world is HOME.

So far I only know of mail order and PBM that will allow you to work from home.

I know PBM allows it b/c I did a PBM rotation and my preceptor told me she works from home all the time.

In fact she is allow to come in and leave whenever she please.

I was OFF every Friday b/c she told me she rarely ever come in on Fridays.

Who wouldn't want that job? A lot of days she come in at noon and leave at 2pm! What a nice life. I am so damn jealous. She makes bank too.
 
That is what they claim.

PBM's got their start back in the 70's by claiming they could increase efficiency in claims management and reimbursment. Prescriptions were starting to become a hugh expense for insurance companies. PBM's got in at the right time and became an ingrained part of how pharmacy business is done. It's just snow balled from there to the point we are at now. The big insurance companies do not have the capabilities to do what the PBM's do because the PBM's have been doing it for so long.

The tide is changing a bit. United Health Care and Blue Cross Blue Shield have started doing the own pharmacy benefit management in house. Cut out the middle man and retain all the profits!

i believe the transperancy will come as more insurance companies decide to do it in house.....we use a pbm just to process, everything else is done in house (PA, formulary, etc)....our satisfaction rating is much better b/c we really have minimized the middle man....its just that there are so many claims to process, some insurance companies dont have the capability to handle it in house
 
You sound pretty picky when you eliminate ~2/3 of Rph jobs right off the bat whiile demanding a salary at the top of the scale.

CVS, Walgreens and Rite Aid is 67% of pharmacy jobs? :eek:

Wow that sucks.

I hope I am one of the lucky 33% that don't have to work there. :laugh:
 
As for the salary...I prefer six figures...but I rather make 85K working at a PBM or mail order than 200K at Walgreens, CVS or Rite Aid.

So it's not all about the money.
 
As for the salary...I prefer six figures...but I rather make 85K working at a PBM or mail order than 200K at Walgreens, CVS or Rite Aid.

So it's not all about the money.

thats what it comes down to

I have buddies who work retail, make up to 150k, drive acura, 4000 sq ft house but have to work every 2nd or 3rd weekend

I have buddies in pbm who start in the low 80s, drive hondas, 2500 sq ft house, but are home every weekend

its all about what you want? my buddies who work retail are happy, b/c they have that cash to spend on the toys, where as my pbm buddies are much more conservative with spending on toys

I hope that gives some perspective from my experience
 
thats what it comes down to

I have buddies who work retail, make up to 150k, drive acura, 4000 sq ft house but have to work every 2nd or 3rd weekend

I have buddies in pbm who start in the low 80s, drive hondas, 2500 sq ft house, but are home every weekend

its all about what you want? my buddies who work retail are happy, b/c they have that cash to spend on the toys, where as my pbm buddies are much more conservative with spending on toys

I hope that gives some perspective from my experience

Actually from my experience the only pharmacists that are able to buy 500K houses and 100K cars are the ones that graduated with NO debt at all.

I know a guy that graduated pharmacy at 23yo and bought a 500K house...but he has no debt.

I can't imagine anyone buying a big house or nice cars until all that debt is paid off first.

That's the bad news of it all.:(

I will have 80K to 90K to pay off when I graduate. I am sure no bank will be crazy enough to lend me any money until that is paid off first.
 
thats what it comes down to

I have buddies who work retail, make up to 150k, drive acura, 4000 sq ft house but have to work every 2nd or 3rd weekend

I have buddies in pbm who start in the low 80s, drive hondas, 2500 sq ft house, but are home every weekend

its all about what you want? my buddies who work retail are happy, b/c they have that cash to spend on the toys, where as my pbm buddies are much more conservative with spending on toys

I hope that gives some perspective from my experience

It's also worth noting that QOL in PBM/MCO is not universally better. I have some friends who are in managed care who are pretty damn miserable. And had at least one friend who stuck with managed care despite a horrendous year of managed care residency that featured 11 to 12+ hour days and people appropriating his work and publishing it with him as 4th or 5th author when in reality, he should have been 1st or 2nd. This particular company is also really bad about required "social opportunities" on the weekends and is legendary for having some of the weirdest corporate lingo/groupspeak I've ever heard of.
 
When that 80K is paid off then I can FINALLY have a REAL life. :rolleyes:

I'll be OLD...(I am already OLD) but that's beyond the point...:laugh:

Why did I pick pharmacy again?

Did I mention my friend Annie lives in a 600K house and drives a Benz and she never went to college? I should have picked her route and got married when I could.

Too late for that. *sigh*
 
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It's also worth noting that QOL in PBM/MCO is not universally better. I have some friends who are in managed care who are pretty damn miserable. And had at least one friend who stuck with managed care despite a horrendous year of managed care residency that featured 11 to 12+ hour days and people appropriating his work and publishing it with him as 4th or 5th author when in reality, he should have been 1st or 2nd. This particular company is also really bad about required "social opportunities" on the weekends and is legendary for having some of the weirdest corporate lingo/groupspeak I've ever heard of.

absolutely

its all hit or miss
 
It's also worth noting that QOL in PBM/MCO is not universally better. I have some friends who are in managed care who are pretty damn miserable. And had at least one friend who stuck with managed care despite a horrendous year of managed care residency that featured 11 to 12+ hour days and people appropriating his work and publishing it with him as 4th or 5th author when in reality, he should have been 1st or 2nd. This particular company is also really bad about required "social opportunities" on the weekends and is legendary for having some of the weirdest corporate lingo/groupspeak I've ever heard of.

Dear God, please don't tell me this.

I thought only HOSPITALS offer residencies from HELL. Manage care too?

I am looking to work like 30hrs a week. Damn.

I HATE...I mean HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE reading journal articles...I HATE pub med with a passion.

So I gotta avoid anything that makes me do that...if Manage care requires that then I'll do retail or mail order.

I rather get ran over by a truck than do jouranl club. Sorry.
 
Actually from my experience the only pharmacists that are able to buy 500K houses and 100K cars are the ones that graduated with NO debt at all.

I know a guy that graduated pharmacy at 23yo and bought a 500K house...but he has no debt.

I can't imagine anyone buying a big house or nice cars until all that debt is paid off first.

That's the bad news of it all.:(

I will have 80K to 90K to pay off when I graduate. I am sure no bank will be crazy enough to lend me any money until that is paid off first.

I got a mortgage at 3.75% with like $100k in total debt. IF we're talking student loans and (in my case) a 1.9% APR, reasonably priced used car, it probably won't hold you back. What you need is a quality credit history.

You know what you should do...go to creditkarma.com and see where you stand. (And this goes for everyone :thumbup:) It's a totally legit site I discovered last year that monitors your credit and offers you your approximate FICO score daily in real time. I've seen my credit go from 720 to 770 in the last year or so as we put the nails into the coffin of a few student loans and a car loan. As soon as it crossed 740, I went ahead and entered the housing market. At that score, you become superprime and get access to the best mortgage rates. At the time, 3.75% was ridiculous...and its still good today as rates have gone down even lower. As it turned out, the Transunion score (the score creditkarma uses) was my lowest score. Experian gave my credit a freaking 805.

But getting into "good debt" (like a mortgage) is still pretty easy to do if you have a steady income and choose a reasonable house...not some $600k McMansion.
 
I am glad you are ready for OIG. My wife is the Audit Billing and Compliance Manager for one of the biggest hospitals in Texas. On the hospital side it is going to be ugly! I do not think anyone is really prepared for what is about to happen.

Doctor M, if PBM's had a reason to be here 20 years ago what has changed that they are no longer needed today? Things certainly haven't gotten simpler. Prescription drugs are such a big money now someone has to manage it or it will consume everything. If not PBM's then who?

How are they abusing small businesses?

For all the reasons mentioned by all4mydaughter. I understand the need for oversight and regulation; we have lots oversight and regulation over small independents. But until recently, who had oversight over these PBMs? I dont care if your care or not, or know or not, but PBMs abuse all small independents; they do it in ways that hit our bottomline and fattens theirs. It's always about the money. Never about anything else. Working for CVS in the past I never realized or knew about PBMs cause i never dealt with them. Maybe 1 or 2 audits in 5 years. As an owner, ive been audited 6 times in the last 8 months; this includes onsite audits and desktop audits which included purchasing history and dispensing data. Yes, small independents are more likely to commit fraud, but based on what i have seen, these PBMs rescind payment on a wrong doctor typed. Not fraud in my books, just another ploy for abuse. Not good enough for you? i was hit for $9500 in payment to a PBM over technicalities. If that isnt abuse of small businesses, then what is? Look, I love my job, would not change it for the world. But when my partner and I spend countless hours preparing for an audit, and I mean hourssssssssss, just to keep the money we have, there is something wrong. More oversight and transparency is needed of these PBMs.
 
Because we are pharmacists, it is all too easy to paint PBMs as the bad guy because by definition, we are enemies! PBMs want to cut our reimbursement so they can make more profit for themselves, and pharmacists want more reimbursement and profit.

But actually, there is one more party to consider--the plan sponsors or employers who are paying for our healthcare, and thus hold the real power. PBMs exist like a middleman or 'broker' because the employers do not want to spend the time or money shopping around for the best deals on all of their employees' scripts. So the PBMs sold this package to the employers:

- The PBM will reduce drug spend on employees by instituting cost effective drug formularies. Otherwise doctors will prescribe for anything that the last hot drug rep promoted to them, which is a hugely expensive brand name drug with minimal, if any, benefits over cheaper drugs.

- The PBM will go out and do the work of contracting with pharmacy providers to ensure wide access for the employees, and lower drug spend for the employers. For example, a large company, say Bank of America, is not going to want to go out and contract with every independent pharmacy like Doctor M's. Nor will they let their employees choose any pharmacy they want, or let Doctor M charge any price he wants, because the employer is picking up the tab, so they want controls and cost reduction. So the PBM contracts the pharmacy pharmacy network and drives reimbursement rates down by having the pharmacies compete against each other for customers. In fact, the PBMs and chains also have their own mail-order pharmacies, which can survive on ridiculously low reimbursement rates, so you are also competing with them.

- In return, the PBM will receive spread pricing. Also note that PBMs compete against each other so they can't set their spread margin too high, or the package they are selling to employers will be more expensive than other PBMs and they won't win the contract.

So in summary, don't forget the almightly power money has to do with this debate. And if you take that "he who has the gold, makes the rules" and follow the chain, it goes employers -> PBMs -> pharmacies, so unfortunately we are at the bottom of the totem pole :(
 
I got a mortgage at 3.75% with like $100k in total debt. IF we're talking student loans and (in my case) a 1.9% APR, reasonably priced used car won't hold you back. What you need is a quality credit history.

You know what you should do...go to creditkarma.com and see where you stand. (And this goes for everyone :thumbup:) It's a totally legit site I discovered last year that monitors your credit and offers you your approximate FICO score daily in real time. I've seen my credit go from 720 to 770 in the last year or so as we put the nails into the coffin of a few student loans and a car loan. As soon as it crossed 740, I went ahead and entered the housing market. At that score, you become superprime and got access to the best mortgage rate. At the time, 3.75% was ridiculous...and its still good today as rates have gone down even lower. As it turned out, the Transunion score (the score creditkarma uses) was my lowest score. Experian gave my credit a freaking 805.

But getting into "good debt" (like a mortgage) is still pretty easy to do if you have a steady income and chose a reasonable house...not some $600k McMansion.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: and it is free!!!!
 
Dear God, please don't tell me this.

I thought only HOSPITALS offer residencies from HELL. Manage care too?

I am looking to work like 30hrs a week. Damn.

I HATE...I mean HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE reading journal articles...I HATE pub med with a passion.

So I gotta avoid anything that makes me do that...if Manage care requires that then I'll do retail or mail order.

I rather get ran over by a truck than do jouranl club. Sorry.


a lot of MC requires reading articles to keep up with the drugs, some dont....if thats not your thing, you might want to look at other things
 
I got a mortgage at 3.75% with like $100k in total debt. IF we're talking student loans and (in my case) a 1.9% APR, reasonably priced used car, it probably won't hold you back. What you need is a quality credit history.

You know what you should do...go to creditkarma.com and see where you stand. (And this goes for everyone :thumbup:) It's a totally legit site I discovered last year that monitors your credit and offers you your approximate FICO score daily in real time. I've seen my credit go from 720 to 770 in the last year or so as we put the nails into the coffin of a few student loans and a car loan. As soon as it crossed 740, I went ahead and entered the housing market. At that score, you become superprime and get access to the best mortgage rates. At the time, 3.75% was ridiculous...and its still good today as rates have gone down even lower. As it turned out, the Transunion score (the score creditkarma uses) was my lowest score. Experian gave my credit a freaking 805.

But getting into "good debt" (like a mortgage) is still pretty easy to do if you have a steady income and choose a reasonable house...not some $600k McMansion.

Thanks for the information. I'll go on that website now and check it out. I know my credit score is in the 750s...

My original plan was to live in an apartment till all my debt is paid off...but I don't know now....everytime I think about my debt I feel bad about buying anything.

And it's hard to have a good life if you can't buy what you want. :rolleyes:

a lot of MC requires reading articles to keep up with the drugs, some dont....if thats not your thing, you might want to look at other things

I'll look into the ones that don't! :laugh:

Nah...I'll apply to the one in GA (Kasier Permanente), one in Florida (Wellcare), and the three in Texas (Caremark and a few others)....if there are any in NC or SC I'll apply too...

But it's NOT a big deal if I don't get the residency. It really does not matter to me that much if I do it or not. LOL
 
Because we are pharmacists, it is all too easy to paint PBMs as the bad guy because by definition, we are enemies! PBMs want to cut our reimbursement so they can make more profit for themselves, and pharmacists want more reimbursement and profit.

But actually, there is one more party to consider--the plan sponsors or employers who are paying for our healthcare, and thus hold the real power. PBMs exist like a middleman or 'broker' because the employers do not want to spend the time or money shopping around for the best deals on all of their employees' scripts. So the PBMs sold this package to the employers:

- The PBM will reduce drug spend on employees by instituting cost effective drug formularies. Otherwise doctors will prescribe for anything that the last hot drug rep promoted to them, which is a hugely expensive brand name drug with minimal, if any, benefits over cheaper drugs.

- The PBM will go out and do the work of contracting with pharmacy providers to ensure wide access for the employees, and lower drug spend for the employers. For example, a large company, say Bank of America, is not going to want to go out and contract with every independent pharmacy like Doctor M's. Nor will they let their employees choose any pharmacy they want, or let Doctor M charge any price he wants, because the employer is picking up the tab, so they want controls and cost reduction. So the PBM contracts the pharmacy pharmacy network and drives reimbursement rates down by having the pharmacies compete against each other for customers. In fact, the PBMs and chains also have their own mail-order pharmacies, which can survive on ridiculously low reimbursement rates, so you are also competing with them.

- In return, the PBM will receive spread pricing. Also note that PBMs compete against each other so they can't set their spread margin too high, or the package they are selling to employers will be more expensive than other PBMs and they won't win the contract.

So in summary, don't forget the almightly power money has to do with this debate. And if you take that "he who has the gold, makes the rules" and follow the chain, it goes employers -> PBMs -> pharmacies, so unfortunately we are at the bottom of the totem pole :(

First, today, there is NO such thing as a PBM contracting with every independent Pharmacy separately. Contracting is done by GPOs, as a group. You join a group and that group contracts you with these middlemen. The only companies that do contract directly with the pharmacy are Humana, Aetna, Cigna, Medicaid. Therefore, if there are companies that do this, it wouldnt be so bad dealing directly with the employer or Ins company.

Secondly, i find it to be a conflict of interest for a PBM to own a pharmacy or vice versa. If im competing with them, then we need to level the playing field just a little bit. Dont be fooled that a PBM that has a mail order facility will have low reimbursement.
 
I, however will work ANYWHERE that will hire me ASAP. The ONLY places that I will NOT work at is CVS, Walgreens, and Rite Aid. That's it.
However, I can't deny the fact that the BEST job is the job that will allow you to work from HOME.

My favorite place in the world is HOME.

So far I only know of mail order and PBM that will allow you to work from home.
lol! You're funny SHC. FYI I work from home and I work for Walgreens...
 
Secondly, i find it to be a conflict of interest for a PBM to own a pharmacy or vice versa. If im competing with them, then we need to level the playing field just a little bit. Dont be fooled that a PBM that has a mail order facility will have low reimbursement.
It is bad. The PBM has the power to set lower copays for patients to use mail-order, which is just enough of a dangling carrot incentive for them to forgo the convenience of brick and mortar stores. It's all part of the competitive game.

But look at the overall picture. Mail-order has lower operating costs so the PBM is reducing drug spend for the employers. Sure, the PBM could keep the savings for themselves, but they are competing against other PBMs, so they need to pass on the savings to offer cheaper and more competitive plans to employers.
 
Dear God, please don't tell me this.

I thought only HOSPITALS offer residencies from HELL. Manage care too?

I am looking to work like 30hrs a week. Damn.

I HATE...I mean HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE reading journal articles...I HATE pub med with a passion.

So I gotta avoid anything that makes me do that...if Manage care requires that then I'll do retail or mail order.

I rather get ran over by a truck than do jouranl club. Sorry.

You will not find a residency that is 30 hours per week. Sorry.

Everyone I know who did managed care residency spent a lot of time researching guidelines and reviewing evidence. That means PubMed and Journals. I don't think you understand what managed care is.

Sure, there are managed care jobs that don't require a lot of research, writing or reviewing evidence. But you can expect to do all of that in residency.
 
It is bad. The PBM has the power to set lower copays for patients to use mail-order, which is just enough of a dangling carrot incentive for them to forgo the convenience of brick and mortar stores. It's all part of the competitive game.

But look at the overall picture. Mail-order has lower operating costs so the PBM is reducing drug spend for the employers. Sure, the PBM could keep the savings for themselves, but they are competing against other PBMs, so they need to pass on the savings to offer cheaper and more competitive plans to employers.

How is dangling a carrot incentive a competitive game when they dont play fair? I have no say in it. let me as least compete in the generic game. They dont. ya know why? Money. They make money on generics. and they make money on brands. Blah blah blah...i could go on and on and on...there are those of us who wish them to hell and those of us who couldnt get enough of them....
 
How is dangling a carrot incentive a competitive game when they dont play fair? I have no say in it. let me as least compete in the generic game. They dont. ya know why? Money. They make money on generics. and they make money on brands. Blah blah blah...i could go on and on and on...there are those of us who wish them to hell and those of us who couldnt get enough of them....
It's not fair at all. I'm not arguing that it is. There are lots of dirty tricks that the PBMs use like audits, lower copays or outright forcing patients to use their own mail-order pharmacy, etc. My overall point was, yes, pharmacies get screwed in this game because the PBMs control the money and hence we're playing by their rules.

And while I wish you all the best in your ventures, many of my coworkers used to own their own pharmacies, but they got out because... you guessed it... they got sick of getting screwed by the PBMs... and now they work at Walgreens and are happy to just take home a fat paycheck... :rolleyes:
 
It's not fair at all. I'm not arguing that it is. There are lots of dirty tricks that the PBMs use like audits, lower copays or outright forcing patients to use their own mail-order pharmacy, etc. My overall point was, yes, pharmacies get screwed in this game because the PBMs control the money and hence we're playing by their rules.

And while I wish you all the best in your ventures, many of my coworkers used to own their own pharmacies, but they got out because... you guessed it... they got sick of getting screwed by the PBMs... and now they work at Walgreens and are happy to just take home a fat paycheck... :rolleyes:

Thanks for the input...Although i bitch and moan i am happy with my fatty check :laugh::laugh: Wouldnt trade any of it now. But my life would be better w/o them (PBMs) :)
 
It's not fair at all. I'm not arguing that it is. There are lots of dirty tricks that the PBMs use like audits, lower copays or outright forcing patients to use their own mail-order pharmacy, etc. My overall point was, yes, pharmacies get screwed in this game because the PBMs control the money and hence we're playing by their rules.

How is it not fair? I won't argue that it sucks but how is it not fair? What "dirty" tricks are you refering to?
 
How is it not fair? I won't argue that it sucks but how is it not fair? What "dirty" tricks are you refering to?
Audits- Going off what Doctor M said, at an independent, you get hit by audits every month and they'll chargeback based on stupid clerical errors. You rarely get audited at a chain, but I know we make even more mistakes.

Mail-order- The mail-order pharmacy is captive to the PBM, and their patients cannot choose any other mail-order pharmacy. For example, Walgreens has a mail order pharmacy so we can fill at the low rates, but say, Caremark patients can't just decide to use us because their plan doesn't have a contract with us; they have to use the Caremark mail order pharmacy. To be fair, they should allow their patients to use any pharmacy, though they may still reimburse at a lower mail-order rate than retail, which would split the business into two tiers. Low cost mail-order and higher cost but more convenient retail.

Copay manipulation- The PBMs dangle a carrot in front of patients to make them use their captive mail-order pharmacy. Because the patients only care about their copays, these can be manipulated way out of proportion with the total prescription cost. For example, a brand name drug might have a total cost of $100 for one month, but the PBM sets the copay at $25 in retail but $25 for three months at mail-order. Pretty big incentive for the patient to go mail-order. The PBM still gets covered by the employer for the remainder of the $300 drug cost so they don't lose anything by manipulating the copay. This example was oversimplified because there are a lot of non-transparent pricing issues going on as well.

Actually, the article linked by the OP highlights these and other dirty tricks by the PBMs. What I want to say is removing PBMs is not the answer. If they are not pushing down pharmacy reimbursement and putting pressure on us to lower costs, then someone else will, like:

employers --direct--> pharmacies

but I don't like this because I think employers will be too lazy to contract with say more than five different chains or even GPOs, so independents will have an even tougher time.

or

government -> pharmacies

which personally I am fine with, but I don't think other Americans will like how it goes against free market capitalism.
 
Lazy is lazy, some of the people here make it sound like if you work in managed care, you just kick it. It is a job and you need to produce results to keep it. If you work 30 hours you better be producing and if you're getting into MC because you work less harder, you're again in for a rude awakening. I work from home sometimes and it's harder than working in the office cause you need to show that you're doing work in results since you're not in the office.

I guess that's the impression we can give off in managed care because we don't stand all day or busy in front of the students. The students in my place get Fridays off too since most people TC Fridays. We might not have the constant business of retail or hospital but it's a job, there's deadlines, things due. I'll stop here but it's not as easy and chill as it looks.
 
Audits- Going off what Doctor M said, at an independent, you get hit by audits every month and they'll chargeback based on stupid clerical errors. You rarely get audited at a chain, but I know we make even more mistakes..

Not true. As a retail pharmacy manager with two different grocery store chains I was audited many times. I had three audits by three different insurance companies one month and a corporate inventory! I felt very special. I got plenty of desk audits as well.

I do not blame Doctor M for being pissed about being audited. Look at where he is located...Florida. Gee, I wonder why independent pharmacies are getting audited in Florida? Hmmmm...because Florida is the crooked independent narcotic dispensing pharmacy capital of the world. This is not Doctor M but he is getting lumped in with all the bad ones. I am not surprised CVS/Caremark is going audit crazy after they got smacked down by the DEA for recent violations in Florida.

Mail-order- The mail-order pharmacy is captive to the PBM, and their patients cannot choose any other mail-order pharmacy. For example, Walgreen's has a mail order pharmacy so we can fill at the low rates, but say, Caremark patients can't just decide to use us because their plan doesn't have a contract with us; they have to use the Caremark mail order pharmacy. To be fair, they should allow their patients to use any pharmacy, though they may still reimburse at a lower mail-order rate than retail, which would split the business into two tiers. Low cost mail-order and higher cost but more convenient retail...

Your understanding of the financial and back end side of the business is zero. First off there is not one master PBM plan that every single client who uses the PBM is forced into. Every single client who signs a contract with a PBM has an unlimited amount of choices as to how the PBM is to manage their prescription benefit. They are not forced into anything. In fact many times they force things on the PBM before they will sign the contract. Every single little detail of how the PBM manages the plan can be negotiated and manipulated by the client.

I would not expect anyone who does not work for a PBM to understand this. Believe me getting clients to sign up is a very competitive process and the various PBM's compete against each other quite vigorously.

Now to address your claims that PBM's force people into mail order. Again the PBM does not force anyone into anything. They manage the benefit exactly as the client specified when the contract was signed. Mail order is one of the many options a client specify when they sign up.

Copay manipulation- The PBMs dangle a carrot in front of patients to make them use their captive mail-order pharmacy. Because the patients only care about their copays, these can be manipulated way out of proportion with the total prescription cost. For example, a brand name drug might have a total cost of $100 for one month, but the PBM sets the copay at $25 in retail but $25 for three months at mail-order. Pretty big incentive for the patient to go mail-order. The PBM still gets covered by the employer for the remainder of the $300 drug cost so they don't lose anything by manipulating the copay. This example was oversimplified because there are a lot of non-transparent pricing issues going on as well.

Again, your understand of how things work is zero. You act as if everything is done in complete secrecy. As if the big 'ole bad PBM snuck up on a client and forced them to sign a blank contract and then filled in all the details later. This could not be any farther from the truth. The contract negotiation process is very transpart and very open. Savvy clients can negotiate all kind of things into the contract as well as play the various PBM against each other to negotiate the best deal.

I do not think any of your really understand what you mean when you say you want the PBM's to be more transparent. The laws and regulations people are trying to get passed targeting transparency in the PBM industry are focused on one main issue -The rebates and discounts the PBM gets from drug companies. There is nothing dirty, wrong or illegal about this. This is one of the ways PBM's can save a client money. A client knowing exactly what the rebates are isn't going to help anyone but the client get more money. It isn't going to help Doctor M or any other pharmacy.

What consumer good can you think of that the pricing is completely transparent? There aren't any!


or

government -> pharmacies

which personally I am fine with, but I don't think other Americans will like how it goes against free market capitalism.

Oh good lord really? You are like a baby trying to tell an old man how the world works. You have zero understanding. You want to know audit, red tape, bureaucratic hell then look no further than the government. People are going to find out in 2014 how great it is to have the government involved in healthcare. You think you know complicated? Try and understand the Medicare regulations governing hospital billing. The same mess is coming to a retail pharmacy close to you soon and it ain't pretty.
 
Not sure if this is a coincidence but TruthRx, the troll who started this little thread, has the same name as this group.

www.TruthRx.org.


I would say he did a good job trolling it up and getting everyone excited!

he might be a troll, but there are some things that can be said about managed care.. well lets be honest.. and retail. But I agree, most posts seem a little hateful...
 
I would say he did a good job trolling it up and getting everyone excited!
yeah we are getting a bit riled up here aren't we... :rolleyes: Time for a drink, this round's on me...

MountainPharmD, I read the whole gist of your argument is to shift blame off PBMs, and over to the plan sponsors/client. Actually I have no problem with this, because I'm not against PBMs. I said it myself that if PBMs are not pushing down pharmacy reimbursement and putting pressure on us to lower costs, then someone else will, like the employers or government, and they will probably employ the same 'dirty tricks'. In quotes because yes, I admit they are only dirty tricks from the pharmacy's point of view, which is what most of us pharmacists see. So, no, I don't have that much understanding of the back end side (PBM) of the business.
Oh good lord really? You are like a baby trying to tell an old man how the world works. You have zero understanding. You want to know audit, red tape, bureaucratic hell then look no further than the government. People are going to find out in 2014 how great it is to have the government involved in healthcare. You think you know complicated? Try and understand the Medicare regulations governing hospital billing. The same mess is coming to a retail pharmacy close to you soon and it ain't pretty.
What I meant by government -> pharmacy, is a direct single payer system, such as what they have in the U.K., Canada and Australia. Well I used to be a pharmacist in Australia so I know more than a fair bit about how such a system works, and it worked great! But that is NOT what we are getting here in 2014. I agree with you that what we are going to get is a major cluster ****!!!
 
yeah we are getting a bit riled up here aren't we... :rolleyes: Time for a drink, this round's on me...

MountainPharmD, I read the whole gist of your argument is to shift blame off PBMs, and over to the plan sponsors/client. Actually I have no problem with this, because I'm not against PBMs. I said it myself that if PBMs are not pushing down pharmacy reimbursement and putting pressure on us to lower costs, then someone else will, like the employers or government, and they will probably employ the same 'dirty tricks'. In quotes because yes, I admit they are only dirty tricks from the pharmacy's point of view, which is what most of us pharmacists see. So, no, I don't have that much understanding of the back end side (PBM) of the business.

What I meant by government -> pharmacy, is a direct single payer system, such as what they have in the U.K., Canada and Australia. Well I used to be a pharmacist in Australia so I know more than a fair bit about how such a system works, and it worked great! But that is NOT what we are getting here in 2014. I agree with you that what we are going to get is a
major cluster ****!!!

No, no, no! I am not defending anyone! Simply giving my perspective.

The whole system is screwed up! PBMs are but a small part of the system and thus a small part of the problem. If you want to blame something blame money and the desire to aquire as much of it as possible by every person or corporation involved in heathcare.
 
No, no, no! I am not defending anyone! Simply giving my perspective.

The whole system is screwed up! PBMs are but a small part of the system and thus a small part of the problem. If you want to blame something blame money and the desire to aquire as much of it as possible by every person or corporation involved in heathcare.

I for one got excited...Damn troll.
 
The little amount that pharmacists actually know about PBMS/Managed care is laughable. After working retail for 5 years and interning at a PBM at the same time I understand that each has a place in the transaction. Without PBMs pharmacies inherit a lot of bad debt, prices are less regulated so they can charge consumers outrageous prices, and there is more potential for abuse/fraud. The largescale impact a pharmacist can have in managed care can have are greater than any other area. For instance a clinical program manager can adjust formularies and policies for 2 million+ customers/patients.
 
FYI, in CA, the health plans here already run like a ACO system so when the ACA passed everyone was like, ok, nothing is changing. The east coast people not used to it were the ones freaking out when we met them at AMCP.

Managed care is on the rise because of the ACA, maybe not in the same way but it will adapt like everything.

No offense but it's just frustrating because managed care is so big and varied and trying to explain it on an Internet message board is tough. There's so many assumptions about it or people think they know what's its about that it's pretty humorous. It's kinda like how a lot of you see undergrads talk about pharmacy careers and they talk as if they really know what's really going on. I know I sound like an ass but all my post have been honest and I try to be informative.

I think it's funny to see how many pharmacists have no pucking CLUE about what's going on, haha. I've even brought up recent legislation with pharmacists and have them look at me completely glazed. Just as age doesn't equal wisdom, neither does a title, plenty of people are content with living their lives in a silo.
 
I think it's funny to see how many pharmacists have no pucking CLUE about what's going on, haha. I've even brought up recent legislation with pharmacists and have them look at me completely glazed. Just as age doesn't equal wisdom, neither does a title, plenty of people are content with living their lives in a silo.

I for one am never content. Just as PBMs are looking for ways to make money, so are we. Yes, we are healthcare professionals, but we are also a business. I feel like i am at war with these PBMs. I bill a compound and all of a sudden, I have the PBM calling for the prescription, the ingredients, and purchasing history. Yes, I understand compounds can be a source of billing errors and fraud, but man, try to make a living and run a legit business and they are breathing down your neck. Pulling my hair out everyday.
 
What are some of the jobs pharmacists can do at PBMs?

What is the future like for this area of pharmacy?
 
Everyone is assigned to do different tasks.

Front-end pharmacists may verify prescriptions (making sure it was typed correctly), take new rx over the phone, may outreach to MD offices and patients, prior authorization, etc.

Don't have any experience in the back-end, but they are the dispensing pharmacists...
 
1. Mystery MAC pricing that somehow often ends up below what we can actually buy the drug for.
2. Audits of extremely picky, very silly stuff that isn't illegal and doesn't affect patient care, but allows them to take back paid claims.
3. Forcing our customers into mandatory mail order and then expecting us to cover their asses when they mess up and don't get the patient's drugs to them on time.
4. Taking forever to pay claims just because they can.

All My Daughter that's not True- it can't be- according to MPD- he has spoken to hundreds of people who would NEVER want to return to retail. Even though EVERY customer I have spoken to have not like their mail order and even though I produced data showing Mail Order finished dead last in customer satisfaction but hey MPD can't possibly be wrong.
Also, someone earlier wrote that PBM's are hospital/retail rejects and just thinking about it EVERYONE I know who works as a PBM were former retail pharmacist/techs.
 
All My Daughter that's not True- it can't be- according to MPD- he has spoken to hundreds of people who would NEVER want to return to retail. Even though EVERY customer I have spoken to have not like their mail order and even though I produced data showing Mail Order finished dead last in customer satisfaction but hey MPD can't possibly be wrong.
Also, someone earlier wrote that PBM's are hospital/retail rejects and just thinking about it EVERYONE I know who works as a PBM were former retail pharmacist/techs.

ftfy
 
All My Daughter that's not True- it can't be- according to MPD- he has spoken to hundreds of people who would NEVER want to return to retail. Even though EVERY customer I have spoken to have not like their mail order and even though I produced data showing Mail Order finished dead last in customer satisfaction but hey MPD can't possibly be wrong.
Also, someone earlier wrote that PBM's are hospital/retail rejects and just thinking about it EVERYONE I know who works as a PBM were former retail pharmacist/techs.

As you know Rxnupe every bit of data you can produce can be countered with data saying the exact opposite.

How is this for you! Wow! CVS is at a 7 year low behind Walgreens and Rite Aid. Yep, lots of customers just beating down the door to go to CVS!

From //www.theacsi.org/ Customer Satisfaction Index

Health & personal care stores retreat for a second year and are the only retail category to lose customer satisfaction ground in 2011. Down 1.3% to 76, drug stores tie the other categories except for specialty retail at 79 and gasoline stations at 74. But unlike other retail segments, small has a pronounced advantage when it comes to drug stores. The aggregation of smaller drug stores leads by a wide margin at 82 (+1%). Among the big three chains, Walgreen loses 3% and drops into a tie with an unchanged Rite Aid at 75. Customer satisfaction with CVS Caremark dwindles to a seven-year low of 73 (-1%), perhaps symptomatic of the company’s cost-cutting in the face of depressed sales.


Here is another one for you. This is a CVS/Carmark press release.

Caremark Customer Care Centers have again been recognized for customer satisfaction excellence by J.D. Power and Associates Certified Call Center Program(SM). This is the third time that the Company has received this distinction, which acknowledges Caremark's call center operations as providing "An Outstanding Customer Service Experience."Caremark Customer Care Centers in Arizona, Missouri, Pennsylvania, Tennessee and Texas are included in this certification.

Wow! Again proving to us how much of a corporate drone you are! I bet your emerging leader class is really pround of how you blindly toe the CVS line!

Don't hate because you are not smart enough to get out of retail. Soon it will be too late! You just keep on running the prescription mill until they replace you with someone cheaper who can do it with less than you can.
 
As you know Rxnupe every bit of data you can produce can be countered with data saying the exact opposite.

How is this for you! Wow! CVS is at a 7 year low behind Walgreens and Rite Aid. Yep, lots of customers just beating down the door to go to CVS!

From //www.theacsi.org/ Customer Satisfaction Index




Here is another one for you. This is a CVS/Carmark press release.



Wow! Again proving to us how much of a corporate drone you are! I bet your emerging leader class is really pround of how you blindly toe the CVS line!

Don't hate because you are not smart enough to get out of retail. Soon it will be too late! You just keep on running the prescription mill until they replace you with someone cheaper who can do it with less than you can.

Bumping for this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=13405707
 
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/12/11/winner-of-the-pbm-wars/

"The Congressional Budget Office estimates that PBMs save as much as 30% in total drug spending. Ultimately, those savings result in your spending less on prescription drugs and less than you would otherwise have to spend on taxes to support government health programs. Therefore, the real winner of the "PBM wars" just might be you."
 
What are PBMs going to charge for a dispensing fee for short-cycle fills for pharmacies that fill for long term care facilities? A lot of pharmacist think they will give a prorated rate per day. Therefore, you would have to fill 2 scripts a month to get the same dispensing fee as you would for 1 30 day supply. This is just another example of how PBMs screw pharmacies over.

This business has too many middlemen (PBMs and wholesalers$
 
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