Pharmacy or Nursing in Ontario? I'm serious.

[Pharm Wannabe]

Hello all,

I have been accepted to both U of T and U of Waterloo for pharmacy. Additionally, I have been accepted into second-entry (2 year program) Nursing programs at U of T and York U. My GPA is 3.8. Now, before you all get riled-up about my comparing pharmacy with nursing, please carefully consider what I have to say:
In case you may not know yet, Ontario's Liberal government has recently passed a bill that bans generic drug companies from compensating pharmacies with professional fees. It has been estimated that this would cut down about $300k in revenue from the average-sized pharmacy. This would invariably mean that pharmacies would not be able to hire as many staff that they have now, effectively leading to an oversupply of pharmacists and hence difficulties in find a pharmacy job.
I know several practicing nurses who say that they enjoy their jobs and had no difficulty at all securing a full-time job when they graduated (2 to 5 years ago). Despite the recession (which has gripped the province more than any other), they say they are still consistently seeing nursing grads being hired right after graduation by the major hospitals in Toronto. Basic salaries for full-time RNs start at $59k, reaching $83k after 11 years. This may not sound like much, but consider that nurses are unionized and the ONA (Ontario Nurses Association, aka nurse union) have consistently managed to negotiate the Ontario government to give a 3% annual raises for the past several years. Also, with unions come job security proportional to seniority (in pharmacy, I have learned, experience means very little in the pharmacist's marketability and job security), and of course perks such as dental, added medical, disability, and life insurance, and retirement pension for all its members. Also, seniority means that you get first pick of overtime hours (supplement the basic salary) -- I doubt that working for Shoppers Drug Mart with get me anything close to this -- and pick of shift hours. Furthermore, the legal retirement age for nurses here is 55 years old, meaning that you can withdraw from your RRSPs by that age without needing to be taxed (other occupations have 65 years as retirement age).

So, inputs anyone? Thanks a lot.

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[byork]

Go into pharmacy. There's much more you can do in pharmacy besides retail. There are so many opportunities.

Consider nursing versus hospital pharmacy.

My friend's mom is a hospital pharmacist in Guelph and she told me there are many vacant positions across the province.

 

[demayette]

Hello all,

I have been accepted to both U of T and U of Waterloo for pharmacy. Additionally, I have been accepted into second-entry (2 year program) Nursing programs at U of T and York U. My GPA is 3.8. Now, before you all get riled-up about my comparing pharmacy with nursing, please carefully consider what I have to say:
In case you may not know yet, Ontario's Liberal government has recently passed a bill that bans generic drug companies from compensating pharmacies with professional fees. It has been estimated that this would cut down about $300k in revenue from the average-sized pharmacy. This would invariably mean that pharmacies would not be able to hire as many staff that they have now, effectively leading to an oversupply of pharmacists and hence difficulties in find a pharmacy job.
I know several practicing nurses who say that they enjoy their jobs and had no difficulty at all securing a full-time job when they graduated (2 to 5 years ago). Despite the recession (which has gripped the province more than any other), they say they are still consistently seeing nursing grads being hired right after graduation by the major hospitals in Toronto. Basic salaries for full-time RNs start at $59k, reaching $83k after 11 years. This may not sound like much, but consider that nurses are unionized and the ONA (Ontario Nurses Association, aka nurse union) have consistently managed to negotiate the Ontario government to give a 3% annual raises for the past several years. Also, with unions come job security proportional to seniority (in pharmacy, I have learned, experience means very little in the pharmacist's marketability and job security), and of course perks such as dental, added medical, disability, and life insurance, and retirement pension for all its members. Also, seniority means that you get first pick of overtime hours (supplement the basic salary) -- I doubt that working for Shoppers Drug Mart with get me anything close to this -- and pick of shift hours. Furthermore, the legal retirement age for nurses here is 55 years old, meaning that you can withdraw from your RRSPs by that age without needing to be taxed (other occupations have 65 years as retirement age).

So, inputs anyone? Thanks a lot.

Dont go into nursing....I did that and I regret it every day of my life.

 

[byork]

There ya go. You will regret every day of your life. You will also probably die alone.

 

[pharmwannebe2]

Hello all,

I have been accepted to both U of T and U of Waterloo for pharmacy. Additionally, I have been accepted into second-entry (2 year program) Nursing programs at U of T and York U. My GPA is 3.8. Now, before you all get riled-up about my comparing pharmacy with nursing, please carefully consider what I have to say:
In case you may not know yet, Ontario's Liberal government has recently passed a bill that bans generic drug companies from compensating pharmacies with professional fees. It has been estimated that this would cut down about $300k in revenue from the average-sized pharmacy. This would invariably mean that pharmacies would not be able to hire as many staff that they have now, effectively leading to an oversupply of pharmacists and hence difficulties in find a pharmacy job.
I know several practicing nurses who say that they enjoy their jobs and had no difficulty at all securing a full-time job when they graduated (2 to 5 years ago). Despite the recession (which has gripped the province more than any other), they say they are still consistently seeing nursing grads being hired right after graduation by the major hospitals in Toronto. Basic salaries for full-time RNs start at $59k, reaching $83k after 11 years. This may not sound like much, but consider that nurses are unionized and the ONA (Ontario Nurses Association, aka nurse union) have consistently managed to negotiate the Ontario government to give a 3% annual raises for the past several years. Also, with unions come job security proportional to seniority (in pharmacy, I have learned, experience means very little in the pharmacist's marketability and job security), and of course perks such as dental, added medical, disability, and life insurance, and retirement pension for all its members. Also, seniority means that you get first pick of overtime hours (supplement the basic salary) -- I doubt that working for Shoppers Drug Mart with get me anything close to this -- and pick of shift hours. Furthermore, the legal retirement age for nurses here is 55 years old, meaning that you can withdraw from your RRSPs by that age without needing to be taxed (other occupations have 65 years as retirement age).

So, inputs anyone? Thanks a lot.

are you kidding me.

CHOOSE NURSING. What is happening in canada right now is pretty horrible. I heard a lot of pharmacists are getting laid off and techs are getting to take over a lot of the pharmacist's responsibility. I would rather go to school and get a job than not have one.

 

[RNtoPharmD]

I am trying not influence you in any way.
Have you thought about nurse practitioner? In the US, they don't earned much more than RN and sometimes even less but the scope of practice is different. But again, if you don't like nursing, you will have to su*k it up for years before completing advanced practice degree.

Do what you love. Supply and demand can change. In the US, there are new graduate nurses who can't find job now while, a few years back, I had a job waiting right after graduation (as an international student). And this is just a few years ago. Same applied to pharmacy.

 

[SomeGuy]

stuff

So, inputs anyone? Thanks a lot.

For the most part, you'll have to choose whichever you can see yourself doing in 5, 10, 25 years, etc. (I know, I hate that answer too).

Pharmacists generally get their dental, medical, disability, life insurance, etc. paid for. Hospital pharmacists get the same pension plan as nurses. Retail pharmacists may have some matching, but will generally be on their own for retirement. Having said that, retail pharmacists make substantially more than nurses and hospital pharmacists at the outset of their careers, and should be able to sock away a pile of money early in their career/life to help make up for this.

Oh, and not every nurse is a union hospital nurse.

I think you're incorrect in stating there's a legal retirement age for nurses and especially wrong in your definition of what this means.

Most retail pharmacists don't have the backing of a union, but if you're competent and actually good at what you do, this shouldn't be much of an issue once you're in. Good people are almost never in surplus.

Don't forget to account for the opportunity costs: Nursing would be 2 more years of schooling, pharmacy would be 4. This is significant since it's easier to predict the market for something 2 years down the line rather than 4 years, and of course, you're making money for 2 more years, building pension credit, seniority, etc. instead of spending money. School is more fun than work though. Be sure to consider your OSAP and grant possibilities.

Re: job security for nurses, I've been hearing a lot of hospital units have been increasing their RPN headcounts and decreasing their RN headcounts, so it isn't always so rosy.

All that blah-blah about seniority actually works against you when you're starting out, especially if you're a competent person and nobody's hiring ("You're our best candidate, but we have to hire back the laid-off Mr. NeverRetiresEvenThoughHeDoesn'tNeedTheMoney and Ms. ICanJuggleMySixKidsByBringingThemToWorkWithMe because they have more seniority than you, sorry.")

(PS: Have any unemployed friends that just finished teachers' college? I know scores.)

Specialize or die. Make yourself irreplaceable in whatever you do.

 

[UBCmicrobi]

I don't know anything about nursing, to be honest, but something that struck me while reading your post was the mandatory retirement at 55. Sure it sounds nice to retire early, but I'd consider earning potential, since you will have fewer years to earn income/save for retirement. If I had to retire at 55, given the age I will be when I graduate from pharmacy school, my earning potential would be drastically diminished. Something to think about. (of course I don't know if there are other job opportunities for nurses after retirement).

 

[quartel]

it's tough because of the present circumstances.

pharmacy grads cant get jobs right now in Canada because of the Rexall-government feud.

By the time you get out it may or may not be solved.

You are seriously looking at being jobless when you get out and I'm not even joking about that.

 

[byork]

it's tough because of the present circumstances.

pharmacy grads cant get jobs right now in Canada because of the Rexall-government feud.

By the time you get out it may or may not be solved.

You are seriously looking at being jobless when you get out and I'm not even joking about that.

Sorry, where are you from?

 

[Pharmavixen]

Instead of looking at pay and benefits, consider the jobs themselves and which you would like more. There are many options in pharmacy, while in nursing you generally will be working within the health care system, subject to layoffs, depending on which government is in power. A conservative government gets in and says, time to trim the fat, and nurses get fired. Then a liberal government comes in and hires them back.

I'm an Ontario pharmacist, daughter of an Ontario nurse, who said if I went into nursing, she'd never speak to me again (things have improved in the profession since mum retired in '89).

Pharmacists generally have more options, more power, and more autonomy in the workplace than nurses. And IMO, workplace politics among nurses seems more toxic.

 

[quartel]

I've pm'ed you but the thing I don't understand is why you don't bother going med or dent. Your GPA is good and if you can get into those high caliber schools I can't see why you can't get in for med at places like Western or McMaster.

Pharmacy seems like a shaky profession in Canada at the moment. With your GPA I wouldn't hesitate to try for med or dent. These professions seem like safer professions to be in. Even if it took you an extra yr or two to get that MCAT/DAT score I'd do it. Pharmacy is from what I've been told pretty saturated in Ontario.

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/792625--shoppers-drug-mart-threatens-layoffs-closings


I have to mention to you that nurses get treated like second class citizens from I have personally witnessed in Ontarian hospitals. They are mostly miserable and I can't blame them with the mean physicians they have to work beside. I used to volunteer at a hospital in Etobicoke and witnessed terrible things. I would never ever want to endure that kind of treatment from anyone.

In a retail setting, as a pharmacist, you are the boss and you can do anything you want. I've seen pharmacists fire people simply because they just didn't like them. Nurses can't get anyone fired unless they were the head nurse at a hospital or something. Being a nurse isn't just about getting decent salary, you'll have to endure a lot of hardship and may never have autonomy as the pharmavixen said. It's definitely something to soberly think about. Listen, I could be wrong I'm quite ignorant about nursing. I'm just telling you about what I have personally witnessed.

 

[quartel]

Sorry, where are you from?

I didn't say.

I'm from Canada.

 

[Pharm Wannabe]

I've pm'ed you but the thing I don't understand is why you don't bother going med or dent. Your GPA is good and if you can get into those high caliber schools I can't see why you can't get in for med at places like Western or McMaster.

Pharmacy seems like a shaky profession in Canada at the moment. With your GPA I wouldn't hesitate to try for med or dent. These professions seem like safer professions to be in. Even if it took you an extra yr or two to get that MCAT/DAT score I'd do it. Pharmacy is from what I've been told pretty saturated in Ontario.

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/792625--shoppers-drug-mart-threatens-layoffs-closings


I have to mention to you that nurses get treated like second class citizens from I have personally witnessed in Ontarian hospitals. They are mostly miserable and I can't blame them with the mean physicians they have to work beside. I used to volunteer at a hospital in Etobicoke and witnessed terrible things. I would never ever want to endure that kind of treatment from anyone.

In a retail setting, as a pharmacist, you are the boss and you can do anything you want. I've seen pharmacists fire people simply because they just didn't like them. Nurses can't get anyone fired unless they were the head nurse at a hospital or something. Being a nurse isn't just about getting decent salary, you'll have to endure a lot of hardship and may never have autonomy as the pharmavixen said. It's definitely something to soberly think about. Listen, I could be wrong I'm quite ignorant about nursing. I'm just telling you about what I have personally witnessed.

Thank you for your responses.

I've been asked this question many times before. I've worked for both physcians AND dentists before. Here is what I have learned about both professions:

Medicine:

Highs:
Awesome pay (after finishing residency and fellowship). Lots of demand, for the forseeable future. Critical shortage in Canada, even more severe than in the US (Canada has 1 physcian for every 500+ people, US has 1 physician for every 380 people).
In contrast to their US counterparts, Canadian physician have few worries about malpractice. 80% of there malpractice insurance premiums are paid for by the provincial governments (forced upon the government by Canada's medical associations some 12 years ago when the docs threatened to not serve the public or simply pack-up and leave for the then more lucrative opportunities in the US). The Canadian Medical Protective Agency has access to a $2.8 billion slush fund (provided by the government) to hire the best malpractice lawyers to defend physician if he/she is sued. Unlike private malpractice insurance companies in the US, which can force the doc to settle, the CMPA is willing to risk every penny to fight and prolong trials (until the claimant runs out of cash) on behalf of its members. Even after being sued, the doc's malpractice premiums do not increase at all, unless the medical license is revoked (which only happens only if and only if the doctor is deemed at fault for the DEATH of a patient).
The respective and gratification that you get when you save/improve a life, or preventing someone from loosing it.


Lows: 1/3 of all medical grads in Canada end up in family medicine, which is a much larger proportion than US med grads. The family physician I worked for sees 40-50 patients/day, goes home after 7:00 pm, and reads up on lab reports, consultation reports, and pays bills after going home. Works 6 days/week. Sometimes come in on Sundays to finish extra filing. No time for family. Since the doc is self-employed, he had no benefits to speak of.
How about the other the other 2/3 of Canadian med grads who end up in a specialty? Well, most specialty residencies are 80 hours/ week (like 2 full-time jobs) during during residency years, making $45K - $70k/ year. If you're doing primary care or surgery, the hours don't improve much after you become attending physician and even then you can be assigned 24 hour shifts at least for three days of a month, like an endocrinologist I know. She said that she almost always was kept occupied throughout these shifts ---> no time for naps.
Canadian med school tuition is 12K to 25K/ year. Much cheaper than US schools, but still not trivial. Compare this to $7k for non-Ontario pharm schools and the <$14k Ontario pharm schools. Also, OSAP starts charging interest (prime +2.5%) as soon as you finish med school, not after residency. Don't even get me started about the US med schools such as NYU that charges $64k + cost of living in the most expensive place on the planet. Some of my friends are actually looking into US schools BTW. One is even considering mortaging his family's house to get the bank loans needed.


Dentistry:
Highs:
Awesome pay (but wait, read on). Some dentists I know works 4 days/ week on 8/day. Fantastic in terms of lifestyle! No residency requirement, unless if you want to be a dental specialist -- but even those tend to be only 2-3 years in duration, compared to 5 to 8 years for med specialties -- yes fellowship included.
Since a dentist does not see as many patients per/day has a physcian, and don't order lab tests, there is nowhere near as much paperwork as a family doc.

Lows:
Most dental grads start out working as an associate for the first few years (unless he/she has family $$$ support to start up or purchase a practice --starting up/buying a small practice costs $250k to $600k, because of the amount of equipment involved (physicians need very few expensive equipment). Associates get paid anywhere from $80k to $150K/year, not necessarily higher than a pharmacist. Most of the time, the associate dentist, working for a very small business owner, gets no perks at all.
Cost of dental school in Canada range from $25k/year for U of T (not including living expenses) to $51k for Western Ontario (including expenses) to a whopping $75k/year for UBC!!! How will I ever recoupe this investment by working as an associate!!!??? I would be working for the Loan sharks (i.e. government and private banks), in terms of interest payments, for years to come. If I had $300K to boot for starting my own practice, I wouldn't even need to take out loans for dental education to begin with in the first place, would I?
Again, don't even get me started with the US dental schools like USC that cost $100k/year. Not surprisingly, I don't know of anyone who's considering go to US for dentistry.
Unlike medicine -- with the exception of surgery (which are competitive to get into anyways) -- dentistry requires manual dexterity. I have every confidence in myself in this regard. But consider the dire implications to my ability to practice dentistry (an hence, the ability to pay off loans --> hinting at bankrupcy) if ANY the following happens to me:
a) Severe vision deterioration that cannot be fully corrected by surgery for glasses, such as glaucoma.
b) develop arthritis in my hands
c) develop neurological disorders.
d) injure my hands and arms, such as loosing even a single distal phalanx.
Every single dentist I know have developed or is developing back pain. This, I can and would be willing to grunt it out, but I can't do anything to prevent any of the above physiological disorders from shutting me down.
Owning your own practice can earn you $200K to $250K as a general dentist. Again, you need to have the capital to start off your own business first. $350K if you're a specialist. But a much smaller proportion of dental grads get to specialize (something like <15%, have to be top of your class), unlike >65% in medicine. And, substantial start-up cost of owning your own practice is still there!

 

[quartel]

If you were born as an American, with your GPA, I think you could of gone to US med or dent school and either have sallie mae or the military to foot the bill. Born a Canadian it is insanely competitive to get into med or dent in Ontario. And even if you got into an American med/dent school OSAP will pay only 10k a year. You'd have to leverage your house and get a bank loan to just pay for tuition. This is why I hate Ontario, it's just the worst.

 

[SomeGuy]

You've clearly done very good research (especially re: CMPA).
Just a couple notes:

"Lots of demand, for the forseeable future. Critical shortage in Canada, even more severe than in the US (Canada has 1 physcian for every 500+ people, US has 1 physician for every 380 people).

Lots of demand for health care, yes, but lots of demand for physicians may not last as long as some may think, due to vastly increased class sizes, more residency spots, more foreign grads (both Canadian and immigrant), increased utilization of midlevels and technology.

I wouldn't compare us to the US, they have extra capacity everywhere.

Compared to W. Europe, Canada has fewer physicians per capita, but, for example, I doubt those countries utilize (or even have) nurse practitioners to the extent that we do or will do.

re: Family Practice, and this is more to clarify for the non-Canucks reading, it's still (mostly) fee-for-service in Canada, so if you're working more, you're making more. I believe OHIP pays $30-$60 per visit, so if a doc is seeing 40-50 patients per day, that's $1200/day in revenue at the absolute minimum. (And for the USians reading, 100% of what is claimed is collected, paid on time, usually no questions asked.) I understand the overhead costs, but I would suggest that this physician is working more than they need to in order to survive comfortably (by how I define "comfortably" anyway).
I don't understand why any physician spends any of their time filing or paying bills: Such work should be outsourced to appropriate support staff.

Since the doc is self-employed, he had no benefits to speak of.

Self-employed people can get whatever benefits they want, they just don't have an employer to necessarily pay for it. A physician should be able to sign up for an insurance plan available to physicians only, and pay appropriate premiums for that risk pool. As Canadian physicians have a good income, free meds from drug reps, and don't need to worry about medical coverage for obvious reasons, they can self-insure against many risks ($5k for dental work? No problem!) that the rest of us can't. They might bicker about having to pay cash for these things or ending up on the occasional wrong side of such bets, but they're better off _not_ buying true insurance for it, since true insurance just averages out claim costs and adds a substantial markup.

Canadian med school tuition is 12K to 25K/ year. Much cheaper than US schools, but still not trivial. Compare this to $7k for non-Ontario pharm schools and the <$14k Ontario pharm schools.

I wouldn't worry so much about the tuition: OSAP gives pretty hefty grants (up to $5k/year), and the universities and faculties have their own financial aid programs too. Professional student lines of credit for pharmacy, dentistry medicine are rightly on good terms. I'm not sure about nursing though.

Also, OSAP starts charging interest (prime +2.5%) as soon as you finish med school, not after residency.

True, but smarter lenders realize the fantastic credit risk (and future business) that med students represent, and they can usually get loans at prime (and prime minus wasn't unheard of in the past) and not have to start paying back either interest or principal until they start practicing independently.

But consider the dire implications to my ability to practice dentistry (an hence, the ability to pay off loans --> hinting at bankrupcy) if ANY the following happens to me:
a) Severe vision deterioration that cannot be fully corrected by surgery for glasses, such as glaucoma.
b) develop arthritis in my hands
c) develop neurological disorders.
d) injure my hands and arms, such as loosing even a single distal phalanx.

Most of these you can insure against, and I'd imagine any rational dentist insures against such risks to the hills. I'll bet severe vision deterioration isn't particularly common amongst dentists
For things that are harder to insure against, like arthritis, you could work less, work more slowly, or take up a job that pays less, but still far better than the average person gets doing non-clinical work (like claims reviewing for an insurance company, teaching, consulting, etc). Hopefully by this point, you already have the car/nest egg/house paid off, so making less isn't really a problem.

Another plus for physicians/dentistry (depending on your province): Professional Corporations allowing for more flexible accounting.