Pharmacy & Politics

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Ron Paul tonight at 7pm on NBC nightly news with Brian Williams. Jay leno the 30th and don't forget to watch the debate on Sunday. Ron Paul is against socialized medicine that will hurt pharmacy.
 
cream said:
Ron Paul tonight at 7pm on NBC nightly news with Brian Williams. Jay leno the 30th and don't forget to watch the debate on Sunday. Ron Paul is against socialized medicine that will hurt pharmacy.
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Who cares.

And as a Republican and/or Democrat there is an automatic 99.9% chance he is a twit that won't fix anything, anyway. And, no, Paul is not "different."
 
Would somebody please define socialized medicine?
 
Quoted from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. "Socialized medicine or state medicine is a term used principally in the United States to describe health care systems which operate by means of government regulation and subsidies derived from taxation.[1] Socialized medicine can refer to any system of medical care controlled and financed by the government. The term is often used to describe publicly administered health care systems such as the British National Health Service,[2][3] In the United States, the term is often used pejoratively in political discourse. [4] [5]"
 
MountainPharmD said:
Quoted from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. "Socialized medicine or state medicine is a term used principally in the United States to describe health care systems which operate by means of government regulation and subsidies derived from taxation.[1] Socialized medicine can refer to any system of medical care controlled and financed by the government. The term is often used to describe publicly administered health care systems such as the British National Health Service,[2][3] In the United States, the term is often used pejoratively in political discourse. [4] [5]"
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Pejoratively...good word
 
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A word, or phrase is pejorative if it either implies contempt or disapproval. The adjective pejorative is synonymous with derogatory, derisive, and dyslogistic. When used as an adjective, pejorative has two meanings: (1) tending to make or become worse, and (2) tending to disparage or belittle. [1] When used as a noun, pejorative means "a belittling or disparaging word or expression".[2]

Just to be clear.:laugh:
 
This could be a really good thread. Its about time we talk about something important on here.

How about someone come up with a good logical argument either way on what we should do to fix healthcare in the United States.
 
Old Timers Perfect Health Care System



Option One: Insurance System: All citizens of the United States of America are required by an act of Congress to purchase private health insurance. Those unable to afford such insurance, would have the premium paid by the Government in the form of refundable tax credits. Employers would be forbidden to provide (and therefore control) health insurance to their employees. They would be encouraged to reimburse their employees for insurance again via the tax code. The only role of the government would be to set up parameters for the insurance companies and prevent them from abusing the public. The consumer has the right to shop for and purchase any type of insurance he or she desires or can afford. From the most basic to the most comprehensive. All insurance must include catastrophic coverage so we will not be bankrupting the patients and the providers.

Option Two: Fee for Service: Private insurance would be abolished and all medical care would be fee for service. All citizens would be required to purchase or have the government purchase a catastrophic policy. Employers and employees would be able to place funds in a Medical savings account that would be tax exempt. All payments would be made by the patient to the provider from this fund. The patient would not be encouraged to get every expensive and useless test, because they would pay for it directly. Drug and device manufacturers would be encouraged to produce items patients could afford. Watch generic use sky rocket. Right now, coverage for a family of four would be over $12,000.00 per year. If that money were placed in an account, most families would not consume $12,000.00 per year of services. Since it would all be in cash with no forms to fill out, prices would fall. The balance would build from year to year.

The main problem with our present system is the costs are indirect. The patient is shielded from the actual cost of the services. If you have no incentive to control the costs, why should you. Why should hospital X pay for an ER visit for an uninsured patient or pass those costs onto the rest of us. Why should my taxes support a medical welfare bureaucracy when the money can go directly to patient care.
​
 
The word on the street is health savings accounts are the future of healthcare. My last employer and current one both offer it as an option and I feel in a few years it will be the only option.

How do you change to a fee for service type of environment. A typical routine ER visit cost $360 dollars not including lads or meds.
 
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In all honesty, a single payer system is the only way we'll get healthcare with equal access to everyone. We're just going to have to decide what is more important....individual economic autonomy or the general public health. Neither is wrong.....though the US *is* the only country that does it the way we do it.
 
MountainPharmD said:
How do you change to a fee for service type of environment. A typical routine ER visit cost $360 dollars not including lads or meds.
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It won't cost $360.00 if:

  • Every visit is paid for and they don't have to over bill to cover the uninsured.
  • They are paid in cash at the time if service at the price they request. Yes and ER visit is billed at $360.00, that's because they only get reimbursed $175.00

WVUPharm2007 said:
In all honesty, a single payer system is the only way we'll get healthcare with equal access to everyone. We're just going to have to decide what is more important....individual economic autonomy or the general public health. Neither is wrong.....though the US *is* the only country that does it the way we do it.
Click to expand...

First, your premise is not correct. Where does a single payer system work?
  • Canada: Long waits for treatment
  • England: No Dental Care. ALL Dentists left the Health System.
  • Europe: Long waits for treatment, economies struggling to pay for the system they have.

We have the best medical care in the world, we just finance it backasswards.

You do not have to choose between individual autonomy or general public health. The system described above gives access to all equally.
 
I don't believe employers should be responsible health insurance for employees. Everyone should be responsible for their own healthcare...
 
Epic said:
I don't believe employers should be responsible health insurance for employees. Everyone should be responsible for their own healthcare...
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Employers are not responsible, they originally offered health insurance as a benefit to attract workers. At the time, medical insurance was not the albatross it has become.

Benefits are one of the things you consider when deciding where to work including:

  • Vacation
  • Sick Time
  • Personal Time
  • Health Insurance
  • Retirement/Pension/401K
  • Continuing Education/Professional Development
  • Company Car
  • Employee Discount
  • Expense Account
None of these are responsibilities. The employer selects the benefits that will attract the kind of applicant they are seeking to fill a specific position.
 
Epic said:
I don't believe employers should be responsible health insurance for employees. Everyone should be responsible for their own healthcare...
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What did you say? I couldn't read your post, because I was distracted by that bird :meanie:.
 
Old Timer said:
Employers are not responsible, they originally offered health insurance as a benefit to attract workers. At the time, medical insurance was not the albatross it has become.

Benefits are one of the things you consider when deciding where to work including:

  • Vacation
  • Sick Time
  • Personal Time
  • Health Insurance
  • Retirement/Pension/401K
  • Continuing Education/Professional Development
  • Company Car
  • Employee Discount
  • Expense Account
None of these are responsibilities. The employer selects the benefits that will attract the kind of applicant they are seeking to fill a specific position.
Click to expand...


Exactly....but an employer who doesn't provide healthcare has almost zero chance of hiring quality employee...and now every American expects health care coverage should be provided by the employer.
 
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SpirivaSunrise said:
I really doubt socialized medicine would ever fly here...the mentality just isn't there. Socialized insurance on the other hand may be a little more realistic...that way the systems (facilities/providers) remain private.
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what?
 
Epic said:
Exactly....but an employer who doesn't provide healthcare has almost zero chance of hiring quality employee...and now every American expects health care coverage should be provided by the employer.
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In a capitalistic system, that's the way the cookie crumbles. I'm happy to let you be king as long as I can have a small space for myself, like Hawaii.

IF I were elected President, the employer would be prohibited from purchasing insurance so they would have four options:

  • Keep the money for themselves
  • Give the money to the employee's HSA
  • Give the money to the employee as salary.
  • Any combination of the above.
Now it's a straight financial transaction between the employer and the employee.

99% of the administration of health care is out of the system and costs would plummet, making the system more affordable.
 
SpirivaSunrise said:
What what...

you think we'd jump from decentralized to socialized med overnight?
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Do you really think it's that much of a stretch? The only difference between socialized medicine and what we have now is:

Costs:
Paid for by the employers and employees as premiums and as taxes for the poor and uninsured as opposed to straight taxation.

​
Control:
Now controlled by insurance company bureaucrats as opposed to government bureaucrats.​
 
SpirivaSunrise said:
What what...

you think we'd jump from decentralized to socialized med overnight?
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I don't even register to vote because I don't want to serve Jury duty.

I'm a non paying full fledge member of the NRA.
I believe in minimal welfare for adults.
I believe in Flat taxation of 21%
I'm spritual but not religious
I believe in strong military but I'm pro choice.
I blieve in sexual and religious freedom but I'm against multilateral international negotiation dealing with countries that affect American interest.

I'm very right on some issues....but very left on some issues...

But I don't discuss politics with friends..
 
Old Timer said:
Do you really think it's that much of a stretch? The only difference between socialized medicine and what we have now is:

Costs:
Paid for by the employers and employees as premiums and as taxes for the poor and uninsured as opposed to straight taxation.

​
Control:
Now controlled by insurance company bureaucrats as opposed to government bureaucrats.​
Click to expand...

No...that is the difference between socialized insurance and what we have now. With socialized medicine, the government is not only responsible for financing, but controls the providers as well. I can't imagine systems in the US ever being government-run.
 
SpirivaSunrise said:
No...that is the difference between socialized insurance and what we have now. With socialized medicine, the government is not only responsible for financing, but controls the providers as well. I can't imagine systems in the US ever being government-run.
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Did you read what I said:

Paid for by straight taxation.
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Since only the government can tax and since taxation is the only way the government gets money, the government controls all financing.

Controlled by government bureaucrats, is that any clearer....

What I described is socialized medicine..... It will NEVER EVER happen here.
 
I don't know if we'll have socialized medicine...but I know something that will never happen in the US.. Indian Slaves..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eyXdca-K7U[/youtube]
 
Old Timer said:
Did you read what I said:

Since only the government can tax and since taxation is the only way the government gets money, the government controls all financing.

Controlled by government bureaucrats, is that any clearer....

What I described is socialized medicine..... It will NEVER EVER happen here.
Click to expand...

Calm down, I agree with you! But you started off by saying that what we have now isn't much of a stretch from socialized medicine...

i.e. you're only talking about funding and not necessarily who facilities/providers work for
 
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SpirivaSunrise said:
Calm down, I agree with you! But you started off by saying that what we have now isn't much of a stretch from socialized medicine...

i.e. you're only talking about funding and not necessarily who facilities/providers work for
Click to expand...

The problem is the patient has lost control of the process to insurance companies. They are exerting the same kind of controls the government would. It's not a stretch at all. It's actually pretty close.....
 
Old Timer said:
The problem is the patient has lost control of the process to insurance companies. They are exerting the same kind of controls the government would. It's not a stretch at all. It's actually pretty close.....
Click to expand...

But health care providers, hospitals, pharmacies...all of these systems...we aren't government employees (which is the case in socialized medicine).
 
Old Timer said:
First, your premise is not correct. Where does a single payer system work?
  • Canada: Long waits for treatment
  • England: No Dental Care. ALL Dentists left the Health System.
  • Europe: Long waits for treatment, economies struggling to pay for the system they have.

We have the best medical care in the world, we just finance it backasswards.

You do not have to choose between individual autonomy or general public health. The system described above gives access to all equally.
Click to expand...

No, my premise is correct. Why would the mechanism by which healthcare is paid for change wait times? That is ridiculous. If you increase the ACCESS people have, the more stress is put on the system. In the US, the stress is suppressed by limiting access to millions of people. Single payer health works in several countries. France is typically considered the #1 healthcare system in the world and it's socialized. What is the US? Like #30-something?
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
No, my premise is correct. Why would the mechanism by which healthcare is paid for change wait times? That is ridiculous. If you increase the ACCESS people have, the more stress is put on the system. In the US, the stress is suppressed by limiting access to millions of people. Single payer health works in several countries. France is typically considered the #1 healthcare system in the world and it's socialized. What is the US? Like #30-something?
Click to expand...

37...last I heard
 
Epic said:
I don't even register to vote because I don't want to serve Jury duty.

I'm a non paying full fledge member of the NRA.
I believe in minimal welfare for adults.
I believe in Flat taxation of 21%
I'm spritual but not religious
I believe in strong military but I'm pro choice.
I blieve in sexual and religious freedom but I'm against multilateral international negotiation dealing with countries that affect American interest.

I'm very right on some issues....but very left on some issues...

But I don't discuss politics with friends..
Click to expand...

Flat tax of 21%!?!?!?!?! Sheese...How about a 10% flat tax, no excemptions or exceptions.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
No, my premise is correct. Why would the mechanism by which healthcare is paid for change wait times? That is ridiculous. If you increase the ACCESS people have, the more stress is put on the system. In the US, the stress is suppressed by limiting access to millions of people. Single payer health works in several countries. France is typically considered the #1 healthcare system in the world and it's socialized. What is the US? Like #30-something?
Click to expand...

France spends like 10% of their GDP on healthcare...we're around 15% I think. Biggest difference between us, which accounts for the ranking difference...is the # of uninsured. But the providers in both countries are private. France has their problems too though, they use fee-for-service which then leads to increased utilization...and provides no incentives to hold down costs.
 
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WVUPharm2007 said:
No, my premise is correct. Why would the mechanism by which healthcare is paid for change wait times? That is ridiculous. If you increase the ACCESS people have, the more stress is put on the system. In the US, the stress is suppressed by limiting access to millions of people. Single payer health works in several countries. France is typically considered the #1 healthcare system in the world and it's socialized. What is the US? Like #30-something?
Click to expand...

I can't speak for what goes on in France. I do know France recently kicked out the socialists I don't know how much, if anything, health care had to do with it. I do know when the government cannot afford to pay for health care, they deny or ration care and increase wait times to see a doctor. It's happened every place there is socialized medicine.
 
Old Timer said:
I can't speak for what goes on in France. I do know France recently kicked out the socialists I don't know how much, if anything, health care had to do with it. I do know when the government cannot afford to pay for health care, they deny or ration care and increase wait times to see a doctor. It's happened every place there is socialized medicine.
Click to expand...

Yeah....because there is a greater stress on the system. There's never been a system in which everyone is covered...but at the same time they are covered under the umbrella of a third party insurance company. It's never existed because most realize that the middle man really isn't needed. I really don't think having a person whose goal is to make money control healthcare access....yet that's how the US is. Now if there was a system where insurance companies did NOT have the final say into who gets what surgery or drug...but some other third party who acts as a medical consultant that would not stand to make any cash off of the deal..I guess that would work...
 
Old Timer, it sounds like what your saying is health care should be fee for service based so patients have an understanding of the cost and do not waste resourses. Employers could no longer pay for health insurance primiums. They however could contribute to a heath savings account the employee manages. My only question is, what do the rest of the people do who are not covered by a employer health savings account?
 
MountainPharmD said:
Old Timer, it sounds like what your saying is health care should be fee for service based so patients have an understanding of the cost and do not waste resourses. Employers could no longer pay for health insurance primiums. They however could contribute to a heath savings account the employee manages. My only question is, what do the rest of the people do who are not covered by a employer health savings account?
Click to expand...
I just read that your member status says, "Egotestical maniac". That's freakin' hilarious. These inside jokes are getting good...
But now it's time for this girl to get her beauty sleep. Maybe I can swing an eight hour night shift with my pillow???
 
MountainPharmD said:
Old Timer, it sounds like what your saying is health care should be fee for service based so patients have an understanding of the cost and do not waste resourses. Employers could no longer pay for health insurance primiums. They however could contribute to a heath savings account the employee manages. My only question is, what do the rest of the people do who are not covered by a employer health savings account?
Click to expand...


Jayhawks Sux!
 
OK...here is a better way to spend 45 minutes..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Ryj1ywoqw[/youtube]
 
PharmDstudent said:
I just read that your member status says, "Egotestical maniac". That's freakin' hilarious. These inside jokes are getting good...
But now it's time for this girl to get her beauty sleep. Maybe I can swing an eight hour night shift with my pillow???
Click to expand...

Jayhawks rock!!!!! Gonna win our first national championship this year!!!

Epic said I could have the title so I took it!
 
MountainPharmD said:
Jayhawks rock!!!!! Gonna win our first national championship this year!!!

Epic said I could have the title so I took it!
Click to expand...


Dood...have you stepped outside this morning yet? Aint it perfect??
 
This is why I moved here. Weather doesn't get any better than this. I checked the weather for Colorado. Tomorrow a high of 36 with snow showers all day. I think I will go out and ride my motorcycle......
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
No, my premise is correct. Why would the mechanism by which healthcare is paid for change wait times? That is ridiculous. If you increase the ACCESS people have, the more stress is put on the system. In the US, the stress is suppressed by limiting access to millions of people. Single payer health works in several countries. France is typically considered the #1 healthcare system in the world and it's socialized. What is the US? Like #30-something?
Click to expand...

The study you site that was use by Roger More was FLAWED. Please sign up to be Epic's slave and learn to read the research. The study that showed us 30th did not factor in murders or other non natural causes of death. When you factor in things that are controlled by the health care system we are in the top 5, though I don't remember where, it's either one or two....
 
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