Pharmacy School Rankings

[NickW9682]

I come across a lot of posters stating that the pharmacy school rankings don't matter. How are the rankings not important? It seems completely ridiculous to me that the rankings would not matter.

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[owlegrad]

How does News and World Reports rank pharmacy schools? What is the methodology?

 

[BadgerPharm]

US News Health Rankings Methodology "All the health rankings are based solely on the results of peer assessment surveys sent to deans, other administrators, and/or faculty at accredited degree programs or schools in each discipline. All schools surveyed in a discipline were sent the same number of surveys. Respondents rated the academic quality of programs on a 5-point scale: outstanding (5), strong (4), good (3), adequate (2), or marginal (1). They were instructed to select "don't know" if they did not have enough knowledge to rate a program. Only fully accredited programs in good standing during the survey period are ranked. Those schools with the highest average scores appear."

 

[BadgerPharm]

Seems like a strange way to rank schools, does it not?

 

[delano2000]

Seems like a strange way to rank schools, does it not?

 

[owlegrad]

Seems like a strange way to rank schools, does it not?

Worse than strange, borderline useless. Nothing about attrition, % acceptance vs % attendance, employment rate of graduates, first time board passing rate, research, facility, faculty, etc. Just a survey. Anyone know the kinds of biases this sort of methodology is subject to?

 

[chemguy79]

I come across a lot of posters stating that the pharmacy school rankings don't matter. How are the rankings not important? It seems completely ridiculous to me that the rankings would not matter.

Rankings CAN be useful; However, the rankings that are currently in use are not useful to determine the caliber of students attending and graduating from said university.

 

[Lagunatic]

Worse than strange, borderline useless. Nothing about attrition, % acceptance vs % attendance, employment rate of graduates, first time board passing rate, research, facility, faculty, etc. Just a survey. Anyone know the kinds of biases this sort of methodology is subject to?

So that mean that these rankings are useless? Are the deans and faculty able to weigh their curriculum, quality of rotation sites, reputation of faculty, and overall quality of their pharmacy students to other schools? I would hope so.

These are the same faculty who interview applicants for residencies, who go to medical conventions, and who make up the upper echelon of the pharmacy network today. They are the technical experts who teach us how to be pharmacists and they know the outcome of their work.

Even if the ranking system is flawed, there is always the human bias of which schools better prepare pharmacists because of the overall quality of applicants who are accepted.

But I remind you that my opinion is my opinion.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

It matters to the douchebags in academia. Everyone in the real world could give two ****s.

 

[Lagunatic]

It matters to the douchebags in academia. Everyone in the real world could give two ****s.

I currently work in the "real world" and it matters here. While it's still who you know, not what you know. Knowing where you came from, can help to predict where you're going.

 

[CareDD]

Pharmacy schools are like vehicles I imagine. There are people who care what car you are driving (Toyota vs. Audi) and judge you by first impression. On the other hand, there are also people who don't care what the heck you are driving, it's essentially just a vehicle to carry you around. It's essentially just a pharmacy school to teach you how to become a pharmacist. But as the job market gets saturated, pharmacy demand slows down, first impression could be important

 

[owlegrad]

It matters to the douchebags in academia. Everyone in the real world could give two ****s.

^Is a pharmacist

I currently work in the "real world" and it matters here. While it's still who you know, not what you know. Knowing where you came from, can help to predict where you're going.

Here is a fun idea. Ask 5 pharmacists to name three schools in the top 10. If they can, you might be on to something.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I currently work in the "real world" and it matters here. While it's still who you know, not what you know. Knowing where you came from, can help to predict where you're going.

No, I'm pretty sure nobody cares.

If someone is going to hire a new employee, the selection criteria is as follows:

1) Connections to bosses of person making hiring decision
2) Connections to the person doing the hiring
2) Work history
3) Did the candidate go to school of person doing the hiring
4a) If female, is candidate hot.
4b) If male or average looking female, quality of interview
5) coin flip
6) school candidate went to

 

[CareDD]

No, I'm pretty sure nobody cares.

If someone is going to hire a new employee, the selection criteria is as follows:

1) Connections to bosses of person making hiring decision
2) Connections to the person doing the hiring
2) Work history
3) Did the candidate go to school of person doing the hiring
4a) If female, is candidate hot.
4b) If male or average looking female, quality of interview
5) coin flip
6) school candidate went to

lol coin flip is even better than which school you go to

 

[ladnar]

Granted, I'm only a first year student, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. That being said, I don't really think ranking is that big of a deal. Don't get me wrong, going to UCSF, I love the education here, and I really do think that the caliber of faculty and students here is quite excellent, but I personally don't put too much stock into the ranking here.

In terms of picking schools to apply to, it's really about what you want from the school. I wanted to go to UCSF because of the unique way their program is designed and the location. Once I knew I wanted to go there, the ranking didn't even matter. I applied to schools that I felt were good for me, which meant applying to schools that were in all parts of the rankings.

If you really want to go to a certain school because of what you know about the school, does the ranking really matter, even if it's ranked at 50 or 60? Conversely, if you really want to go to a top school because you like what you've heard or you like what you've read about it, does the fact that it's ranked 1 or 5 really matter? Don't let ranking replace basic knowledge about the school.

Again, this is only my opinion, and since I'm a first year student, I fully admit that I don't know anything about "real life" stuff.

 

[NickW9682]

Not trying to get everyone's panties in a wad...calm down. I'm just curious b/c in every other occupational realm it tends to actually matter. (a lot)

 

[NickW9682]

Worse than strange, borderline useless. Nothing about attrition, % acceptance vs % attendance, employment rate of graduates, first time board passing rate, research, facility, faculty, etc. Just a survey. Anyone know the kinds of biases this sort of methodology is subject to?

sounds like someone is bitter

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Pharmacy is so regionalized that a true ranking is nearly impossible. More times than not, students will chose to go to their state school where a PharmD can be had for a reasonable sum. Do you think a kid from the East Coast is going to go to USC, Texas, or UCSF? I mean...maybe...but those names don't ring out very well on the East Coast. Just like I'm sure Temple, Rutgers, or WVU ellicit a "Who?" response in California.

 

[owlegrad]

Huh? I am not bitter. Just pointing out some flaws in the ranking system. Why would I be bitter? It's not like I am being ranked personally. :laughy:

sounds like someone is bitter

 

[BenJammin]

I come across a lot of posters stating that the pharmacy school rankings don't matter. How are the rankings not important? It seems completely ridiculous to me that the rankings would not matter.

Because they are not based on any published statistical data. Your school being ranked higher than mine isn't impressive if none of your grads are being hired.

 

[DrDrugs2012]

First of all, education does not matter one bit after your first job in pharmacy. After your first job, your prospective employers are only looking to see what experience you bring to the table. Academics is supposed to be a measure of potential, not outcome.

It is 100% true that for the past decade it mattered not one bit where you went to pharmacy school when it came to securing a job. The reason for this? Simply that with the growth in the number of community pharmacies, especially among the big retail chains, there were more jobs available than pharmacists able to fill them. Pharmacists were also beginning to be hired in larger numbers in other areas of healthcare - hospitals, managed care, pharmaceutical industry - everywhere. As a result, pharmacy graduates have been fooled into believing that where one attends school does not matter.

Yes, others on this thread are very correct - nepotism and regional influences certainly do exist. But that nepotism only stretches so far. If the person who you know is not the hiring manager, or an extraordinarily trusted colleague of the hiring manager, nepotism is largely meaningless. Usually, an employee referral with a large corporation is flagged by human resources. Depending on the nature of the position and referral, this often means that the applicant will receive an interview, either as courtesy or on merit - but that does not mean that the job is the applicant's for the taking. It is also a very fair point that employers have a stronger tendency to hire applicants from educational programs with whom they have a professional relationship or prior experience. It makes very little sense, for example, to compare two candidates knowing one can likely perform well while the other is a question mark. However, that assumes that the question mark exists - it often does not. I bet you that the human resources employee responsible for hiring pharmacists (specifically) at most of these large corporations knows precisely which schools are reputable (defined as producing the candidates of greatest demand).

The reality is that if you want a job in any community pharmacy, regardless of the struggling economy, you can find a position somewhere. It might not be ideal, you might need to go far from home, but you'll eventually find one. But that isn't the same as finding the job you want. There is still no denying that when it came to filling specific jobs, notably one's first job post-graduation, there is a premium placed by employers on the education attained. I have witnessed interviews at prestigious fellowships and noted that every single candidate was from a top university. I have audited HR files in a pharmaceutical company and seen that the candidates offered positions were rarely from the University of Phoenix-es of the world. The top 20 or so pharmacy schools place their students in approximately 35-40% of all residency vacancies - and it only gets worse every single year as the competition for residencies increase. Whether you like it or not, where you go to school increasingly becomes a simple way of weeding out applicants - the same way that many pharmacy schools simply use a high GPA and PharmCAS score as a cutoff to easily eliminate candidates even if someone who didn't make the cutoff was someone who cured cancer and won the Nobel prize. Its just makes the task much simpler.

But this isn't to say that students who attend unranked schools are incapable of achieving much. That would be patently false. I would bet my house that there a student at each and every single unranked school who is not only deserving of their job of choice, but given the right authority, I would accept into a position of employment or school before at least half of the students at a top 10 school. There is no shortage of talent at schools of 'lesser rank', but it is also undeniable that as a general rule, top students are attracted to top schools, as a general rule, and they flock to those schools in large numbers. It is not that you will attend an unranked school and be unsuccessful in life (such notions are groundless).

There is one truth to take to heart in all of this: attending a school widely recognized as offering superior education opens more doors for you than attending one which does not.... but just because the door is open doesn't mean you get to walk through it - you must still earn your entry to the other side.

There are notable exceptions - for those interested in the pharmaceutical industry track, I would strongly consider attending Philadelphia College of Pharmacy and Sciences (or whatever the heck they call themselves these days... they keep changing names), Rutgers, or Massachusetts College of Pharmacy. All three have a heavy focus on industry and have cultivated relationships with pharma companies so that you will have more opportunities there. I am sure there are a few schools on the west coast with similar relationships with the biotechs in California, but I don't know who those schools are or the nature of their relationship with pharma (thus proving that to some degree, region does matter!).

 

[Nelcovp]

My Orgo professor seems to think its extremely important to go the better ranked school if accepted. If one plans on taking a post grad residency, the school you attended is important.

He is convinced I should go to UofA if accepted. MWU is 10 minutes from my house (I only have 7 years left to pay for it). UofA would required relocating and either selling my house at a massive loss or take my chances with the rental market. Is the different rankings really worth turning my life completely upside down? Something tells me it is not.

 

[Rx MPLS]

My Orgo professor seems to think its extremely important to go the better ranked school if accepted. If one plans on taking a post grad residency, the school you attended is important.

He is convinced I should go to UofA if accepted. MWU is 10 minutes from my house (I only have 7 years left to pay for it). UofA would required relocating and either selling my house at a massive loss or take my chances with the rental market. Is the different rankings really worth turning my life completely upside down? Something tells me it is not.

Choose the school that allows you to finish with less debt overall. Massive amounts of extra costs/debt, whether from relocation or tuition, should probably be avoided if possible. I wish a school was within 10 minutes of my house!

 

[DelawareStudent]

I currently work in the "real world" and it matters here. While it's still who you know, not what you know. Knowing where you came from, can help to predict where you're going.

You know what they call the guy who graduated dead-last in his pharmacy class at the number 1 ranked school? PharmD - just like all the other grads.

As a person whose spent a significant time as a hiring manager, I'll take demonstrated aptitude over pedigree every day of the week, and so will 98.721%(seriously, I've done the math) of other hiring managers.

 

[DrDrugs2012]

You know what they call the guy who graduated dead-last in his pharmacy class at the number 1 ranked school? PharmD - just like all the other grads.

As a person whose spent a significant time as a hiring manager, I'll take demonstrated aptitude over pedigree every day of the week, and so will 98.721%(seriously, I've done the math) of other hiring managers.

Ofcourse demonstrated aptitude trumps pedigree. Hence why anyone with a single solitary brain cell agrees that experience trumps no experience and why the education one received doesn't mean diddly squat after you get your first job. Didn't need a PharmD to arrive at that conclusion....

But when it comes down to deciding who to select for a job interview, two candidates, one first in class in last ranked school and one first in class in the first ranked school, with all else being equal, anyone who tells me they would opt the former over the latter is just fooling themselves.

 

[delano2000]

Ofcourse demonstrated aptitude trumps pedigree. Hence why anyone with a single solitary brain cell agrees that experience trumps no experience and why the education one received doesn't mean diddly squat after you get your first job. Didn't need a PharmD to arrive at that conclusion....

But when it comes down to deciding who to select for a job interview, two candidates, one first in class in last ranked school and one first in class in the first ranked school, with all else being equal, anyone who tells me they would opt the former over the latter is just fooling themselves.

I honestly doubt that many of those interviewers would care significantly about ranking (I assume many of them would not be able to tell you the top 5 according to US News). I think people would be more inclined to choose someone who attended an established school with a good reputation over one with a bad reputation with no connections/establishment. Just my $0.02

 

[DelawareStudent]

Ofcourse demonstrated aptitude trumps pedigree. Hence why anyone with a single solitary brain cell agrees that experience trumps no experience and why the education one received doesn't mean diddly squat after you get your first job. Didn't need a PharmD to arrive at that conclusion....

But when it comes down to deciding who to select for a job interview, two candidates, one first in class in last ranked school and one first in class in the first ranked school, with all else being equal, anyone who tells me they would opt the former over the latter is just fooling themselves.

I defer back to the list early in the post where coin-flip trumps school choice.

 

[DrDrugs2012]

I honestly doubt that many of those interviewers would care significantly about ranking (I assume many of them would not be able to tell you the top 5 according to US News). I think people would be more inclined to choose someone who attended an established school with a good reputation over one with a bad reputation with no connections/establishment. Just my $0.02

You're right. They can't tell you the top 5. But they can probably guess at least fifteen of the top 25 based on the reputation. And you're right, they don't care about the rank number, they care about what that number means.

But you all need to realize that its not about the ranking itself. Its what the rank represents. The rank is an indirect measure of how a school is perceived by others. No one says "oh you went to the number one undegraduate school"; they say "oh, you went to harvard".

I'm not here trying to say rankings are a good thing (they arent), nor that they are done in the optimal manner (they aren't) or even that they are a useful tool of measurement (they aren't). But the reality is that people in hiring positions in fellowships, residencies and jobs DO look at where a student earned his or her PharmD. And you're fooling yourself if you think that the hiring manager doesn't know which schools are the most 'prestigious'. Given equal two candidates, they will default to the student from the prestigious school 9 times out of 10 simply because they perceive that the student had to a) have been of high quality to be accepted at the school, b) must have gained a better education and therefore have greater aptitude on the job, comparatively.

It doesn't matter if its true or not - its how things are perceived. I point back to the statistics that the overwhelming majority of students being accepted into prestigious fellowships and residencies are from the 'top ranked schools'. Thats all the evidence I need to point at to show you that things have changed from a time when it didn't matter one iota where you did your PharmD because there were more openings than people to fill them. That is no longer the case, and as long as the people doing the hiring have upper hand, they are going to default to the student they perceive to be better.... and with equal apps, that will be the higher ranked school.

I defer back to the list early in the post where coin-flip trumps school choice.

I don't take you seriously.

 

[DelawareStudent]

I honestly doubt that many of those interviewers would care significantly about ranking (I assume many of them would not be able to tell you the top 5 according to US News). I think people would be more inclined to choose someone who attended an established school with a good reputation over one with a bad reputation with no connections/establishment. Just my $0.02

 

[delano2000]

You're right. They can't tell you the top 5. But they can probably guess at least fifteen of the top 25 based on the reputation. And you're right, they don't care about the rank number, they care about what that number means.

But you all need to realize that its not about the ranking itself. Its what the rank represents. The rank is an indirect measure of how a school is perceived by others. No one says "oh you went to the number one undegraduate school"; they say "oh, you went to harvard".

I'm not here trying to say rankings are a good thing (they arent), nor that they are done in the optimal manner (they aren't) or even that they are a useful tool of measurement (they aren't). But the reality is that people in hiring positions in fellowships, residencies and jobs DO look at where a student earned his or her PharmD. And you're fooling yourself if you think that the hiring manager doesn't know which schools are the most 'prestigious'. Given equal two candidates, they will default to the student from the prestigious school 9 times out of 10 simply because they perceive that the student had to a) have been of high quality to be accepted at the school, b) must have gained a better education and therefore have greater aptitude on the job, comparatively.

It doesn't matter if its true or not - its how things are perceived. I point back to the statistics that the overwhelming majority of students being accepted into prestigious fellowships and residencies are from the 'top ranked schools'. Thats all the evidence I need to point at to show you that things have changed from a time when it didn't matter one iota where you did your PharmD because there were more openings than people to fill them. That is no longer the case, and as long as the people doing the hiring have upper hand, they are going to default to the student they perceive to be better.... and with equal apps, that will be the higher ranked school.

Here's my issue, I honestly would not be able to tell you 15 of the "top 25" schools based on that ranking system either. I can definitely tell you schools that have really good reputations based on knowledge, annecdotes, research that I've done and boards pass rate. Harvard is not prestigious because someone made up a list and said it was, it's prestigious based on the reputation and quality of students it generally generates. The rankings I've seen for schools like Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Yale etc are from reputable souces and is not done similarly to the one for Pharmacy. A bunch of deans from pharm schools giving their opinions, biased or unbiased, should not be used in a ranking scheme like that, at least they have to include other things as well.

Not sure if you're a pre-pharm, pharm student or pharmacist, but from talking to pharmacists over the yrs the concensus is that reputation is pretty important and they don't use that rank list from US News.

Sorry for the rambling but it's early in the morning and I am not yet fully awake.

 

[owlegrad]

We seem to be having to different conversations. No one is saying that reputation does not matter. Some people are simply explaining that the news and world reports ranking is NOT used to hire pharmacists. I have never met a pharmacist who thinks it is.

 

[DelawareStudent]

We seem to be having to different conversations. No one is saying that reputation does not matter. Some people are simply explaining that the news and world reports ranking is NOT used to hire pharmacists. I have never met a pharmacist who thinks it is.

10 Moderator Points

 

[iBeast]

The list is from 2008 anyways. The problem is it's the first link that shows up on google when you search "top 10 pharmacy schools" etc.

 

[delano2000]

We seem to be having to different conversations. No one is saying that reputation does not matter. Some people are simply explaining that the news and world reports ranking is NOT used to hire pharmacists. I have never met a pharmacist who thinks it is.

I know that. He mentioned prestige of school and I pretty much just made a correlation between that and the reputation of the school...i kinda went off topic LOL

 

[DrDrugs2012]

Correct, the actual number associated with the rank doesn't matter. But no one is saying that the numerical value is what hiring managers go by - we are discussing what the rankings are indicative of. The rankings are still based on something... and that something IS the reputation of the school. In the case of the silly US News rankings, its reflective of how the peer schools view one another... or in other words, the reputation that the school has in the academic circle.

Now that may not mean much to a lot of people, and understandably so because the idea of ranking academic programs in pharmacy is about as productive as trying to eat spaghetti longest noodle first. But to a hiring manager, the rank is reflective of reputation and the two are effectively synonymous. So for anyone to say reputation matters, rank does not, is in a sense contradicting themselves. The two have identical meaning primarily because the manner in which the rankings were made was based entirely on the reputation of the school in the first place.

Now obviously, the exception is personal experience. If a hiring manager has previously hired employees from two schools and in comparing graduate of school A versus B, the manager may be able to determine which is a more rigorous program, that students from one school fare better, etc. But that's not a decision based on reputation, its one based on experience... and thats not what we are considering in this academic discussion.

 

[owlegrad]

I know that. He mentioned prestige of school and I pretty much just made a correlation between that and the reputation of the school...i kinda went off topic LOL

That wasn't directed at you specifically, I just thought it would help to tease the two out.

 

[Rxbuddy]

So if a school was ranked in early 30's and another close to 50 and you like the latter better, would any of you pick the higher ranked school solely based on ranking?

 

[Lagunatic]

You know what they call the guy who graduated dead-last in his pharmacy class at the number 1 ranked school? PharmD - just like all the other grads.

As a person whose spent a significant time as a hiring manager, I'll take demonstrated aptitude over pedigree every day of the week, and so will 98.721%(seriously, I've done the math) of other hiring managers.

We are on the same side. We do not hire scientists and engineers because they merely graduated from UC Berkeley or Stanford. We hire based on their technical expertise, communication skills, and ability to work well with our team. "Knowing where you are from helps to predict where you are going," is related to a person's work ethic, recommendations, and motivation. I believe it can also relate to one's school because time and time again, certain schools produce "superstar" scientists and engineers. But that's why there is the "interview" to make sure that you getting the real deal and not an embellished shell.


However, I still believe that finding the right school can give you advantages for your future career. For example. if you were interested in health care policy then you might want to attend USC for their dual PharmD/MPH degree program or UCSF for their pathway in Health Services and Policy Research. Both of these schools would have an established curriculum/network, which can be an advantage for the future pharmacist in my opinion, but in no way does it compensate for pharmacy acumen, communication, or overall amiability.

 

[owlegrad]

10 Moderator Points

Thanks?

 

[DelawareStudent]

Thanks?

....for refocusing of the topic

 

[owlegrad]

....for refocusing of the topic

No one has ever given me Moderator Points, so I wasn't sure how to take it.

 

[DelawareStudent]

Well, I wanted to make sure you had something for your resume in case you went to a poorly ranked school.

 

[owlegrad]

Well, I wanted to make sure you had something for your resume in case you went to a poorly ranked school.

Hmm, would that go under Awards I wonder? Or maybe Achievements?

Can I trade them in for Mod Upgrades? Like +1 banning or +2 thread locking?

 

[owlegrad]

Oh and I will have you know I go to a top 10 school, so I can go anywhere and do anything I want after I graduate. I could even practice medicine in some states.

 

[Conflagration]

Hmm, would that go under Awards I wonder? Or maybe Achievements?

Can I trade them in for Mod Upgrades? Like +1 banning or +2 thread locking?

Go for broke, attain Internet Win, cast when a person rolls 6+ on their die roll.

*gives you a d20*

 

[DelawareStudent]

Go for broke, attain Internet Win, cast when a person rolls 6+ on their die roll.

*gives you a d20*

I cast "Magic Missile"

 

[xtsukiyox]

Oh and I will have you know I go to a top 10 school, so I can go anywhere and do anything I want after I graduate. I could even practice medicine in some states.

He is... the most interesting pharm student in the world.

He is convinced I should go to UofA if accepted. MWU is 10 minutes from my house (I only have 7 years left to pay for it). UofA would required relocating and either selling my house at a massive loss or take my chances with the rental market. Is the different rankings really worth turning my life completely upside down? Something tells me it is not.

MWU-CPG & U of A seem to have very different focuses. Both will get you the PharmD - U of A has a research bent, much moreso than MWU.

I live about 20 minutes away, give or take, and am further from paying off the house (er, actually, not that close at all). You can see which side I landed on.

I cast "Magic Missile"

"I am Galstaff, Sorcerer of Light!" ... Hoo boy.

 

[Corpseman]

He is... the most interesting pharm student in the world.



MWU-CPG & U of A seem to have very different focuses. Both will get you the PharmD - U of A has a research bent, much moreso than MWU.

I live about 20 minutes away, give or take, and am further from paying off the house (er, actually, not that close at all). You can see which side I landed on.



"I am Galstaff, Sorcerer of Light!" ... Hoo boy.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zng5kRle4FA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[rxlea]

Also much more "clinically focused". Dual degree opportunities. Affiliated with UMC. Interdisciplinary opportunities. They do stress residency a bit much in some classes. But we do have some professors that are super big on MTM and ambulatory care.

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