PharmD and MD Differences

[tackett26]

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you've either got some sort of extreme insecurity about respect in professions or your just ignorant/and/or naive about the current situation.

time and time again i've seen more respect given to MDs than PhDs by default. thats not to say that PhDs aren't respectable...again this goes down to what have you done for me attitude. the PhD researchers at my school who did really good work were above and beyond the physicians who did routine surgeries. but as a whole, and excluding the rockstar outliers in both physicians and PhDs, average MDs are given more respect as a result of the rigor of getting in and completing medicine/residency than your average PhD researcher/postdoc. its a fact of life.

anyway back to the nametag distinction. I suspect that the above reason along with making sure that physicians are given distinct titles so people know whos capable of practicing and who is not was the reason why they wanted only MDs to have Dr. before their title.

also...this has nothing to do with the OP...so why are we on this topic again???

dude...i feel like im talking to wall. you're that dense. its sad.

let me clarify your idiocy point by point so that you may just shutup...

You seriously believe that GPA is the best indicator of aptitude

I never said it was a good indicator of APTITUDE...just that medical school is much more difficult to gain acceptance...it requires more work to get into it-i.e. higher GPA. and dont pull the BS about classwork and courses taken. the vast, and i mean THE VAST majority of medical students are science majors. SCIENCE...as in they take classes alongside their future PhD science counterparts genius. this is based on STATISTICS...ever hear of that? perhaps you need to brush up on it.

what are you trying to imply? that somehow med students have higher GPAs because they take Bull courses? really? go announce that to the rest of the med students here...lets see what they say about that.

you really think that the vast majority of students in med school take the BARE MINIMUM? really? hmmm..


Does it concern you at all that the courses taken by a pre-med and someone going onto graduate school may be completely different depending on the school? For instance the bare minimum to get into a medical school is as follows: 2 semesters of biology, 2 semesters of general and organic chemistry (with their labs), 2 semesters of physics with lab, a math class, and an English class. An applicant who only took those classes would have a much lower GPA than someone (pre-med, pre-pharm, or Pre-PhD) who got a degree in biochem and survived 2 semesters of p-chem.

-wow..what are you saying now? that somehow the vast majority of students who are in med school took Bull**** courses to get thier high GPA? really? i wonder what the med students think of that....

but on that note, i took pchem. i majored in neuroscience. i also took biochem, physio, anatomy, genetics, cell bio, mol cell bio, almost every PhD intro neuro course(which was required for our major), and all the prerequisites for med school. i can also assure you that the vast majority of students who applied to med school at my school majored in some form of biology, chemistry, physics-man i cant even believe im defending med students


Secondly you have a great tendency to over generalize. It honestly depends on which PhD program you are going into. That is to say some are more competitive than others. The same is true for medical school.

- I never said all the PhD programs are the same. I mentioned my school because in biochemistry and biology it is a top ten program. its medical program is also top ten. as a result it was a decent comparison.

i know there are far more rigorous programs. Duke almost requires students to graduate top of class for PhD consideration. at least from waht I've heard...

thats not to say that this represents all programs...in general, getting into medical school is far more difficult. in fact, the national average for acceptance is about 3.6 GPAwise. for PhD? its about 3.0. THATS A FACT.

i am also not saying that somehow all PhDs are lower in value in anyway...merely that on average they are easier to get and less respected as a result. they really are dime a dozen.

In your vast ignorance you’ve missed the point that each of these doctorates is experts in their own field. I would not go to a physician to discuss my legal problems, but I would go to a lawyer for this. Likewise I wouldn’t go to a technician to talk about a complex drug interaction (rather you would go to a pharmacist)!

who ever disagreed with this? I certainly DID NOT. why even bring it up. of course they're all experts in their field. dude...your just rambbling now.

Additionally your first post read as follows “Even the PhD's ID tags did not carry PhD in front of it”- thus implying that your institution did not identify the expertise of their staff. Furthermore to say that a PhD is the same as a technician is ridiculous! Are you suggesting that an undergraduate degree is equivalent to the higher level course work, the qualifying exam, rotations, and dissertation required for a PhD.

yea the PhD tags didnt carry the PhD in front of it...so what? what do you mean identify experts on staff? they're researchers....they are not some sort of experts for patients to go up to and ask questions. the people they work alongside are all on the same page and know if they're PhDs or lab techs or PIs or postdocs etc. they are not in a patient care setting. therefore, there is no need for a distinction! ok? when you work in a research lab you ahve a hierarchy. that hierarchy is PI, postdoc, lab tech etc... in that order. everybody knows their roles.

I never said that a PhD and tech are the same...you are reading into what I wrote and trying to take things out of context. do you know what that makes you? a troll

and on that note...yes i know that my professors will be PhDs...so what?

and i never said PhDs dont contribute to medicine. again you take it out of context. trolling all over again. i even said that the best PhDs can outmatch even a good MD...

MY POINT IS NOT ABOUT MD VS PHD. it is absolutely not about that. just that giving a distinction that PhDs should be called Dr. in a medical setting such as a hospital is ridiculous. there's no need for it.

my second point is that PhDs are dime a dozen. its easy to get one. as a result their importance has been devalued over time. its not that somehow a PhD is worthless. it is absolutely essential for our economy to grow. but the problem is that the PhDs given out are not all equal and that the majority of them are not exactly that difficult to attain even if it is at a good school. they are cheap labor! as a result institutions are more than willing to give out PhD positions so that PIs can get cheap research labor. thats just HOW IT IS.

This really does not even disserve a response. You are clearly hung up on your own shortcomings with your GPA and medical school admission status.
Point 1: Statistics can be manipulated.
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics”
-Mark Twain

Point 2: PhDs are called upon to consult physicians in some instances. It happens more often than you might think.


And I’m not the one started this tangent. If anything you are the troll!

Point 3: Name tags that do not suggest a persons role within a health care setting makes for a dangerous practice in general.

 

[surag]

you ignore the gross msirepresentation of the facts and then go on to diss simple statistics.

its cute how you like to claim statistics lie...this is true. but not simple math.

the fact is med students have higher science GPA and overall GPA than entering PhD students....you cant lie about those numbers.

to go ahead and make the really weak claim 'stats lie' and then dismiss it with a stupid mark twain quote that is so cliche its borderline ridiculous is nothing but a copout. shame on you.

the statistics do not lie.

oh and btw...i didnt start this, you did...when you went off on the tangent and repeatedly shoved down our throats that dr. should be addressed for everyone.

i mentioned that its not safe and it can be dangerous and misleading.

i also mentioned how in a research setting theres really no need for it. only physicians need have the MD and dr. in front of their name.

to make this point clear...even the doctors who did pure research and did not do a residency did not have Dr. in front of their name(except for the chair). t

go figure.

i think you're just upset over the perceived slight that other professions outside of the MD profession seem to get.

from all of this I get a sense of insecurity because you're not an MD and thats why you're reacting so badly to this. I dont see why you should feel that way. as you've said a good pharmacist can be better than a doctor and I certainly wouldnt want my doctor to do a pharmacists job and vice versa.

you're just taking it to another ridiculous level.

 

[tackett26]

you ignore the gross msirepresentation of the facts and then go on to diss simple statistics.

its cute how you like to claim statistics lie...this is true. but not simple math.

the fact is med students have higher science GPA and overall GPA than entering PhD students....you cant lie about those numbers.

to go ahead and make the really weak claim 'stats lie' and then dismiss it with a stupid mark twain quote that is so cliche its borderline ridiculous is nothing but a copout. shame on you.

the statistics do not lie.

oh and btw...i didnt start this, you did...when you went off on the tangent and repeatedly shoved down our throats that dr. should be addressed for everyone.

i mentioned that its not safe and it can be dangerous and misleading.

i also mentioned how in a research setting theres really no need for it. only physicians need have the MD and dr. in front of their name.

to make this point clear...even the doctors who did pure research and did not do a residency did not have Dr. in front of their name(except for the chair). t

go figure.

i think you're just upset over the perceived slight that other professions outside of the MD profession seem to get.

from all of this I get a sense of insecurity because you're not an MD and thats why you're reacting so badly to this. I dont see why you should feel that way. as you've said a good pharmacist can be better than a doctor and I certainly wouldnt want my doctor to do a pharmacists job and vice versa.

you're just taking it to another ridiculous level.

If you don't think statistics can be manipulated Google "grade inflation."

And rightly all of the doctorates respectively have earned the right to sign their degree at the end of their name. You must also concede that it is far better to identify people by their respective area of expertise then to leave this for open interpretation.
And Frankly I don’t care that I am not in medical school. My grades and test scores were high enough to get in anywhere in the country. I am currently at the number 1 pharmacy school in the country and in most cases train alongside medical students.

 

[tackett26]

I've added this guy to my ignore list. I've had enough.

 

[orthomyxo]

The difference between pharmd and md is phar.

BRILLIANT!

 

[UES Girl]

I am currently at the number 1 pharmacy school in the country and in most cases train alongside medical students.

I've noticed that medical students at our school are really humble and down to earth, probably due to the interprofessional days and the fact that we take electives with them.

 

[J ROD]

Cant we just all get along.....we are on the same team no matter what we call ourselves. We are on the team trying to help the patient.

 

[surag]

Cant we just all get along.....we are on the same team no matter what we call ourselves. We are on the team trying to help the patient.

man, this guy had an agenda when he came on this thread...he basically

just said that all medical students are in because of grade inflation and taking easy courses.

his title of the thread was differences between pharm and med. i was suspicious of it and when I saw his initial question i figured it was harmless. the reality is that he's itching to 'put med students in their place' and he came here to address those issues. basically his own insecurity is feeding his behavior.

go ahead block me...i dont care, the fact is you just dissed med students for no apparant reason and believe that doctors are in med school because they take easy classes to pad their GPAs...thats a troll in my book.

 

[womp]

You are truly an idiot, and are give a bad name to pre-med students everywhere.

So you are suggesting that a medical degree is superior to a PhD. Fact is, I've never seen an MD lecture in quantum mechanics, and to be honest, I never will. Furthermore the PhD is more rigorous in the respect that it requires a dissertation. To be perfectly honest this should be a requirement for all doctorates. In fact a few progressive schools have implemented this policy (see the Duke University School of Medicine Page).

You clearly have some damned ego issues? Remember that you that you are not a physician yet. With this poor attitude you never will be.

Please see my earlier lecture on respect between medical professionals. If you cannot work with the rest of the medical team you are not qualified to be a physician.

Oh for christsakes, just retake the MCAT and reapply to medical school. You don't need to broadcast your inferiority complex and self-rationalizations to all of us. We get it. You are amazing and could have gone and finished medical school in one year (it's no quantum mechanics), but instead you want to go to pharmacy school for 4 years and work at Walgreens. We bow to you.

From another thread, someone else had wrriten: "Those who accuse physicians of big egos, have far greater egos themselves." They are right.

 

[tackett26]

Cant we just all get along.....we are on the same team no matter what we call ourselves. We are on the team trying to help the patient.

Hey J-DUB,

I couldn't find you on the other post, but I found a program that I thought you might be interested in. Glad you came up.

There is a really cool program at a few medical schools that will allow you to get some credit for your PharmD studies in medical school. In short my understanding is you won't have to worry about stuff like pharmacology that you already did in pharmacy school.

You might want to ask about it at the med school you are attending. Worst they can do is say no- in which case you don't loose anything.

 

[tackett26]

Oh for christsakes, just retake the MCAT and reapply to medical school. You don't need to broadcast your inferiority complex and self-rationalizations to all of us. We get it. You are amazing and could have gone and finished medical school in one year (it's no quantum mechanics, and yes I did my honors thesis on quantum mech), but instead you want to go to pharmacy school for 4 years and work at Walgreens. We bow to you.

From another thread, someone else had wrriten: "Those who accuse physicians of big egos, have far greater egos themselves." They are right.

Dude what is your problem!

 

[tackett26]

Oh for christsakes, just retake the MCAT and reapply to medical school. You don't need to broadcast your inferiority complex and self-rationalizations to all of us. We get it. You are amazing and could have gone and finished medical school in one year (it's no quantum mechanics, and yes I did my honors thesis on quantum mech), but instead you want to go to pharmacy school for 4 years and work at Walgreens. We bow to you.

From another thread, someone else had wrriten: "Those who accuse physicians of big egos, have far greater egos themselves." They are right.

If you must know I do drug design at Merck!

 

[womp]

If you must know I do drug design at Merck!

Good for you. Here's a cookie:

 

[surag]

Good for you. Here's a cookie:

👍

don't feed the troll guys. he's just on an ego trip and wants to self justify/rationalize his decisions in life. its no use lowering ourselves to him.

 

[tackett26]

Look, I've said nothing against the practice of medicine. I'm saying that a minority of people in these professions treat other health care professionals such as PharmDs, NPs, and everyone else like dirt.

I wasn't the one who said that a post-doc should be bashed for wanting "PhD" placed on her name tag. I was not the one who said that all pharmacists want to be physicians that give up their dream to work at WAGs.

Clearly a minority of MD and DO students have serious ego problem and they need to find somewhere other than this forum to address those. There are excellent psychiatrists and psychologists out there. Find one!

 

[surag]

Look, I've said nothing against the practice of medicine. I'm saying that a minority of people in these professions treat other health care professionals such as PharmDs, NPs, and everyone else like dirt.

I wasn't the one who said that a post-doc should be bashed for wanting "PhD" placed on her name tag. I was not the one who said that all pharmacists want to be physicians that give up their dream to work at WAGs.

Clearly a minority of MD and DO students have serious ego problem and they need to find somewhere other than this forum to address those. There are excellent psychiatrists and psychologists out there. Find one!

lol...don't change the subject.

you clearly stated that md's are in med school with their so called 'high gpas' because its all INFLATED👎confused:....thats exactly what YOU SAID.

you've also adamantly defended dubious principles not because they're correct but because it inflates your own ego.

by hiding behind political correctness and what you consider to be morall/medically correct when in reality you're just upset at the notion that doctors maybe held in higher regard/have higher prestige than PhDs and in turn perhaps pharmacists/others(which I dont see as being true or an issue really).

that is your fault and is inappropriate on your part. you're basically itching for a fight and you got one. dont back away from it by saying all along you had some noble interests in mind when in reality you obviously dont.

again...the point is, in a research setting there is no need to confuse a PhD and an MD when there's no REAL NEED...thats a very valid point.

 

[tackett26]

lol...don't change the subject.

you clearly stated that md's are in med school with their so called 'high gpas' because its all INFLATED👎confused:....thats exactly what YOU SAID.

you've also adamantly defended dubious principles not because they're correct but because it inflates your own ego.

by hiding behind political correctness and what you consider to be morall/medically correct when in reality you're just upset at the notion that doctors maybe held in higher regard/have higher prestige than PhDs and in turn perhaps pharmacists/others(which I dont see as being true or an issue really).

that is your fault and is inappropriate on your part. you're basically itching for a fight and you got one. dont back away from it by saying all along you had some noble interests in mind when in reality you obviously dont.

again...the point is, in a research setting there is no need to confuse a PhD and an MD when there's no REAL NEED...thats a very valid point.

First of all, you were the one that said there are no real requirements for a PhD other than time. This is an over generalization. Time is probably the bare minimum requirement for a PhD likewise I mentioned that there is also a bare minimum required for admission to medical school. I did not say that all medical students get in on the bare minimum, but some do. Likewise not all PhDs get by with the bare minimum, but some do.

You stated that on average the GPA of an entering MD student is greater than that of an entering PhD student. On average that is true. But if student A went to a school where grade inflation is a common practice and student B went to a school where this was not the case student A is clearly going to have an advantage. This is despite the fact that student B may know the material 10000 times better than student A. This is the case for pharmacy school, medical school, graduate school, law school, and everything else in life. I think you are taking me a bit out of context.

Furthermore a hospital is not strictly a research setting. Anytime there are patients involved the focus has to be on more than just research. There is more than one type of PhD, some of which are actually clinically oriented. I don't understand why you would have so much against the notion of putting PhD after someones name on their name badge. I'm not saying they need to put doctor on their at all. I'm just saying that there name should give their title and in some way denote their respective area of expertise.

-I've already made one post explaining that all members of the health care team are vital and fill a void that could otherwise be fatal. Society may regard pharmacists as store clerks and physicians as king, but as a health care provider you should know better. You should know that pharmacists contribute just as much as any other member of the health care team and they work their ass off to ensure optimal patient outcomes.

No I do not have an ego problem. I have a problem with pre-health care professionals and health care professionals who feel that other health care professionals are useless!

 

[tackett26]

.I would also appreciate it if people in this thread would stop using Ad Hominem arguments. If you must attack something, attack the argument- not the person making it. .

 

[surag]

Don't change the issues at hand and detract from what you said earlier. its pretty obvious you realize that what you initially said is ignorant at best and purposefully crass against MDs at worst.

First: Dont take what I say out of context(and you accuse me of doing that?) I didn't say only time was necessary. The reality is that its pretty easy to get into a PhD program anywhere in the country-again, maybe not at the best programs, but certainly the vast majority cannot be considered duke/harvard level. is it any wonder that so many PhDs end up on the cutting block? the salary differential between an PhD and a masters in the workplace is not that significant...not significant enough to justify the 7 years of work. look, its not the PhD that means anything...its what kind of research you've done! whereas for an MD it opens a very exclusive door to a fairly lucrative career...so yes there is a difference between the two and yes time is the biggest factor for MANY PHDS. have you actually looked at a PhD program? Have you actually TALKED TO PhD STUDENTS...? who are going through the process? do you know what they all tell me? its not as hard to get into one but its damn well hard to succeed with a PhD.. and yes i hear it all the time: "PhDs are Dime a dozen...its what you do with your research that matters, not your PhD" and this from actual PhDs/students.

I have come across SO MANY PhDs who have basically told me...its easy to get a PhD, but having a career with it is cutthroat and exceedingly difficult with no guarantees(especially in the biomed side). I have personally seen so many post docs who have told me they barely did well in undergrad, worked a few years, and then managed to get into a PhD from some no name institution and are now trying to eke out a research living. its not easy, its tough, and yes its easy to get a PhD.


and second....your explanation of the bare minimum of admissions to med school was not an explanation for the minimal time i mentioned for PhDs!

it was a direct statement to the comparisons between THE GPAS.

you are CLEARLY lying and attempting to twist the points in your favor. Don't ever take what I said out of context like that.

NOBODY. and i mean NOBODY gets into medical school with the BARE minimum of the requirements. you can rest assured that if they did only the bare minimum science coursework and got in it is because of OTHER activities that more than made up for it..i.e. exceptional volunteering/research/good work in their non science major(and whos to say that an econ major is any easier? at my school econ was the third hardest major after neuroscience and mathematics...

COUNTLESS NUMBER OF STUDENTS get into easy PhD programs with weak GPAs and weak GREs...is it any wonder that most schools dont even care about your GRE for admissions? I know for a fact Duke doesnt even really care about your GRE as long as you meet the minimum...they only care about your research/GPA and this from a very prestigious program.


seriously? you're going to compare a student from a good program to a student from a less rigorous program? that has to be the weakest argument i've ever heard on this forum. your reading comprehension skills are wanting. you cant compare a academically rigorous program vs. a non-rigorous program and say your point is valid! that goes against all common sense. you just failed...really big time here genius.

You have obviously never worked in a research setting. when you're at a research academic institution where I worked at, that is alongside the hospital the research area is almost ALWAYs separated from the hospital area. even if both are in the same building.....buildings can be very very very big ya know?

 

[surag]

ad hominem attacks? please...here we go again with your self aggrandized moralization and self righteousness. cut the BS ok?

 

[tackett26]

If you only have the bare minimum requirements for and MD program you can go to the Caribbean, Mexico, India, and a number of other locations. Also many schools have a biomedical science masters program that are designed to strengthen your credentials for medical school. If you don’t want to do that you can always do a post-bac and strengthen your credentials. The truth is you don’t have to be particularly brilliant to get a degree you just have to want it bad enough to taste it.
The same is true for the PhD. On an off year where there aren’t many competitive applicants you may get in with weaker stats. But generally if you have weaker stats – the big name schools expect you to make up for it by having one hell of a research background. Frankly if you’ve discovered two genes that are clinically significant most PhD schools won’t think twice about picking you up. Depending on the MD program such extracurricular activities may also help.
You still haven’t explained why it hurts you so much that a post-doc wanted PhD put after her name? She earned the degree. It doesn’t cost anymore to print three extra letters. It would denote the research chain of command to any visiting researchers. Also you still have failed to address my point about clinical PhDs. I’m talking about psychologists, and other professionals who are licensed to render patient care.

You accuse me of straying from the issue when you are doing the same thing. I never said that an MD was any less than a PhD. I only said that a PhD, an MD, a PharmD, and any other doctorate is equally an expert in their respective field.
Also I have already warned you once about personal attacks in your posts. If you must attack something attack the argument. Don't make me remind you again!

 

[tackett26]

ad hominem attacks? please...here we go again with your self aggrandized moralization and self righteousness. cut the BS ok?

Its not BS I'm dead serious. If you can't limit your attacks to the argument at hand don't bother posting.

 

[ffpickle]

Thanks you all! I have taken alot of crap from some pharm peeps for wanting both. I think they are just jealous, lol!! They can always apply too!

At least, I can say I am well educated,

I'm a PharmD (Class of 2009) and am a M1 right now. There is actually another PharmD in my M1 class and there is a person from my pharm class that is also in med school.

As for the differences in material, I cant comment too much yet since I've only been in school for a month or so. I also think it depends on your pharm school curriculum. They vary a lot more from school to school than med school curriculum's I think. Some have req/have anatomy, biochemistry, etc and some don't. But I can say that I think i've studied more in the first month of med school than I did in the first semester of pharm school. Well maybe that is a little over exaggeration, but it just seems more intense to me.

Good luck

How old are you guys and how much debt do you guys have going into Med school? How about coming out of med school?

 

[tackett26]

How old are you guys and how much debt do you guys have going into Med school? How about coming out of med school?

Its hard to tell on the debt. It will depend on the school. My advice would be to go to the "k-mart" of medical schools because you will learn the same material at any med school. What really will separate you is where you did residency.

 

[tackett26]

How old are you guys and how much debt do you guys have going into Med school? How about coming out of med school?

I haven't heard that song in forever btw. 😛

 

[surag]

If you only have the bare minimum requirements for and MD program you can go to the Caribbean, Mexico, India, and a number of other locations. Also many schools have a biomedical science masters program that are designed to strengthen your credentials for medical school. If you don't want to do that you can always do a post-bac and strengthen your credentials. The truth is you don't have to be particularly brilliant to get a degree you just have to want it bad enough to taste it.
The same is true for the PhD. On an off year where there aren't many competitive applicants you may get in with weaker stats. But generally if you have weaker stats – the big name schools expect you to make up for it by having one hell of a research background. Frankly if you've discovered two genes that are clinically significant most PhD schools won't think twice about picking you up. Depending on the MD program such extracurricular activities may also help.
You still haven't explained why it hurts you so much that a post-doc wanted PhD put after her name? She earned the degree. It doesn't cost anymore to print three extra letters. It would denote the research chain of command to any visiting researchers. Also you still have failed to address my point about clinical PhDs. I'm talking about psychologists, and other professionals who are licensed to render patient care.

You accuse me of straying from the issue when you are doing the same thing. I never said that an MD was any less than a PhD. I only said that a PhD, an MD, a PharmD, and any other doctorate is equally an expert in their respective field.
Also I have already warned you once about personal attacks in your posts. If you must attack something attack the argument. Don't make me remind you again!

If you must attack something attack the argument. Don't make me remind you again!
what are you going to do? spank me? relax.

Also many schools have a biomedical science masters program that are designed to strengthen your credentials for medical school. If you don't want to do that you can always do a post-bac and strengthen your credentials.

- you sound like this is a breeze. are you kidding me? do you know how difficult it is to do well in it? lets see you go ahead and make that statement to other med students. don't step out side of what you dont know.

at the very least this shows your ignorance of postbacc programs(btw thats not an ad hominem attack). also, what you're mentioning is completely IRRELEVANT BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GPA....the GPA stats do not include postbacc grades or international students FYI. again...here you go mouthing off about things you really dont understand or know about.

the big name schools expect you to make up for it by having one hell of a research background.

here you go again making irrelevant comments...we're not talking about big name schools. why do you keep bringing it up? i have said time and time again, there are countless number of PhD students out there who got in because its easy to get in in their program. just because post docs manage to work at a big name place doesnt mean that they're from the best programs...at all. in fact, many aren't. thats a fact as well. and this is just at a competitive school...that is not to say you cant do good research, its just that the numbers say otherwise...its very easy to get into a PhD program in GENERAL. yet here you go talking about the difficulty of elite programs. seriously...we're not talking about that.

It would denote the research chain of command to any visiting researchers. Also you still have failed to address my point about clinical PhDs. I'm talking about psychologists, and other professionals who are licensed to render patient care.

research chain of command to visiting professors? look, if a visiting researcher was working at my lab he would know was who after having been INTRODUCED to the team. no one would just walk in from another school and figure things out on their own. thats stupid. everybody knows their role...its not a guessing game. im not going to explain and go over every itty bitty small reason you come up with for using the ID. i mean seriously the main point is that Dr. should be used for physicians or care givers-in a medical setting. period.

calling a psychologist a dr. in a medical setting would be a huge issue. already there is a vast misunderstanding of what a psychologist can and cannot do. there is a clear distinction between psychologists and psychiatrists that is denoted by their education. as a result, there is absoloutely no need to call a psychologist doctor. none at all.

i certainly wouldnt address a psychologist as a doctor in front of a patient especially if the patient is new or i just met them. or else you run the risk of letting them think that a psychologist can prescribe or even diagnose medical conditions-none of which he can do..certainly that mixup can be clarified at a later point to the patient but why even bother with it from the start?

seriously dude...im done arguing with you...everytime you post you change the points from here to there and then make irrelevant remarks. on top of that you ignore the main issue that was even being discussed until finally we're discussing minute details and ignoring the main point entirely. this is ridiculous. before you post you really should read up about what you do or dont know. im done posting here

you've basically

1. have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to what it takes to be a PhD or MD
]2. Insulted all MD students by saying that their GPAs were inflated and that its not particularly difficult for admissions to the program- I want everyone to see this so we all know what your agenda is.
3. when you're shown you're wrong you just ignore it and avoid the topic after making gross generalizations and inaccurate statements
4. accuse me of saying that somehow I'm suggesting that professions in PhD, MD, or pharmacy are not equal in their contributions or lament that others are against this

the last part, part 4 is why you're basically adamant and constantly barraging all of us with your comments. no one here denies the importance of the professions. merely, i stated that there should be a clear distinction between physicians, pharmacists, dentists, and PhDs. there is nothing wrong with what I said. Simply stated, physicians are capable of giving prescriptions and making medical diagnosis-legally no other profession is allowed to do that. because of this and only this physicians need to have a distinction separate from others. encroaching on this distinction and blurring the lines between professions(EVEN IF THEY CAN CONTRIBUTE IN A PATIENT CARE SETTING) can only lead to confusion for patients.

 

[tackett26]

If you must attack something attack the argument. Don't make me remind you again!
what are you going to do? spank me? relax.

Also many schools have a biomedical science masters program that are designed to strengthen your credentials for medical school. If you don't want to do that you can always do a post-bac and strengthen your credentials.

- you sound like this is a breeze. are you kidding me? do you know how difficult it is to do well in it? lets see you go ahead and make that statement to other med students. don't step out side of what you dont know.

at the very least this shows your ignorance of postbacc programs(btw thats not an ad hominem attack). also, what you're mentioning is completely IRRELEVANT BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GPA....the GPA stats do not include postbacc grades or international students FYI. again...here you go mouthing off about things you really dont understand or know about.

the big name schools expect you to make up for it by having one hell of a research background.

here you go again making irrelevant comments...we're not talking about big name schools. why do you keep bringing it up? i have said time and time again, there are countless number of PhD students out there who got in because its easy to get in in their program. just because post docs manage to work at a big name place doesnt mean that they're from the best programs...at all. in fact, many aren't. thats a fact as well. and this is just at a competitive school...that is not to say you cant do good research, its just that the numbers say otherwise...its very easy to get into a PhD program in GENERAL. yet here you go talking about the difficulty of elite programs. seriously...we're not talking about that.

It would denote the research chain of command to any visiting researchers. Also you still have failed to address my point about clinical PhDs. I'm talking about psychologists, and other professionals who are licensed to render patient care.

research chain of command to visiting professors? look, if a visiting researcher was working at my lab he would know was who after having been INTRODUCED to the team. no one would just walk in from another school and figure things out on their own. thats stupid. everybody knows their role...its not a guessing game. im not going to explain and go over every itty bitty small reason you come up with for using the ID. i mean seriously the main point is that Dr. should be used for physicians or care givers-in a medical setting. period.

calling a psychologist a dr. in a medical setting would be a huge issue. already there is a vast misunderstanding of what a psychologist can and cannot do. there is a clear distinction between psychologists and psychiatrists that is denoted by their education. as a result, there is absoloutely no need to call a psychologist doctor. none at all.

You've made your point a long time ago. I've conceded that it is less confusing if MDs are called doctor in a hospital setting. But honestly not all areas of the hospital research and otherwise are perfectly sequestered. There is a need to let others know who they are talking to.

Secondly, depending on how large the hospital is it may not be the case that everyone knows everyone else!

" don't step out side of what you dont know."

-What is that supposed to mean.

You're a troll.


I'm going to drop the issue, and I suggest you do the same as it is clear that we are making no progress.

 

[surag]

You've made your point a long time ago. I've conceded that it is less confusing if MDs are called doctor in a hospital setting. But honestly not all areas of the hospital research and otherwise are perfectly sequestered. There is a need to let others know who they are talking to.

Secondly, depending on how large the hospital is it may not be the case that everyone knows everyone else!

" don't step out side of what you dont know."

-What is that supposed to mean.

You're a troll.


I'm going to drop the issue, and I suggest you do the same as it is clear that we are making no progress.

haha I'm the troll? you come into an allopathic forum, accuse physicians of arrogance, claim that their GPAs are inflated because they took easy courses or went abroad or took post bacc courses(none of which contribute to the overall GPA stats fyi) misrepresent facts and make gross generalizations and then accuse me of being a troll when I show you're wrong? really?

oh and I meant don't step into an area you dont know much about. I guess I should repent for making a typo. save me.

what happened to ad hominem attacks? ohhh but you can accuse people who dont agree with you for being trolls. awesome.

yes im done here as well.

 

[tackett26]

haha I'm the troll? you come into an allopathic forum, accuse physicians of arrogance, claim that their GPAs are inflated because they took easy courses or went abroad or took post bacc courses(none of which contribute to the overall GPA stats fyi) misrepresent facts and make gross generalizations and then accuse me of being a troll when I show you're wrong? really?

oh and I meant don't step into an area you dont know much about. I guess I should repent for making a typo. save me.

what happened to ad hominem attacks? ohhh but you can accuse people who dont agree with you for being trolls. awesome.

yes im done here as well.

Good we'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[ffpickle]

Its hard to tell on the debt. It will depend on the school. My advice would be to go to the "k-mart" of medical schools because you will learn the same material at any med school. What really will separate you is where you did residency.

no thanks for the advice.

not what i was asking, and you also have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[tackett26]

no thanks for the advice.

not what i was asking, and you also have no idea what you're talking about.

Its going to be a lot of money, but it will also depend on the school. 30 K per year and 50 K per year can make a huge difference.

 

[Coastie]

But I can say that I think i've studied more in the first month of med school than I did in the first semester of pharm school.

qft

 

[PharmD2MD]

I'm a PharmD (Class of 2009) and am a M1 right now. There is actually another PharmD in my M1 class and there is a person from my pharm class that is also in med school.

As for the differences in material, I cant comment too much yet since I've only been in school for a month or so. I also think it depends on your pharm school curriculum. They vary a lot more from school to school than med school curriculum's I think. Some have req/have anatomy, biochemistry, etc and some don't. But I can say that I think i've studied more in the first month of med school than I did in the first semester of pharm school. Well maybe that is a little over exaggeration, but it just seems more intense to me.

Good luck

I would agree with this. The volume of material is higher in med school. I would say that some of the individual courses in pharm school were harder, but there wasn't quite the sheer tonnage of stuff to plow through.

This thread is less about people genuinely interested in the curriculum differences and more about ego stroking. Stop embarrassing yourselves and your professions.

 

[rxforlife2004]

LOl...a bunch of nerds arguing about how hardcore they are...Relax everyone. It doesn't matter if u're an MD, Pharm.D, Ph.D, you all end up in the same letter D as in "Die" or "Death". Wake up and start doing something more useful than sitting here bashing other professions.

40-50 yrs from now i bet one of u will be in ICU unit on ventilation...lol...Bring your MD or Pharm.D out and argue then...lol....******s...

Life is too short....Spending time arguing makes it even shorter...Me gonna go to the beach and check out the girls now..lol...

 

[fahimaz7]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoTrgDRnxfY[/YOUTUBE]

 

[orthomyxo]

I think doctor is fine in certain settings. Like academia as you mentioned. All my clinical faculty were PharmDs and we called them Dr. SoandSo in class. However, once we got on rotations they usually just went by their first names.

I think if you do use Dr. as a pharmacist during patient interaction, you should really say something like, "Hi I'm your pharmacist, Dr. Rx515" to avoid confusion. It also offers a teaching opportunity if they question the title. In a hospital setting if someone in a white coat walked into my room and just said, "I'm Dr. X", I would probably assume MD/DO like the rest of the nation unless they told me otherwise.

This.

 

[sonal7731]

Hi J DUB

I am taking my tests to be a pharmacist. How can I continue to be an MD . What do I have to do? do I approach the colleges and ask their requsite ? can u guide?

thanks
sonal

MDs know the basics but dont get into calculating vanco troughs and gent levels, etc.

From what I know they dont use those lovely e^ power equations!

Btw, I am a 4th year pharm student going into medical school. Going to make it a combo!!

 

[PharmaTope]

write pharmd after your name all you want. no one wants to stop you, you earned it.

what others are saying is that the title "doctor" needs to be reserved for those who are traditionally associated with the doctor role.

both sides have a point. does it really matter? no. do people care? yes, quite a lot, depending on who you talk to. it is quite egotistical. a lot of md's put down do's as it is. add pharmd to the mix and the ridicule will never stop.

im not advocating either side at this point because tackett, you made a good point, as did the other posters here. im just commenting on how things are.

unfortunately medicine is filled with a lot of people who do it for prestige and not to help others. the helping others just comes with the prestige and money they are making. i meet tons of people like that. they do medicine because their family tells them too.

i never ever understood how an MD thinks a DO is lesser in any way. I think DO route is great especially since you can apply to allopathic and osteopathic residencies.

The USA is so focused on titles and certifications. Unfortunately, you can't be considered to have a good opinion unless a piece of paper says so. You can't just be a biologist without having that biology degree here. It is a load of **** if you ask me. It is all about the $$$ with everything. I can teach myself from books, why would i need another degree in say nutrition to give nutrition advice at an expensive cost?

The forced undergrad education and titles in the usa need to stop. everyone (including MD) need to say **** it, does it matter a title I am given or is the patient care the most important aspect. I say remove the titles all together, do your jobs, go the **** home and live life. Do you live to work or work to live?

Too much focus is being placed on irrelevant topics. So many people are out of work and losing their homes and we got people bitching about who is Dr. and who isn't? really pathetic and arrogant if you ask me. All i see from reading these forums is everyone whining about ME ME ME, I should be called this, I want this and that.

I think too many people lose sight of the big picture. Those same physicians bitching about titles and **** are generally old school physicians (the same ones that overbilled throughout the years which is why our healthcare reimbursement is ****ed up for everyone now).

 

[womp]

unfortunately medicine is filled with a lot of people who do it for prestige and not to help others. the helping others just comes with the prestige and money they are making. i meet tons of people like that. they do medicine because their family tells them too.

i never ever understood how an MD thinks a DO is lesser in any way. I think DO route is great especially since you can apply to allopathic and osteopathic residencies.

The USA is so focused on titles and certifications. Unfortunately, you can't be considered to have a good opinion unless a piece of paper says so. You can't just be a biologist without having that biology degree here. It is a load of **** if you ask me. It is all about the $$$ with everything. I can teach myself from books, why would i need another degree in say nutrition to give nutrition advice at an expensive cost?

The forced undergrad education and titles in the usa need to stop. everyone (including MD) need to say **** it, does it matter a title I am given or is the patient care the most important aspect. I say remove the titles all together, do your jobs, go the **** home and live life. Do you live to work or work to live?

Too much focus is being placed on irrelevant topics. So many people are out of work and losing their homes and we got people bitching about who is Dr. and who isn't? really pathetic and arrogant if you ask me. All i see from reading these forums is everyone whining about ME ME ME, I should be called this, I want this and that.

I think too many people lose sight of the big picture. Those same physicians bitching about titles and **** are generally old school physicians (the same ones that overbilled throughout the years which is why our healthcare reimbursement is ****ed up for everyone now).

Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, the Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya,
O Lord, kum bay ya.

Someone's laughing, Lord, kum bay ya;
Someone's laughing, Lord, kum bay ya;
Someone's laughing, Lord, kum bay ya,
O Lord, kum bay ya.

 

[PharmaTope]

Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, the Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya,
O Lord, kum bay ya.

Someone's laughing, Lord, kum bay ya;
Someone's laughing, Lord, kum bay ya;
Someone's laughing, Lord, kum bay ya,
O Lord, kum bay ya.

that would be good if i was a liberal or an obama supporter. i am far from either.

 

[tungsten87]

that is your fault and is inappropriate on your part. you're basically itching for a fight and you got one. dont back away from it by saying all along you had some noble interests in mind when in reality you obviously dont.

+1...

not only has he started this thread trying to initiate some sort of debate but he goes through the Pharmacy forum and revives 2-3 year old threads with completely worthless posts and terrible grammar. tackett, stop while you're ahead as you're giving a bad name to all the pre-pharms, pharm students, and pharmd's on this forum. just face it, medical school is tougher to get into (higher avg. gpa's and the mcat is on a whole different level than the pcat) and that pharmacists (for now) play the role of a secondary health care professional with the physician playing the primary role. if you can't accept this fact you should never have applied to pharmacy school in the first place.

 

[kevster2001]

MD = Makes Decisions

There's probably some other differences but none come to mind

 

[UES Girl]

MD = Makes Decisions

There's probably some other differences but none come to mind

Eloquent argument coming from a medical student, I sort of expected something along the lines of " wear big boy pants".


The more time I spend with medical students ( this is during interprofessional education days and in class since at my school pharmacy students can take electives in the school of medicine), the more I realize how truly clueless medical students are about pharmacy school. In this sense pharmacy students are far more knowledge about the field of medicine than medical students about the field of pharmacy. Just the other day, a medical student asked me if pharmacy school is a two year degree.


The underlying asumption that medical students make ( and I ask you why ?) is that you assume that all of us pharmacy students dream of going into clinical pharmacy or community pharmacy. There are quite a few of us even in my own class that are interested in working in the industry, going into research or starting our own biotech company even. The possibilities for clinical research and with appropriate training bench research even for Pharm.D are limitless, in this sense your arguments about "making decisions" come out truly senseless. It is a different field alltogether that we are interested in. To put into perspective: at the same are you were dreaming about being a doctor and treating diarrhea, I envisioned myself working for GSK or Genentech.

 

[tackett26]

+1...

not only has he started this thread trying to initiate some sort of debate but he goes through the Pharmacy forum and revives 2-3 year old threads with completely worthless posts and terrible grammar. tackett, stop while you're ahead as you're giving a bad name to all the pre-pharms, pharm students, and pharmd's on this forum. just face it, medical school is tougher to get into (higher avg. gpa's and the mcat is on a whole different level than the pcat) and that pharmacists (for now) play the role of a secondary health care professional with the physician playing the primary role. if you can't accept this fact you should never have applied to pharmacy school in the first place.

I stopped posting to this thread along time ago. Don't start trying to drag me back into this. If you don't like my posts - ignore them! Its that simple.

 

[Downbytheicu]

This thread got kinda funny to me because those two guys weren't even on the same page for their main argument. The title "Dr." is an honorific, and the abbreviations "PhD" are post-nomial abbreviations. It is considered incorrect to use both an honorific and post-nomial abbreviation. For instance, no name-tags should read "Dr. Downbytheicu, M.D." It should be either Dr. Downbytheicu or Downbytheicu, M.D. In many hospitals, the honorific "Dr." before the name is reserved for physicians in the clinical setting, such as "Dr. Downbytheicu". PhDs, PharmDs, etc would be "Downbytheicu, PharmD." but are often still addressed as "Dr." as a sign of respect. Maybe it's silly that the difference is mainly written, with little difference orally, but that's just the way it is.

P.S. you know the only people I see regularly who use both an honorific and abbreviations? You guessed it... chiropracters. "Dr. Chiro Practer, D.C."

 

[smilemin]

MDs know the basics but dont get into calculating vanco troughs and gent levels, etc.

From what I know they dont use those lovely e^ power equations!

Btw, I am a 4th year pharm student going into medical school. Going to make it a combo!!

wow congrats! i'm a pharm student myself (class of '11) and have just started looking into med school (tho i have always been contemplating about it). how did you go about preparing for med school?

 

[J ROD]

wow congrats! i'm a pharm student myself (class of '11) and have just started looking into med school (tho i have always been contemplating about it). how did you go about preparing for med school?

getting all the necessary ECs....volunteering, clinical experience, shadowing

with some leadership, tutoring, work mixed in.

and prepare well for the MCAT.

 

[Farcus]

I'm sure all the MDs would gladly do their own kinetics if insurers and Medicare paid them extra the equivalent of a pharmacist's generous salary ($100k-$120k).

Hell, maybe MDs can even start a one-year fellowship for those who need extra training. They can take out the fluff courses in a PharmD and condense it into one year (advanced pharmacology and pharmacokinetics)

Here's the typical PharmD curriculum:
Year 1
Pharmacology I, II
Biochemistry I, II
Biochemistry Lab
Medical Microbiology and Immunizations
Early Pharmacy Practice Experience
Calculations

Year 2
Pharmacology III
Chemistry I, II
Pharmacokinetics
Toxicology
Health Care Systems
Biopharmaceutics & Drug Delivery

Year 3
Pharmacology IV
Chemistry III
Introduction to Clinical Chemistry
Human Nutrition and Drug Therapy
Pharmacy Management
Ethics & Law in Pharmacy Practice

Year 4
Hospital Externship
Community Externship
Clerkship

No idea what school you know to but that is like super relaxed schedule. I'm not going to argue if MD curriculum is tougher/more stressful than Pharm.D because i know the med students have it harder. From what I can tell the D.O. student in my school are doing they take a higher course load and i'm not gonna liethat gross anatomy is a bitch (one reason i'd never be a physician) but as to how "Phar" well i don't think any of you med or pharm people are qualified to say, even the the Pharm.D thats in med school now since i think most of you are only in first semester med, and we all know pretty much first year of pharmacy is fluff/review+a little bit new stuff. As for a typical curriculum here is ours, some schools have it similiar to ours while others study each individual organ/system and all that pertains to it then next one. Oh yeh we take some of the course classes together with med students, well not in same class but same teachers same materials but obviously not everything.

P1
Anatomy&Physiology1 and 2
Biochem
Pharmcodynamics 1 and 2
Pharmeutics1 and 2 + labs
healthcare system
drug information
Pharmcokinetics
service learning
calculations
Medical Terminology

P2
Microbiology 3 Clinical Pharmacokinetics 3 Pharmacodynamics III 5 Social and Behavioral Pharmacy 2 Pharmacy Law
Nonprescription Therapies3 Pharmacodynamics IV 4 Communication Skills 2 IPPE: Community 3 Therapeutics /Pathophysiology I
P3
Research Design and Statistics 3 Pharmacy Management 3 Physical Assessment** 2 IPPE: Health System 2 Therapeutics /Pathophysiology II 5 Patient Care Management I 2 Patient Care Management I Lab 0 Required Electives- 6 hour overall for electives
Pharmacoepidemiology and Pharmacoeconomics 3 Drug Literature Evaluation 2 Therapeutics /Pathophysiology III 4 IPPE: Pharmacy Service2 Patient Care Management II 1 Patient Care Management II Lab 0
p4 is just rotations, u get that starting 2nd year but p4 is only that.

not gonna lie the hours are on average 16-17hr with some semester 18-19hrs. A good bit of fluff class later on but the first two years are really the meat and gritty part and they save the best for last therapeutics which i considered the heart of clinical pharmacy. As to how "phar" you tell me... and doesn't med school's didactic teaching only last 2 years?

 

[Farcus]

+1...

not only has he started this thread trying to initiate some sort of debate but he goes through the Pharmacy forum and revives 2-3 year old threads with completely worthless posts and terrible grammar. tackett, stop while you're ahead as you're giving a bad name to all the pre-pharms, pharm students, and pharmd's on this forum. just face it, medical school is tougher to get into (higher avg. gpa's and the mcat is on a whole different level than the pcat) and that pharmacists (for now) play the role of a secondary health care professional with the physician playing the primary role. if you can't accept this fact you should never have applied to pharmacy school in the first place.

No comment on anything else, but yeh pharmacy school is easier to get into than med schools, esp the MCAT vs PCAT section but that doesn't mean people who are in pharmacy school can't get into med schools or not qualified for it. I think if i had the desire i could of gotten in, definitely not any prestigious one as i suck at physics but give me ochem/biology i'll eat it right up. My undergrad was from a top 20 PUBLIC not private university in the nation, so no grade 13(community college) either and I had a pretty decent GPA for med school by my 3rd year of undergrad.

 

[swamprat]

The only thing that annoys me is that Pharm.D students are 6 years and med school you essentially need a BA/BS before you matriculate so its 8. That is such b.s. esp since pre-reqs only take 2 years and we as MDs hafta do 3-5 year residency +- fellowship post-graduation. I mean I'm a senior now, I have major senioritis and the "real work" hasn't even begun. Yayy