PhD Epidemiology

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V92

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Hi All,

Interested in delving into the field of Epidemiology.

Does anyone have any advice or guidance towards applying for a PhD program in Epidemiology? Perhaps you have considered or done this? Any advice would be appreciated!
 
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This has bern discussed in other threads. What's your math background?
1. No calculus with transcendental
2. Calculus with transcendental (series, partials, vectors)
3. Differential
4. Real Analysis

If at 1, you get put in the Mickey major, if at 3 or 4, it'll be a breeze. Also, are you licensed in the US if going to a US university? If not, you're much less competitive.
 
Ok, I actually meant Analysis the math subject Mathematical analysis - Wikipedia but ok.

So, you need to decide what sort of research you'd like to conduct topically, and then find supervisory faculty that deal in that topic for research. Don't choose a university, look for advisor profiles that match your interests. The best informatics school for clinical is probably Utah or Vanderbilt (OHSU and Columbia are not far behind). Epidemiology is such a large field that there is no one best school. The best schools for statistical demography are between Maryland and Massachusetts Amherst.I

Your math is deficient for a serious epidemiology program, you need to walk in knowing transcendental series and matrices (linear algebra) due to complex sampling and rigorous theory of statistics . Cover that deficiency now as R programming without knowledge of linear algebra is an impediment.

2018 Syllabi & Reading Lists

If you're serious about this, get the three syllabi for the math classes and work through the topics as you look for somewhere to apply. I is finite mathematics, II is linear algebra, III is Calculus with Transcendentals.
 
Math background:
Generally very good at math personally. As for coursework, I've taken basic Calculus I, Basic Biostatistics, have used SAS/R before for Analysis.

I graduated from US university and licensed in US state currently.

Do you have an undergraduate degree?
 
OP, where are you wanting to end up post-PhD? Academia? Industry? Somewhere else?

One thing you might consider is that there is a very real chance that upon completion of the PhD any job you get might, at least initially, pay you significantly less than what you’re making now as a regular pharmacist. The location of jobs available to you might be significantly more limited than what you have available as a pharmacist. These things might not matter to you, but they might.
 
This has bern discussed in other threads. What's your math background?
1. No calculus with transcendental
2. Calculus with transcendental (series, partials, vectors)
3. Differential
4. Real Analysis

If at 1, you get put in the Mickey major, if at 3 or 4, it'll be a breeze. Also, are you licensed in the US if going to a US university? If not, you're much less competitive.

My undergrad pchem professor once told me that I would never regret any of the extra (above minimum requirements for a chem BS) math and physics classes that I chose to take. That was some of the best advice I’ve ever received.
 
Hi All,

I'm a PharmD grad now in the workforce and I've developed an interest in continuing my education further in the field of Epidemiology.

I am very interested in health informatics, data science, and using innovative methods to mine data and address queries in the pharmacy/medical world to better address healthcare needs, especially in the realm of safety/pharmacovigilance. Since there are Epidemiology PhD programs aplenty out there (US) I think I want to pursue that intensity of training as opposed to a masters.

Does anyone have any advice or guidance towards applying for a PhD program in Epidemiology? Perhaps you have considered or done this? Any advice would be appreciated!

I'd also like to establish this thread as a center of information exchange/discussion on the topic of pharmacoepidemiology if anyone's interested.

Thanks in advance.

You're smart for considering this.

Job security, Check
High demand for foreseeable future, Check
Decreased Stress Level, Check
Career Happyness, (depends on you, but I think most are happy from the few Ive met), Check.
 
You're smart for considering this.

Job security, Check
High demand for foreseeable future, Check
Decreased Stress Level, Check
Career Happyness, (depends on you, but I think most are happy from the few Ive met), Check.

I call BS on all of that.

Job security - You overspecialized, that's actually a risk
High demand for foreseeable future - If you have the right skills and connections
Decreased Stress Level - LOL
Career Happiness - No, if you are the type of person who is "happy" with a career, just work, don't go for the PhD
Career Satisfaction - Maybe
Career agency (ability to determine the circumstances of your career) - If you have the right will.
 
I call BS on all of that.

Job security - You overspecialized, that's actually a risk
High demand for foreseeable future - If you have the right skills and connections
Decreased Stress Level - LOL
Career Happiness - No, if you are the type of person who is "happy" with a career, just work, don't go for the PhD
Career Satisfaction - Maybe
Career agency (ability to determine the circumstances of your career) - If you have the right will.

Yea. I call double BS on your response - Now the whole toilet is clogged!

Overspecialized!?!?!? What are you talking about? An epidemiologist is basically the top dog in Public health as they are relied on for having all of the research skills for qualitative and quantitative models. Every major City, County, State, and Federal government needs an epidemiologist for their health department. They also work in Academia, as Consultants at top firms, and for healthcare and Pharma companies. You can also find them working at startups, and technology firms.

Unclog the toilet!
 
Yea. I call double BS on your response - Now the whole toilet is clogged!

Overspecialized!?!?!? What are you talking about? An epidemiologist is basically the top dog in Public health as they are relied on for having all of the research skills for qualitative and quantitative models. Every major City, County, State, and Federal government needs an epidemiologist for their health department. They also work in Academia, as Consultants at top firms, and for healthcare and Pharma companies. You can also find them working at startups, and technology firms.

Unclog the toilet!

How many of these Health Department and non-academic jobs require a PhD instead of an MPH? I honestly don’t know. I do know that in many fields, a PhD closes as many doors as it opens.
 
How many of these Health Department and non-academic jobs require a PhD instead of an MPH? I honestly don’t know. I do know that in many fields, a PhD closes as many doors as it opens.

Good point. You can def use an MPH (one of the cities I'm working with is a big city, and their Epidemiologist is a MPH) - But I'd argue that bigger firms go PhD.
 
An epidemiologist is basically the top dog in Public health

Not true. A medical epidemiologist (MD/MPH or MD/PhD) is the top dog in public health.

Good point. You can def use an MPH (one of the cities I'm working with is a big city, and their Epidemiologist is a MPH) - But I'd argue that bigger firms go PhD.

Bigger firms go for the MD/MPH or MD/PhD.

Tacking a PhD in epidemiology to a PharmD will open several doors in public health and opportunities at bigger firms or at the top. But public health, and even pharmacoepidemiology specifically, is led mostly by MDs (at least in the United States, not sure about more globally, but it's almost safe to assume that's the case globally as well).
 
Not true. A medical epidemiologist (MD/MPH or MD/PhD) is the top dog in public health.



Bigger firms go for the MD/MPH or MD/PhD.

Tacking a PhD in epidemiology to a PharmD will open several doors in public health and opportunities at bigger firms or at the top. But public health, and even pharmacoepidemiology specifically, is led mostly by MDs (at least in the United States, not sure about more globally, but it's almost safe to assume that's the case globally as well).

That's right and not misinformative. Preventative Health is a well-known isolating residency in terms of employment. Same goes for the PhD and MD/PhD, there is such a thing as overspecialization. That's the effect of all the Sebastian Schneeweiss's in the business, and even Sebastian had a hard time tenuring despite going from success to success.
 
Pick advisor NOT the school ---> Great Advice

The choice will make or break your career

Don't get trapped in post-doc hell. Plan your exit strategy early and build a solid network. Goodluck
 
Pick advisor NOT the school ---> Great Advice

The choice will make or break your career

Don't get trapped in post-doc hell. Plan your exit strategy early and build a solid network. Goodluck

Yungnaira - I believe there are only a few Epidemiology PhD programs with Pharmacoepidemiology as a specific focus, while there are tons of broader Epidemiology programs. Although I understand that with such few programs, there is high competition, so I'm going to be applying to broader Epidemiology programs mostly, though, mentorship from the faculty at those few specialty programs would be amazing. Would it be appropriate to speak/meet with those faculty at various schools prior to applying for their programs? Is that the approach that competitive PhD applicants take regularly?

Thanks for your guidance.
 
Lord999 - Can you please elaborate on what you mean by SS's example?

Schneeweiss is reputed as a serious workaholic even by his own colleagues at Harvard, but he had some severe disrespect issues from being foreign trained despite being one of the most productive faculty for them. He promoted years late comparative to his accomplishments, and I do think that he is one of the few there that outperforms his own arrogance.

Also, I count at least 20 serious pharmacoepidemiology programs in the US alone (we can still all fit in a small lecture hall), and the greatest in terms of training faculty is not based in the United States, it's actually between Groningen (Taco BM Monster's home at the Netherlands and my personal vote for the best in that particular field), Heidelberg (Germany), or York (UK with NICE TAR). By the way, just because you're a pharmacist, doesn't mean you have a leg up in these departments. You actually have seriously retrain and get rid of the memorization game that pharmacy is about, that's the hardest habit to leave behind in graduate school. But remember, find a good advisor, it's more important than finding a university. I also wouldn't necessarily confine my search to the US if that really is the field you want to get into.

You also need to probably know that strict pharmacoepidemiology is a very niche field, almost everyone has more expansive training in the present day. I personally hate the term "pharmacoeconomics" in favor of "health technology assessment", because it's NOT just about the drugs, many comparisons need to be drugs versus other treatment modalities (surgery) for conditions such that a strict drug focus is a trivially solvable problem that the industry already knows how to play the game.


You really have to up your math skill before entering as you must be able to deal with statistics as a matrix issue in order to take the epidemiology major's classes in adaptive and time series. To give you an idea, the initial class (not the advanced version) for clinical trials is the Piantadosi book, and I remember it being a pretty hard intro. We have people now that start with the Jun T. Shao Mathematical Statistics (as in, the one that starts with measure theory and gets hard from there). In the first four pages, it gets quickly from sigma algebra to a countable set to conditional distribution functions and then into distributions.

Shuhari - Wikipedia
Of course, you can take the MPH Mickey major like people go to coding bootcamps, but you'll be very expendable like they are. Only the serious survive in this business, and starting slow but sure gives you the ability to go the distance unlike the short-term fixes.

By the way, others can weigh in, but I know most faculty do not have the time to talk with applicants freely especially those who have not prepared by reading our backgrounds. You are probably better off talking with the Director of Graduate Studies or equivalent and them having them guide you to students in the program to start out with.
 
Not true. A medical epidemiologist (MD/MPH or MD/PhD) is the top dog in public health.



Bigger firms go for the MD/MPH or MD/PhD.

Tacking a PhD in epidemiology to a PharmD will open several doors in public health and opportunities at bigger firms or at the top. But public health, and even pharmacoepidemiology specifically, is led mostly by MDs (at least in the United States, not sure about more globally, but it's almost safe to assume that's the case globally as well).
This is very true. Don’t think that a simple MPH will get you far, as I learned from studies in the field at Johns Hopkins before going to pharmacy school. The majority of students working on an MPH degree had already earned an MD and had worked years in the medical field, with organizations like Doctors Without Borders or in various under served areas abroad where a public health degree is applicable. For them the MPH was like the icing on the cake. Those of us who didn’t have this background found the degree to be of little value. What job you could find, if you did find one in public health paid very little and wasn’t worth the time and money spent on the degree.
 
This is very true. Don’t think that a simple MPH will get you far, as I learned from studies in the field at Johns Hopkins before going to pharmacy school. The majority of students working on an MPH degree had already earned an MD and had worked years in the medical field, with organizations like Doctors Without Borders or in various under served areas abroad where a public health degree is applicable. For them the MPH was like the icing on the cake. Those of us who didn’t have this background found the degree to be of little value. What job you could find, if you did find one in public health paid very little and wasn’t worth the time and money spent on the degree.

Thank you - I appreciate the perspective!
 
People on this forum seem to be pretty pessimistic.

PharmD, MPH will get you to an associate director / director level position. PharmD PhD should be enough to get you to senior director or VP, but at that point it is based on years of experience and who you know.

And wow, the math requirements being stated here are intense! Transcendental calculus? For epidemiology? Really? Not necessary even for machine learning and AI, but do brush up on your linear algebra, probability theory, multivariable calculus and go heavy on the statistics.
 
People on this forum seem to be pretty pessimistic.

PharmD, MPH will get you to an associate director / director level position. PharmD PhD should be enough to get you to senior director or VP, but at that point it is based on years of experience and who you know.

And wow, the math requirements being stated here are intense! Transcendental calculus? For epidemiology? Really? Not necessary even for machine learning and AI, but do brush up on your linear algebra, probability theory, multivariable calculus and go heavy on the statistics.

This may come off as an ad hominem argument, but you basically illustrate my pessimism.

Um, do you know what transcendental functions are? Let's be informal. A transcendental is a function that you cannot define using algebra alone as it becomes an infinite sequence. That's all power, logarithm (and e), trig, and most continuous probability functions. You ever wonder why you get "function fails to converge" errors in your code? That analytic (in the calculus definition) solutions don't necessarily exist (or are worth calculating) that force one of the numerical integration algorithms to show up? You have to go out of your way to avoid Taylor or Runge-Kutta methods that depend on transcendental convergence. While you do not necessarily need multivariate (who actually calculates or even conceptualizes multivariate given the numerous computer algebra systems out there?), you do need a good handle on transcendentals to have a chance of actually understanding the rest of what you wrote (and I agree on those topics though most do not actually take them seriously enough).

Look, superficial knowledge in computer science is analogous to being a retail pharmacist. You did the time in school, you supposedly know a little something, and you supposedly bring some value. But what value proposition is based on is something that is not easily differentiable, and like many things, fads like opening pharmacies come and go. Computer science has this effect, I saw the exact same behavior from Java programmers that I see from Python/R programmers today. These fads build platforms fast, their jobs are plentiful, and things seem fine.

But you don't see Java programmers anymore in the same way that superficial programmers learn one stack, but don't learn the why, and then when the technology or fad changes, they fail to adapt, and then they become the stereotype grey-haired unemployed programmer. I am not saying that all of these people are going to be unemployed, but the difference between a superficial and a real programmer is the ability to understand the fundamental concepts of the field such that they can adapt and move readily to the changing times.

For retail pharmacy, that adaptability just isn't there for the majority of pharmacists. I expect them to be abbatoir glue someday, even when the times were great in 2004. For hospital, it's not easy either, but those pharmacists usually work enough areas to be more flexible. In industry, especially IT, I don't accept anyone's competency until they survive at least one downturn. Being threatened by unemployment (or being pink slipped) in a time where jobs are more competitive, that's when you see the real stars show up, because they survive through the eras. We're in another IT bubble, there's only so much that can be done with that stack, but the real differentiators are those who can work without the manuals, who can figure out and trailblaze as well as keep up with the changing tech that will survive. That gets exhausting, and to be able to keep selling yourself when the tides change and reinvent yourself to the evolving market is what keeps you alive. But, you're not going to do it with only superficial knowledge of your trade. You're going to have to go deep, but also, know when to quit.
 
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