PhD MD route

[ryno]

Hey guys, some quick advice would be appreciated.
So I have been accepted at a top tier PhD program. As of late, I've been thinking that perhaps I would be happier doing research at the MD level (like at an academic institution) - hoping that such will provide more social interactions rather than pure lab work - I'm not sure if this is an agreeable point?

So, should I continue and get my PhD (5 years - Ochem)? Or should I take a masters (1 year), and apply now to MD programs? Will MD programs look more favorably upon an applicant with a MS or PhD? Will an MD/MS allow me to do more research than a MD?

Do many schools offer the opportunity to transfer from PhD to MD/PhD? I'm afraid my grades may not be acceptable at the medical schools where I may pursue a PhD (they have top-notch med schools). Will attending the PhD program at these schools make this transition more likely?

Thanks!

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[ChemMed]

Get a masters and apply if you want an MD/DO degree. You should check out the PhD to MD thread.

 

[gbwillner]

Hey guys, some quick advice would be appreciated.
So I have been accepted at a top tier PhD program. As of late, I've been thinking that perhaps I would be happier doing research at the MD level (like at an academic institution) - hoping that such will provide more social interactions rather than pure lab work - I'm not sure if this is an agreeable point?

So, should I continue and get my PhD (5 years - Ochem)? Or should I take a masters (1 year), and apply now to MD programs? Will MD programs look more favorably upon an applicant with a MS or PhD? Will an MD/MS allow me to do more research than a MD?

Do many schools offer the opportunity to transfer from PhD to MD/PhD? I'm afraid my grades may not be acceptable at the medical schools where I may pursue a PhD (they have top-notch med schools). Will attending the PhD program at these schools make this transition more likely?

Thanks!

Just some feedback.
1. You haven't started grad school yet- there is basically no advantage whatsoever for a masters over a BS for med school admissions. So why bother?
2. Not sure what you mean by wanted to do research at an "MD level". Does that mean you want to do clinical research (like drug trials)? Do you want to work on biological problems? Maybe you should just change from chemistry to biology?
3. Unless you want to see patients/diagnose disease, don't go into medicine.
4. There is NO way to transfer into an MD/PhD program from PhD.
5. Getting into med school is no picninc. you might have to go back to undergrad for pre reqs. You will need to study for and take the MCAT. There is only one time of the year applications are processed, and you have to have everything in by then. This could take you 2 years- don't make this decision lightly. If you went into grad school in chemistry, you probably had a good reason. You need to reflect on those reasons now and see what you really want to do in life. Once you go MD/PhD, you are basically committing to apprx. 12 more years of education.

 

[ryno]

Just some feedback.
1. You haven't started grad school yet- there is basically no advantage whatsoever for a masters over a BS for med school admissions. So why bother?
2. Not sure what you mean by wanted to do research at an "MD level". Does that mean you want to do clinical research (like drug trials)? Do you want to work on biological problems? Maybe you should just change from chemistry to biology?
3. Unless you want to see patients/diagnose disease, don't go into medicine.
4. There is NO way to transfer into an MD/PhD program from PhD.
5. Getting into med school is no picninc. you might have to go back to undergrad for pre reqs. You will need to study for and take the MCAT. There is only one time of the year applications are processed, and you have to have everything in by then. This could take you 2 years- don't make this decision lightly. If you went into grad school in chemistry, you probably had a good reason. You need to reflect on those reasons now and see what you really want to do in life. Once you go MD/PhD, you are basically committing to apprx. 12 more years of education.

Thanks so much for the reply.
Basically I went into chemistry with the goal of becoming a medicinal chemist. But, I have been recently leery of the notion that I could be stuck in a lab for the rest of my life, and further leery of job opportunities, as big pharma sends more and more research overseas, less American chemists are getting these jobs- regardless of the school they attended. Granted, things may change soon (with the economy) but there is reason to doubt we'll see the huge research spending that we saw recently ever again.
So, I thought that performing research at an academic institution (med school) would prove an attractive option. Perhaps an MD/PhD would aid in this field? After some serious reflection, I think I'll go ahead with the PhD, then apply to medical school - is this advisable? I like the notion of seeing patients and doing research.
I do have all the prereqs. I entered college wanting to attend med school and got sucked into medicinal chemistry. I have not taken the MCAT, and I suppose it is too late to undertake such an endeavor for this application cycle?

 

[OddNath]

After some serious reflection, I think I'll go ahead with the PhD, then apply to medical school - is this advisable? I like the notion of seeing patients and doing research.
I do have all the prereqs. I entered college wanting to attend med school and got sucked into medicinal chemistry. I have not taken the MCAT, and I suppose it is too late to undertake such an endeavor for this application cycle?

So, if you're going to go ahead and do the full PhD, why are you thinking about taking the MCAT "for this application cycle"?

I think MCAT scores expire after 3 years (or maybe 5 years?), so you would probably take it a little closer to when you'd actually apply to med school, which would be the summer before the last year of your PhD.

 

[Neuronix]

I do have all the prereqs. I entered college wanting to attend med school and got sucked into medicinal chemistry. I have not taken the MCAT, and I suppose it is too late to undertake such an endeavor for this application cycle?

In addition to OddNath's point, if you do a PhD first and then an MD you will likely incur the full debt of the medical degree. For this reason, if you are certain you want to pursue medical school, I would not complete a full PhD and instead apply to medical school or MD/PhD directly, even if that requires a year out. A master's or PhD will not significantly help you in medical school admissions.

If necessary, it is more advisable to take a year out during medical school to do research in your future clinical field. Note also once you start a PhD program, it looks very bad to leave your PhD program, unless you leave with a master's and convince everyone it was a master's program all along and your letters don't mention otherwise. it is almost impossible to transfer from PhD to MD/PhD and even then it would only happen at the PhD institution you start at. So do not start your PhD unless you are absolutely convinced you're ok with spending 5+ years on a PhD before even entertaining the idea of then spending 4 years on medical school with full tuition.

 

[ChemMed]

My last post was a little short. My smart phone is not the best device to type on and my swype free trial ran out. OP listen to Neuronix on this one. If you want the medical degree first and foremost then an MS or PhD wont help you much. If you really want to do both then MSTP is a good way to go. Don't forget about the debt load you most likely will be taking on if you do PhD to MD/DO. Think carefully about what you want and then move forward. This kind of training is very long and you may want other things out of your life other than 12 + years of extra training.

 

[ryno]

In addition to OddNath's point, if you do a PhD first and then an MD you will likely incur the full debt of the medical degree. For this reason, if you are certain you want to pursue medical school, I would not complete a full PhD and instead apply to medical school or MD/PhD directly, even if that requires a year out. A master's or PhD will not significantly help you in medical school admissions.

If necessary, it is more advisable to take a year out during medical school to do research in your future clinical field. Note also once you start a PhD program, it looks very bad to leave your PhD program, unless you leave with a master's and convince everyone it was a master's program all along and your letters don't mention otherwise. it is almost impossible to transfer from PhD to MD/PhD and even then it would only happen at the PhD institution you start at. So do not start your PhD unless you are absolutely convinced you're ok with spending 5+ years on a PhD before even entertaining the idea of then spending 4 years on medical school with full tuition.

Thanks for your input, Neuronix. So, it's more advisable (even at this stage) to take a year off and apply MD/PhD? What do you think about my assertion that seeing patients would provide a more social lifestyle? Are MD/PhD's who received both degrees from the same institution viewed the same as those who did not?
I'm not sure my grades are competitive for MD/PhD programs (3.64 no MCAT) - especially at the places where I would pursue a PhD. I also fear the possibility of applying to MD or MD/PhD programs and not being admitted; especially as I have an offer to attend a PhD at a great school with a stipend that should cover all living expenses.
As you may know, grad school decisions are due soon, so I have been contemplating my future very carefully - you guys' input is very helpful.

 

[OddNath]

What do you think about my assertion that seeing patients would provide a more social lifestyle?

Your lifestyle in medicine is probably more dependent on the specialty/hours than the amount of patient contact. For example, in pathology, you don't really have much [living] patient contact (unless you're in blood banking or something), but you're the doctor's doctor. And you probably have a reasonable amount of time of to socialize with friends/family. While in neurosurgery, you see patients, but when working 5am-9pm every day, it's pretty hard to be "social."

Those are kind of the extremes, but you get the idea. Similarly, lifestyle in research can vary a lot as well.

I realize that your decision is due soon, but right now, it doesn't seem like you're at all ready to apply to medical school-- you'd probably need to start shadowing here and there and think about it for a year just to figure out if you want to see patients. Then you'd need to study for the MCAT, take it, and spend another year applying. That's 2 years at least. Perhaps, you could do the PhD first while figuring the rest of this out, if you're sure that you want to devote yourself to a PhD and would be happy with a career in straight research if it turns out that you don't want to do medicine.

 

[Jorje286]

I do not think your reasons for doing the MD are the right ones. At this stage I would advise to do the PhD. You should only do the MD if you absolutely cannot see your career without clinical duties/patient care. You are basically adding at least 8 years to your formation (8 years taken from your life), and doing it because you want to see people outside the lab is not good enough reason to go through the arduous training. Med school and residency are very draining and one needs to be very motivated to get through in a sane manner.

At the very least I advise to get as much experience with the clinical fields as possible (volunteering just to understand the hospital environment, shadowing physicians and most importantly speaking with physicians) before committing to the MD.

 

[ChemMed]

I do not think your reasons for doing the MD are the right ones. At this stage I would advise to do the PhD. You should only do the MD if you absolutely cannot see your career without clinical duties/patient care. You are basically adding at least 8 years to your formation (8 years taken from your life), and doing it because you want to see people outside the lab is not good enough reason to go through the arduous training. Med school and residency are very draining and one needs to be very motivated to get through in a sane manner.

At the very least I advise to get as much experience with the clinical fields as possible (volunteering just to understand the hospital environment, shadowing physicians and most importantly speaking with physicians) before committing to the MD.

I second this. I think the time would not be worth it unless you are absolutely sure that this is what you want to do.

 

[Maebea]

4. There is NO way to transfer into an MD/PhD program from PhD.

Have to disagree with you on this; it is possible to transfer from PhD to MD-PhD. I have seen this happen at my program & at other institutions. The frequency of this happening is quite low. At my program, only 0.75% of MSTP students have transferred from the PhD, whereas 13% have transferred from the MD.

Aside from this point, gbwillner was correct (as usual).

 

[Neuronix]

As Maebea points out, it is possible to internal transfer from PhD->MD/PhD but it is very rare and only allowed at a few programs. I would NOT bet on it happening. I've seen people apply to other MD/PhD programs from within a different PhD program, but I don't know or have heard of anyone being successful at it. Maybe it has happened, but it's also very unlikely.

So, it's more advisable (even at this stage) to take a year off and apply MD/PhD?

If you are serious about applying to medical school or MD/PhD, I'd do it now. Once you start a PhD program you should really consider yourself to be locked into it for the next 5+ years. It looks bad to drop and it's very hard to transfer out.

What do you think about my assertion that seeing patients would provide a more social lifestyle?

I have a hard time evaluating this. Social in what way? Yes you play doctor, but that's not exactly social. It's a professional and often stressful interaction. Some people really enjoy patient interactions and some people do not. Regardless, even in radiology there is this stereotype that they get no interaction. Which is completely untrue considering the many procedures and the amount of communication performed with other physicians. Then there's the lab environment. The lab is social in its own way. There's certainly plenty of interaction within the lab and the department at the least.

Personally, I consider a social lifestyle to be the lifestyle I enjoy outside of work. Then again the neurosurgeons and nsurg residents at my home program enjoy a level of (seemingly bizzare) comradery that helps them through being in the hospital all of the time. So I think in the end what you consider social and what you want out of life in this way is very personal.

Are MD/PhD's who received both degrees from the same institution viewed the same as those who did not?

Viewed in what way? I would say yes guessing your intent. There are certainly snobs out there who think a standalone PhD is better than a PhD earned a combined degree program, but I just ignore that small minority of pricks.

I'm not sure my grades are competitive for MD/PhD programs (3.64 no MCAT) - especially at the places where I would pursue a PhD. I also fear the possibility of applying to MD or MD/PhD programs and not being admitted; especially as I have an offer to attend a PhD at a great school with a stipend that should cover all living expenses.
As you may know, grad school decisions are due soon, so I have been contemplating my future very carefully - you guys' input is very helpful.

3.64 is not bad if combined with a high MCAT score. But not having an MCAT score does make it a gamble. How many years of research experience do you have?

 

[soundnin]

...As of late, I've been thinking that perhaps I would be happier doing research at the MD level (like at an academic institution)

... So, I thought that performing research at an academic institution (med school) would prove an attractive option...

i don't know why nobody has commented on this. OP seems to think that to do research in a hospital, you need a MD. ryno, if that's the case, totally not true.

 

[ryno]

As Maebea points out, it is possible to internal transfer from PhD->MD/PhD but it is very rare and only allowed at a few programs. I would NOT bet on it happening. I've seen people apply to other MD/PhD programs from within a different PhD program, but I don't know or have heard of anyone being successful at it. Maybe it has happened, but it's also very unlikely.



If you are serious about applying to medical school or MD/PhD, I'd do it now. Once you start a PhD program you should really consider yourself to be locked into it for the next 5+ years. It looks bad to drop and it's very hard to transfer out.



I have a hard time evaluating this. Social in what way? Yes you play doctor, but that's not exactly social. It's a professional and often stressful interaction. Some people really enjoy patient interactions and some people do not. Regardless, even in radiology there is this stereotype that they get no interaction. Which is completely untrue considering the many procedures and the amount of communication performed with other physicians. Then there's the lab environment. The lab is social in its own way. There's certainly plenty of interaction within the lab and the department at the least.

Personally, I consider a social lifestyle to be the lifestyle I enjoy outside of work. Then again the neurosurgeons and nsurg residents at my home program enjoy a level of (seemingly bizzare) comradery that helps them through being in the hospital all of the time. So I think in the end what you consider social and what you want out of life in this way is very personal.



Viewed in what way? I would say yes guessing your intent. There are certainly snobs out there who think a standalone PhD is better than a PhD earned a combined degree program, but I just ignore that small minority of pricks.



3.64 is not bad if combined with a high MCAT score. But not having an MCAT score does make it a gamble. How many years of research experience do you have?

I have a fair amount of research - 3 REU's (all med/organic chem) and 4 semesters of research while taking classes.

Thanks again for all the info. I have thought about the notion of taking the MCAT this summer and applying to med schools this summer. I could then go ahead and attend my PhD program in the Fall. By the time I would matriculate I should have aquired a masters (or I could defer a year). Is this advisable? Seems like my PhD institution may not be too pleased with this, and I'm not trying to burn bridges.

The more I research, I think my stats are a bit low for MD/PhD programs.

 

[Neuronix]

By the time I would matriculate I should have aquired a masters (or I could defer a year). Is this advisable? Seems like my PhD institution may not be too pleased with this, and I'm not trying to burn bridges.

If the PhD institution is not pleased with it, don't do it. The only way you can make this scenario work is if the PhD department is okay with the idea of saying (or at least not letting on otherwise) that you never intended to pursue a full PhD and were a strong master's student with a lot of potential. If you start as a PhD student and they are mad at you for leaving with a master's, nobody will write you a letter like this.

Instead, work as a research tech. A master's is not going to look more impressive than a year or two out of productive research. If anything, it will require coursework and teaching that will distract you from the lab. It's questionable whether the master's credits and lab work will help you finish the PhD any faster if the PhD is at a different intistution.

The more I research, I think my stats are a bit low for MD/PhD programs.

3.64 is not that low. If you spend a year out doing research and score well on the MCAT (say 35+) you will be fine. Remember to get some shadowing/volunteering in there for medical school side (at least 50 hours, I recommend 100). It's not necessary, but advisable.

 

[ryno]

So I think I've decided that I would like to end up at an academic institution (med school) where I can carry out research (perhaps clinical) and see patients (maybe a day a week).
So I'm going to go ahead and proceed with my PhD and then apply to medical school. I've been advised by a med school physician that having both an MD and a PhD will help (very much) me land such a position (over just an MD). It just seems foolish to pass up a PhD opportunity where I'll make make money for 5 years.
I'm still contemplating applying to medical school this summer. This way, my letters will come from my undergrad professors. But I'll hear a decision while I'm in my second semester as a PhD student. I guess this could serve as a backup plan in case the graduate program is just not for me (I'm worried that if I find out grad school is not to my liking, I'll be faced with the task of getting into med school after dropping out of a PhD program - which will look bad).

 

[QofQuimica]

So I think I've decided that I would like to end up at an academic institution (med school) where I can carry out research (perhaps clinical) and see patients (maybe a day a week).
So I'm going to go ahead and proceed with my PhD and then apply to medical school. I've been advised by a med school physician that having both an MD and a PhD will help (very much) me land such a position (over just an MD). It just seems foolish to pass up a PhD opportunity where I'll make make money for 5 years.
I'm still contemplating applying to medical school this summer. This way, my letters will come from my undergrad professors. But I'll hear a decision while I'm in my second semester as a PhD student. I guess this could serve as a backup plan in case the graduate program is just not for me (I'm worried that if I find out grad school is not to my liking, I'll be faced with the task of getting into med school after dropping out of a PhD program - which will look bad).

If you are sure that you want both degrees, you should wait this year out and apply MD/PhD this summer (or next year if you're not ready yet). Going the PhD-to-MD route is much tougher and more expensive than doing a combined program is, and it takes a lot longer too. Having been a student adcom for the past four years (as well as having gone through the process of applying PhD-to-MD myself), I can tell you that no, adcoms will not be falling all over themselves to recruit you just because you have a PhD. If your UG grades are the problem, what you need to do is some kind of postbac or SMP to improve your scholastic record. Getting a PhD will not do that.

Also, it may not be possible for you to stay in grad school until you get a med school acceptance and then drop out. At my school, we won't matriculate an applicant who is already active in another graduate program, unless you will graduate in time to start med school. So, it's fine to apply during the last year of your PhD, assuming you defend and graduate before matriculating in medical school. This is what I did. But it is not fine to apply while still a first year grad student with the plan of dropping out once you get an acceptance. It is also not fair to your PI, especially if s/he is paying your stipend and tuition. I highly advise against doing this. If you aren't sure whether grad school is for you, then consider doing an MS instead of a PhD. You can always stay on after getting the MS if you want. Alternatively, if you decide that you want to go to med school instead, you're only committing to two years instead of five.

 

[Neuronix]

So I think I've decided that I would like to end up at an academic institution (med school) where I can carry out research (perhaps clinical) and see patients (maybe a day a week).
So I'm going to go ahead and proceed with my PhD and then apply to medical school. I've been advised by a med school physician that having both an MD and a PhD will help (very much) me land such a position (over just an MD). It just seems foolish to pass up a PhD opportunity where I'll make make money for 5 years.

In addition to QofQ's excellent post, I strongly disagree with your advisor. You don't need a PhD to do clinical research, and you don't really need a PhD to do research. The factors for faculty hiring are varied, but they are nowhere near as simple as a PhD strongly helping you get the position you want.

 

[ChemMed]

I also agree with Q. This way of becoming a physician scientist is the one a person takes when no other roads are open to you and you know without a doubt that this is what you want to do.

If you are sure that you want both degrees, you should wait this year out and apply MD/PhD this summer (or next year if you're not ready yet). Going the PhD-to-MD route is much tougher and more expensive than doing a combined program is, and it takes a lot longer too. Having been a student adcom for the past four years (as well as having gone through the process of applying PhD-to-MD myself), I can tell you that no, adcoms will not be falling all over themselves to recruit you just because you have a PhD. If your UG grades are the problem, what you need to do is some kind of postbac or SMP to improve your scholastic record. Getting a PhD will not do that.

Also, it may not be possible for you to stay in grad school until you get a med school acceptance and then drop out. At my school, we won't matriculate an applicant who is already active in another graduate program, unless you will graduate in time to start med school. So, it's fine to apply during the last year of your PhD, assuming you defend and graduate before matriculating in medical school. This is what I did. But it is not fine to apply while still a first year grad student with the plan of dropping out once you get an acceptance. It is also not fair to your PI, especially if s/he is paying your stipend and tuition. I highly advise against doing this. If you aren't sure whether grad school is for you, then consider doing an MS instead of a PhD. You can always stay on after getting the MS if you want. Alternatively, if you decide that you want to go to med school instead, you're only committing to two years instead of five.

 

[PTPoeny]

So I think I've decided that I would like to end up at an academic institution (med school) where I can carry out research (perhaps clinical) and see patients (maybe a day a week).
So I'm going to go ahead and proceed with my PhD and then apply to medical school. I've been advised by a med school physician that having both an MD and a PhD will help (very much) me land such a position (over just an MD). It just seems foolish to pass up a PhD opportunity where I'll make make money for 5 years.
I'm still contemplating applying to medical school this summer. This way, my letters will come from my undergrad professors. But I'll hear a decision while I'm in my second semester as a PhD student. I guess this could serve as a backup plan in case the graduate program is just not for me (I'm worried that if I find out grad school is not to my liking, I'll be faced with the task of getting into med school after dropping out of a PhD program - which will look bad).

Is the seeing patients part important to you? Because there are plenty of PhDs doing research at medical schools and teaching medical school classes.