Physically assaulted by attending

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Latindoc

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During morning rounds my peer medical student was physically assaulted by the attending. The attending lost his cool after my friend wasn't answering his questions. The attending grabbed my friend's face with both of his hands and smashed it on one of the ventilators, no injuries were inflicted. A few days passed by and thought all was just a unfortunate situation, but now my friend is going to file a police report for misdemeanor assault and asked me if I could testify as a witness. I'd be more than glad to do so because bullies like this attending do not deserve to be called doctors. I understand that being yelled at, or even being humillated (which has happened to me) is part of the medical field, but being physically attacked crosses the line. We both are MS4 and ERAS has been sent already, so I'm not worried about possible academic consequences me or my friend could have, or should we?
 
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The internet isn't the best place to ask legal questions. I'm not a lawyer. There are some lawyers on the boards here, but that sounds like battery more than assault.

The behavior itself isn't acceptable. The attending should be held accountable for his or her actions, and you should not worry about possible academic consequences, but one thing you should have done is report it to the clerkship director. That is far from acceptable behavior - it's criminal and this attending should not be teaching medical students, full stop.
 
akinetopsia said:
The internet isn't the best place to ask legal questions. I'm not a lawyer. There are some lawyers on the boards here, but that sounds like battery more than assault.

The behavior itself isn't acceptable. The attending should be held accountable for his or her actions, and you should not worry about possible academic consequences, but one thing you should have done is report it to the clerkship director. That is far from acceptable behavior - it's criminal and this attending should not be teaching medical students, full stop.
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Yeah, you are right, I don't know much about legal issues, but after doing some google research, this is definitely a battery. Thanks for the advice.
 
I'm not sure how some random attendings misbehavior is going to impact your ERAS application. I can tell you, if one of my colleagues did that to a student, I'm sure there would be major consequences for the attending. Letting something like that slide is not the right approach.
 
Probably should report it to the clerkship director... doubt they'll be very happy if they get blindsided by the police.
 
I would have nothing to do with it. You are in a precarious position and many who have tried to play hero only get hurt.

Just imagine, what are you going to get out of this? Fire the attending? Justice? Nothing tangible. So whats the point?

And just look at the other threads. Dude gets unprofessionalism for going to a funeral. Lol.
 
bannie22 said:
I would have nothing to do with it. You are in a precarious position and many who have tried to play hero only get hurt.

Just imagine, what are you going to get out of this? Fire the attending? Justice? Nothing tangible. So whats the point?

And just look at the other threads. Dude gets unprofessionalism for going to a funeral. Lol.
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Have a spine. It's a sad state of affairs when refusing to allow physical abuse is "playing hero."
 
In my last career I had a colleague that got accused of assault for spanking an intern in a locker room kind of way. It didn't turn out well for the intern.

Not condoning this behavior, just saying the folks on the bottom of the totem pole tend to get the worse end of the deal when they try to play this game.
 
Your friend needs to decide what to do. Two options -- involve the police, or involve HR. HR will take something like this very seriously also. I agree that letting it slide is unacceptable. Once it gets reported, you will be asked about it since you were there. It's not really your choice to be a witness or not. Once you're asked about it, you report the facts.
 
aProgDirector said:
Your friend needs to decide what to do. Two options -- involve the police, or involve HR. HR will take something like this very seriously also. I agree that letting it slide is unacceptable. Once it gets reported, you will be asked about it since you were there. It's not really your choice to be a witness or not. Once you're asked about it, you report the facts.
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I would add the caveat that HR is not there to protect any employee, but rather the company. Fortunately in this instance, protecting the company would likely mean disciplining the attending - but just a friendly reminder not to put blind trust in them.
 
Azete said:
In my last career I had a colleague that got accused of assault for spanking an intern in a locker room kind of way. It didn't turn out well for the intern.

Not condoning this behavior, just saying the folks on the bottom of the totem pole tend to get the worse end of the deal when they try to play this game.
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True, but there's a difference between an action that is supposed to be positive (even if it is improper) and physically smashing someone's head into anything because you're mad that they didn't respond to you. The attending could have easily just given the student crappy comments/grades, reported him to the school for unprofessionalism, or just told him to get out. There's no place for assault or battery or however you want to classify physical violence in the medical profession, and hearing people say that this shouldn't be reported makes me wonder what the atmosphere of the institutions they've worked/rotated at are like that they don't feel this needs to be reported.
 
Good luck, this is a tough situation. The closest I ever came was being kicked quite hard by an attending. I brought it to the attention of the program director who was really good friends with this attending and in a matter of words told me nothing good could come of this and that he was expected to retire soon. I ended up keeping my head down and getting through residency without making any splashes. However, if my head would have been slammed against a vent I would have most likely filed charges if not wanting to hit back.

After an event like that I think my willingness to fight the attending and my RSBI would both be high 😉....I'll show myself out.
 
Latindoc said:
During morning rounds my peer medical student was physically assaulted by the attending. The attending lost his cool after my friend wasn't answering his questions. The attending grabbed my friend's face with both of his hands and smashed it on one of the ventilators, no injuries were inflicted. A few days passed by and thought all was just a unfortunate situation, but now my friend is going to file a police report for misdemeanor assault and asked me if I could testify as a witness. I'd be more than glad to do so because bullies like this attending do not deserve to be called doctors. I understand that being yelled at, or even being humillated (which has happened to me) is part of the medical field, but being physically attacked crosses the line. We both are MS4 and ERAS has been sent already, so I'm not worried about possible academic consequences me or my friend could have, or should we?
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This happened in the us?
 
GroverPsychMD said:
This happened in the us?
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Yeah, unfortunately it happened in the US. My only concern is the retaliation the attending could do. My friend is going into ortho and I'm going into neuro. I was thinking he could call program directors to the places we are applying and talk shi* about us. But, I'm thinking, how is he gonna know where we are applying??
 
Do not involve HR. HR is not there for you. HR is there for the hospital as a business. It is their job to protect the hospital, and if that means the defendant/accuser gets the short end of the stick, so be it. Talk to a lawyer first, then decide on who to talk to at your school based on lawyers advice.
 
As an aside: why was your friend being unresponsive? Not that it mitigates the reprehensibility of the attending's actions in the slightest, but it does seem rather disrespectful/odd to not answer someone when they're talking to you. It would be one thing if he was answering the questions incorrectly, but to not answer at all is certainly passive-aggressive. Again, this doesn't make what the attending did any less terrible. He still deserves to be punished for what he did.
 
Latindoc said:
Yeah, unfortunately it happened in the US. My only concern is the retaliation the attending could do. My friend is going into ortho and I'm going into neuro. I was thinking he could call program directors to the places we are applying and talk shi* about us. But, I'm thinking, how is he gonna know where we are applying??
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Thanks for standing behind your friend. I hope the attending will be censured at the least.
 
Latindoc said:
During morning rounds my peer medical student was physically assaulted by the attending. The attending lost his cool after my friend wasn't answering his questions. The attending grabbed my friend's face with both of his hands and smashed it on one of the ventilators, no injuries were inflicted. A few days passed by and thought all was just a unfortunate situation, but now my friend is going to file a police report for misdemeanor assault and asked me if I could testify as a witness. I'd be more than glad to do so because bullies like this attending do not deserve to be called doctors. I understand that being yelled at, or even being humillated (which has happened to me) is part of the medical field, but being physically attacked crosses the line. We both are MS4 and ERAS has been sent already, so I'm not worried about possible academic consequences me or my friend could have, or should we?
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The fact that this is even up for debate is absurd. I'm sorry if this is having any negative impact on your mental well-being but I'm really questioning your judgement here for even questioning the right course of action. I would have reported it immediately and had the physician removed immediately. By keeping quiet, you essentially let an out-of-control individual stay in a place where he could have harmed others. Now just email the Clerkship Director, but also go straight to the Dean, and definitely cooperate with the police report. Do whatever it takes to remove this physician from interacting with your classmates. No human is above another when it comes to such fundamental human decencies. I can't stand how some people (no one particular on this thread) feel that medicine is this a super special entity that deserves special consideration for every little(or in this case big) thing in life. Grow out of it! We're all humans and at the end of the day this is a job...An enormous privilege yes, but still just a job that all of us are imperfect at.
 
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Latindoc said:
Yeah, unfortunately it happened in the US. My only concern is the retaliation the attending could do. My friend is going into ortho and I'm going into neuro. I was thinking he could call program directors to the places we are applying and talk shi* about us. But, I'm thinking, how is he gonna know where we are applying??
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Are you crazy? If this is handled properly, the attending should be slapped with heavy charges and will have no legitimacy in the medical community afterwards. Open your eyes and grow a spine. Yeah, you're at the bottom of the totem pole but that is only when it comes to education and patient care, not with basic human decency.
 
I understand the attending is in a place of power compared to the student and the professional setting makes it difficult to respond how one normally would outside the hospital, but man, I can't imagine just standing there and allowing someone to grab me by the face and smash it against a vent. I'm glad your friend has self control because I don't know if I could have allowed that to happen without at least a shove back.
 
What the hell is wrong with doctors? Seriously I think that a substantial number of people who go to medical school must have some sort of mental illness because even at my school there have been several reports of attendings throwing stuff at residents, nurses, and students and making people cry from humiliation. This sort of thing cannot be allowed to continue and it boggles my mind that some people think that there's nothing wrong with such things happening.
 
Agree that this behavior completely crosses the line and needs to be reported. The question, of course, is, what is the best way to go about that?

Who is the faculty member at your med school that your friend most trusts and feels that he can talk to about this situation? I would advise him to start there, for two reasons: 1) the hierarchy in medicine is unbalanced, a fact of which your friend and you are already clearly aware. Having a trusted faculty member's support will help mitigate that imbalance of power and avoid retribution from the attending; and 2) the faculty member would logistically be able to help your friend navigate filing a grievance and go through other aspects of the institutional process. At my med school, in a situation like this, I would have gone to my faculty advisor or my Student Dean (and likely both). Going to the clerkship director is also reasonable if your friend feels comfortable with that individual. But he should report the incident to SOMEBODY on the faculty, not only so that it is on record and can be dealt with, but so that provisions can be made for your friend's physical safety, such as transferring him to a different team.

For yourself, what I recommend you do is write down everything you remember about what happened that day, and keep it somewhere safe. Do this as soon as possible so that all details are fresh in your mind, and make sure to sign and date it. Beyond that, do not get involved with "helping" your friend. As others have already pointed out, if your testimony is wanted, it will be asked for. However, if you feel like your own safety is at risk from this attending, you should speak to your own advisor or to the clerkship director immediately so that they can arrange for you to be transferred to a different team as well.
 
It isn't easy to stand up to bullies when they are attending physicians and you are in a position of less power and authority.

I've had to do it a couple of times (both ortho surgeons, now that I reflect on it...) and it sucks. In both situations, including one involving a direct physical assault by the surgeon of an OR tech, nothing happened to the physician that we were made aware of. If there were any penalty for them that happened behind closed doors, that wasn't made clear to the victims. Just, HR moved the folks who had been abused to another area so that they didn't interact with that surgeon as much and nothing else seemed to come of it. Seeing a few outcomes like that can help to reinforce the idea that there is no use speaking up.

But, if no one ever tries, nothing can ever change. Your friend is brave to speak up, and to go to the police - which may have a better effect than going through HR, just based on what I have seen personally. As others have said, if you saw it, you can say what you saw when you are asked for your statement. Maybe it will make a difference.
 
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