Physician Assistant is better than Rph

[MrBonita]

I already posted that a PA makes more money in Southern Cal. But now I am looking at admissions. I looked at the Western University prospective students for both. The results are below. I can see why being a PA is better. Two years school vs 4. Your job is clinical and not pill pushing. PAs and nurses are taking over blood pressure, cholesterol, and diabetes clinics. Coumadin clinics have lost 70 percent of their volume due to direct thrombin inhibitors. Based on the data below, PA students have a higher gpa, more competitive, more applicants.

For PA

Applicant Scores
Number of Applications Received 1810
Number of Interviews Granted 493
Number of Students Enrolled 98
Applicant Scores
Average Overall GPA 3.55
Average Prerequisite GPA 3.62
Average Science GPA 3.53

For Pharm.D

Applicant Counts
Number of PharmCAS Applications Received 1046
Number of Interviews Granted 480
Number of Enrolled Students 128
Applicant Scores
Average Overall GPA 3.44
Average Science GPA 3.33

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[wagrxm2000]

Hmm, troll thread? I think so.

 

[statepharmagent]

I'm pretty sure majority of pharmacists are aware how bad the situation is now and that a lot of the students accepted to pharmacy school nowadays wouldn't have sniffed an interview if they applied when we all did years ago. Is it really that surprising the better students with higher GPAs choose to go into other careers with more opportunity and pay and the ones with low gpas decide to take a chance at pharmacy vs working at mickey Ds? Not rocket science.

 

[allantois]

What’s the point of this thread?

 

[Seriously Serious]

You are comparing one profession that is at its worst versus another that is at its best.

 

[PAtoPharm]

From talking with local pharmacists (including a hospital DOP), other management-level hospital staff, doctors, and PAs/NPs, the general consensus seems to be that the market is demanding practitioners who can basically "do what a doctor does" and get reimbursed for it by insurance companies. At least one of these local hospitals has a pharmacy residency program, and the DOP said they haven't hired a single graduate from the program in over 3 years. The DOP (who feels that I 100% made the right decision) even admitted that unless pharmacists get at least some form of provider status recognition, the upper-level executive management at the hospital have said they have a hard time justifying funding clinical pharmacy positions that don't pay for themselves via direct reimbursement (she said they have tried to convince them to take a "cost savings" approach to justifying the funding for clinical pharmacists but that they aren't going for it).

Another issue seems to be with the perception of what pharmacists are actually trying to do. As the DOP explained to me, the issue (aside from the reimbursement one) with having pharmacists work in BP/cholesterol/diabetes (as MrBonita mentioned) clinics is that the hospital doesn't just want to pay a practitioner to configure/reconfigure someone's medication dose to treat one of these conditions - they want a practitioner who can do that along with a standard H&P work-up. To paraphrase the DOP, it's almost as if pharmacists are stuck in the middle trying to provide some sort of service that they can't get reimbursed for, but even if they COULD get reimbursed for it, the hospitals would prefer to hire someone who can do that work along with the other services/examinations that are performed during a standard "check up." So even if pharmacists had provider status, the prospect of hiring a clinical pharmacist still wouldn't be all that favorable to certain hospitals since they still wouldn't be providing enough of a full-spectrum service like MDs/DOs/PAs/NPs.

 

[Rouelle]

I already posted that a PA makes more money in Southern Cal. But now I am looking at admissions. I looked at the Western University prospective students for both. The results are below. I can see why being a PA is better. Two years school vs 4. Your job is clinical and not pill pushing. PAs and nurses are taking over blood pressure, cholesterol, and diabetes clinics. Coumadin clinics have lost 70 percent of their volume due to direct thrombin inhibitors. Based on the data below, PA students have a higher gpa, more competitive, more applicants.

For PA

Applicant Scores
Number of Applications Received 1810
Number of Interviews Granted 493
Number of Students Enrolled 98
Applicant Scores
Average Overall GPA 3.55
Average Prerequisite GPA 3.62
Average Science GPA 3.53

For Pharm.D

Applicant Counts
Number of PharmCAS Applications Received 1046
Number of Interviews Granted 480
Number of Enrolled Students 128
Applicant Scores
Average Overall GPA 3.44
Average Science GPA 3.33

Not to hijack your thread, but I would argue that the Factor Xa inhibitors are offering more direct competition to Coumadin clinics than the direct thrombin inhibitors are.

 

[BenJammin]

I would totally be on board with the OP post if the application stats weren't coming from a no name university.

 

[gwarm01]

I'm having trouble deciding if this thread is either..

A. A blatant troll thread
B. A calculated attempt to dissuade new students from attending pharmacy school
C. Meta-level PA2Pharm parody

To seriously address this thread, its disappointing that pharmacists want to distance themselves from and devalue the importance of their traditional role. There is no shame in dispensing.. in fact, it's one of the most valuable things we do. A "clinical recommendation" isn't worth too much if the physician enters something incorrectly into their EMR. It's even less effective if what is given to the patient is not what was ordered.

You know who brings value to a health system? Your inpatient staff pharmacist. The person who verifies every single order for every single patient in the hospital to ensure it is safe, appropriate, and effective. The person who then ensures we dispense the correct medication to the right patient in the indicated form at the prescribed dose. If you are just clicking verify without thinking or signing your initials on a label without really looking, you are doing a disservice to your patients and selling yourself short.

 

[steveysmith54]

I would totally be on board with the OP post if the application stats weren't coming from a no name university.

It’s one of older DO schools, 4th oldest pharmacy school in CA (after UCSF, USC, UOP) established in 1996. School also has vet, dental, pt, Np, program...

No name is subjective, but school is def not a new diploma mill school...

 

[steveysmith54]

I don’t mind posts like this because they are easily ignorable... However, I think this post belongs in PRE Pharmacy discussion forum... this can be useful or helpful for someone who has not entered a professional program, is on the fence and needs to decide between both, etc... majority of us are pharmacists here and I believe this is useless for us, this board of was intended to discuss topics more relevant to practice in the Pharmacy scope/profession

 

[Rouelle]

I tend to agree. Would love keep the big boy forum related to the practice of the profession and store the pre-pharm threads in the pre-pharm forum. In the Pharmacy forum these just feel like more trolling than anything else.

 

[wagrxm2000]

From talking with local pharmacists (including a hospital DOP), other management-level hospital staff, doctors, and PAs/NPs, the general consensus seems to be that the market is demanding practitioners who can basically "do what a doctor does" and get reimbursed for it by insurance companies. At least one of these local hospitals has a pharmacy residency program, and the DOP said they haven't hired a single graduate from the program in over 3 years. The DOP (who feels that I 100% made the right decision) even admitted that unless pharmacists get at least some form of provider status recognition, the upper-level executive management at the hospital have said they have a hard time justifying funding clinical pharmacy positions that don't pay for themselves via direct reimbursement (she said they have tried to convince them to take a "cost savings" approach to justifying the funding for clinical pharmacists but that they aren't going for it).

Another issue seems to be with the perception of what pharmacists are actually trying to do. As the DOP explained to me, the issue (aside from the reimbursement one) with having pharmacists work in BP/cholesterol/diabetes (as MrBonita mentioned) clinics is that the hospital doesn't just want to pay a practitioner to configure/reconfigure someone's medication dose to treat one of these conditions - they want a practitioner who can do that along with a standard H&P work-up. To paraphrase the DOP, it's almost as if pharmacists are stuck in the middle trying to provide some sort of service that they can't get reimbursed for, but even if they COULD get reimbursed for it, the hospitals would prefer to hire someone who can do that work along with the other services/examinations that are performed during a standard "check up." So even if pharmacists had provider status, the prospect of hiring a clinical pharmacist still wouldn't be all that favorable to certain hospitals since they still wouldn't be providing enough of a full-spectrum service like MDs/DOs/PAs/NPs.

Here's your cookie, good boy .

 

[steveysmith54]

I tend to agree. Would love keep the big boy forum related to the practice of the profession and store the pre-pharm threads in the pre-pharm forum. In the Pharmacy forum these just feel like more trolling than anything else.

I think another solution is to create ONE common thread to discuss PA topics here and any newly started threads as such should be merged in one thread...

 

[allantois]

I think another solution is to create ONE common thread to discuss PA topics here and any newly started threads as such should be merged in one thread...

Or just allow AAtoPharmtoPAtoBarista(??) to post in his personal-rant thread only lol

 

[Rouelle]

I think another solution is to create ONE common thread to discuss PA topics here and any newly started threads as such should be merged in one thread...

Well we have that Job Market/Outlook mega thread that I always viewed as the Dumpster thread for topics like this. It doesn’t seem like these threads are being moved there anymore. Perhaps I had that thread’s purpose envisioned incorrectly in my mind.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Here's your cookie, good boy .

And here's your bonus (I recall you said you were on track to make $170k this year) for meeting Walgreens' metrics... oh wait, no nevermind

 

[PAtoPharm]

Or just allow AAtoPharmtoPAtoBarista(??) to post in his personal-rant thread only lol

Hey genius, did you notice that I didn't start the thread?

 

[PharmtoCS]

I don't get why people would rather annoy currently practicing pharmacists here than join me in the pre-pharm forum telling others to study computer science or PA.

 

[wagrxm2000]

And here's your bonus (I recall you said you were on track to make $170k this year) for meeting Walgreens' metrics... oh wait, no nevermind

Bonus went through last week and it was most likely more then what you made all year, assuming you work seeing as no one has any idea what you currently do for a paycheck since it appears all you do is talk to random middle management.

It's probably best you just go eat that cookie, preferably in a different forum.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Bonus went through last week and it was most likely more then what you made all year, assuming you work seeing as no one has any idea what you currently do for a paycheck since it appears all you do is talk to random middle management.

It's probably best you just go eat that cookie, preferably in a different forum.

Ok, how about your raise for next year? Every single PA, NP, and AA/CRNA I know is getting a standard raise for next year, regardless of whether they met a host of corporate metrics. Surely you're receiving a cost of living raise for being one of the all-star pharmacists in your district?

 

[gwarm01]

I think another solution is to create ONE common thread to discuss PA topics here and any newly started threads as such should be merged in one thread...

Why dedicate any discussion to the PA career when there is an entire forum for them just a few scrolls down?

 

[steveysmith54]

Why dedicate any discussion to the PA career when there is an entire forum for them just a few scrolls down?

You have a point and I agree with you. My suggestion is for sake of appeasing those want to cry freedom of speech and i can post where i want cry babies.

 

[Gombrich12]

Who cares? Being a garbage man in some cities in california is better than being an rph.

 

[steveysmith54]

Who cares? Being a garbage man in some cities in california is better than being an rph.

This San Francisco Janitor Made More Than $270,000 Last Year

This San Francisco Janitor Made More Than $270,000 Last Yea

 

[HeNeedsSomeMilk]

Isn't it harder to be a garbage man in nyc than getting accepted to a pa or pharmacy school? I heard they accept like 2 applicants out of 5000 people. So why not be a garbage man instead of going to the health care field?

 

[gwarm01]

This San Francisco Janitor Made More Than $270,000 Last Year

This San Francisco Janitor Made More Than $270,000 Last Yea

Can't be worse than maintaining my house and cleaning after my pets. Where do I sign up?

 

[wagrxm2000]

Been thinking about an apprenticeship as an elevator technician in my spare time. Heard they make like $75k. Not bad for a part time retirement gig.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

PAs also do Pap smears and nasty chit like that... no thanks. I’ll continue to click the mouse every once in a while and eat chips n queso in the basement.


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[mustang sally]

If you want to be a PA, be a PA. If you want to be a pharmacist, be a pharmacist.

Maybe I just got lucky, but my job is actually pretty fun.

 

[Dred Pirate]

It’s one of older DO schools, 4th oldest pharmacy school in CA (after UCSF, USC, UOP) established in 1996. School also has vet, dental, pt, Np, program...

No name is subjective, but school is def not a new diploma mill school...

I am just shocked that 1996 is the fourth oldest pharmacy school in California -

 

[Dred Pirate]

Ok, how about your raise for next year? Every single PA, NP, and AA/CRNA I know is getting a standard raise for next year, regardless of whether they met a host of corporate metrics. Surely you're receiving a cost of living raise for being one of the all-star pharmacists in your district?

I got 6.5% last year

 

[AlwaysContrary]

It's also important to note that the boom for NPs and PA will definitely not last. There are even more schools pushing out new grads and the jobs and demand will quickly fill up just like pharmacy. As well, even if this troll post is trying to make it the opposite, it's way easier to become a PA and NP then to become a pharmacist.

I also feel clinically pharmacists are most valuable with very complex patients. If you go onto the medical forum they will tell you that pharmacists are at their best when these type of patients come through. PA and NP don't even come close to our knowledge of complex medication regimens and thus will never be able to replace us. Even doctors will admit they don't have this knowledge base. I hate it that we try to compare ourselves to NPs and PA when our expertise is on a completely different ball field.

 

[Rouelle]

I am just shocked that 1996 is the fourth oldest pharmacy school in California -

I’m there with you. When I think old/established pharmacy schools, ~100 years old comes to mind.

 

[steveysmith54]

Can't be worse than maintaining my house and cleaning after my pets. Where do I sign up?

I am just shocked that 1996 is the fourth oldest pharmacy school in California -

I lived through... let me give u a crash course in history of pharm schools in CA and job market....

Been there forever
UCSF- converted themselves into a 3 yr program last year
UOP-3 yr program
USC

1996
WesternU

2002-2005
UCSD
Loma Linda
Touro

First real sign of Saturation was in 2009 when that group of schools graduated their first class...

2008
CAL Northatate

2013-2016
Chapman- 3 yr program
KGI
California Heath sciences-same dean as California north State
Ketchum-3 yr program
West coast university

The last batch is just about graduating their first class lol...

 

[Rouelle]

14 pharmacy schools in 1 state? Wow

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Pfft...average for my class when we were accepted back in aught-three was 3.65. Imbeciles.

 

[PAtoPharm]

It's also important to note that the boom for NPs and PA will definitely not last. There are even more schools pushing out new grads and the jobs and demand will quickly fill up just like pharmacy. As well, even if this troll post is trying to make it the opposite, it's way easier to become a PA and NP then to become a pharmacist.

I also feel clinically pharmacists are most valuable with very complex patients. If you go onto the medical forum they will tell you that pharmacists are at their best when these type of patients come through. PA and NP don't even come close to our knowledge of complex medication regimens and thus will never be able to replace us. Even doctors will admit they don't have this knowledge base. I hate it that we try to compare ourselves to NPs and PA when our expertise is on a completely different ball field.

That is just the thing; even if pharmacists are better trained to treat patients with complex medication issues/regimens, hospitals and doctor's offices will still just hire PAs/NPs instead since they can bill and receive reimbursement from insurance companies and pharmacists can't (at least not for clinical services). At least here in the southeast, hospitals could care less if pharmacists have better training if they can't "earn their keep," so to speak.

Just curious... why do you say that it is way easier to become a PA/NP than to become a pharmacist? Based on comparing the courses I took during my P1 year of pharm school as well as the first couple semesters of AA school, I will agree that AA/PA school is easier just because there is practically no busywork, groupwork, or other forms of fluff that I encountered in the pharmacy curriculum. That is one upside of AA/PA school... the instructors don't have any illusions about their role in the healthcare system and the coursework reflects it (I.e., you don't take any courses you don't actually need) whereas my time in pharmacy school made it clear that the professors were trying to bill pharmacy as something it simply is not.

But for the most part, PA school is much harder to get accepted to than pharmacy school, for now. Most PA programs consider an applicant to be competitive if they have a 3.6+ GPA and healthcare work experience. Pharmacy schools, on the other hand... well, you know the story there.

Of course, NP schools tend to be ridiculously easy to get accepted to. A local public university just started its own online NP program within the last year or two, and they aren't even requiring that applicants have nursing work experience; only a BSN is required. 22-year-olds are graduating from the same university's BSN program in May, applying to start the NP program in August, and not working a day as an RN. Then they get to graduate at age 24 as NPs making anywhere from $85k-$110k to start (locally).

Even more shocking, the average accepted GPA barely approaches a 3.0 and the program only costs $15k. It's amazing to think that pharmacists (even those attending public schools) are taking out $100k or more in loans to attend a program where they'll graduate and make starting salaries that are close to (or more) than what pharmacists start out at, depending on whether you're comparing to retail or hospital pharmacists. It sucks even more when you consider that at many hospitals, NPs will top out at significantly higher salaries than pharmacists.

 

[MrBonita]

I didn't realize I was a troll. Just wanted to get a conversation on the movement of talent from pharmacy to PA. Recently the new grads I see are all willing to take any jobs which makes me worry. When I was applying to pharmacy school the numbers were flipped around, more pharm.D applicants and higher gpa.

 

[UGAZ]

This thread should be started and posted in pre-pharmacy forum where we can educate/inform pre-pharmacy students.

 

[steveysmith54]

I didn't realize I was a troll. Just wanted to get a conversation on the movement of talent from pharmacy to PA. Recently the new grads I see are all willing to take any jobs which makes me worry. When I was applying to pharmacy school the numbers were flipped around, more pharm.D applicants and higher gpa.

I started a thread about Pharm.D. being maybe the easiest doctorate to obtain now. I think, like you, I am a bit in awe, if you were considering pharmacy school a decade ago, you were lucky to get an interview and admission was very hard to come by. I don't think you're a troll, just the topic of PA has been discussed so much here.

 

[BelowTheMean]

Pharmacy has become a total joke. I don't think there is an easier doctorate to earn at this moment and it's only going to continue to be easier with more low quality applicants. Western University is pretty known in the region, i can only imagine what the stats are of the low tier Ca schools. Telling someone you have a PharmD is like telling someone you have an MBA, anyone can get one if they can find the right school.

 

[UGAZ]

Pharmacy has become a total joke. I don't think there is an easier doctorate to earn at this moment and it's only going to continue to be easier with more low quality applicants. Western University is pretty known in the region, i can only imagine what the stats are of the low tier Ca schools. Telling someone you have a PharmD is like telling someone you have an MBA, anyone can get one if they can find the right school.

Garbage in = garbage out. The schools don't care about anything but money. California has 14 pharmacy schools...now. What a joke. When I started pharmacy school, we only have 5 schools. Within 15 years, the number is 3x more. No wonder there is no job.

 

[BelowTheMean]

I have no idea why anyone would want to be a mid-level provider in an inpatient setting. They are literally doing resident work their entire life and repeating what said to them.... With no idea WHY the doctor wants that done.

It would probably be fine in an outpatient setting or ER ...

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Well it beats low level provider in the basement verifying stuff who also has no idea what the doctor wants but only allowed to page Mid levels since doctors don't want to be bothered for such things. People would rather be the middle man than just totally left out.

 

[Gombrich12]

Pharmacy has become a total joke. I don't think there is an easier doctorate to earn at this moment and it's only going to continue to be easier with more low quality applicants. Western University is pretty known in the region, i can only imagine what the stats are of the low tier Ca schools. Telling someone you have a PharmD is like telling someone you have an MBA, anyone can get one if they can find the right school.

I've heard if you drive slowly past some of these new schools you'll end up with a PharmD.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I've heard if you drive slowly past some of these new schools you'll end up with a PharmD.

Drive thru PharmDs...that could be a good idea for the schools.

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[beautifulrobot]

Can't be worse than maintaining my house and cleaning after my pets. Where do I sign up?

Have you ever been in a BART station? Make sure you can stomach the smells and sights before you sign up.

 

[gwarm01]

Have you ever been in a BART station? Make sure you can stomach the smells and sights before you sign up.

While smoking as a teenager did dull my sense of smell, I'd probably miss the comfort of my desk. I'm basically an EMR janitor right now anyway, and I'd rather not just make a lateral move.

 

[AlwaysContrary]

That is just the thing; even if pharmacists are better trained to treat patients with complex medication issues/regimens, hospitals and doctor's offices will still just hire PAs/NPs instead since they can bill and receive reimbursement from insurance companies and pharmacists can't (at least not for clinical services). At least here in the southeast, hospitals could care less if pharmacists have better training if they can't "earn their keep," so to speak.

Just curious... why do you say that it is way easier to become a PA/NP than to become a pharmacist? Based on comparing the courses I took during my P1 year of pharm school as well as the first couple semesters of AA school, I will agree that AA/PA school is easier just because there is practically no busywork, groupwork, or other forms of fluff that I encountered in the pharmacy curriculum. That is one upside of AA/PA school... the instructors don't have any illusions about their role in the healthcare system and the coursework reflects it (I.e., you don't take any courses you don't actually need) whereas my time in pharmacy school made it clear that the professors were trying to bill pharmacy as something it simply is not.

But for the most part, PA school is much harder to get accepted to than pharmacy school, for now. Most PA programs consider an applicant to be competitive if they have a 3.6+ GPA and healthcare work experience. Pharmacy schools, on the other hand... well, you know the story there.

Of course, NP schools tend to be ridiculously easy to get accepted to. A local public university just started its own online NP program within the last year or two, and they aren't even requiring that applicants have nursing work experience; only a BSN is required. 22-year-olds are graduating from the same university's BSN program in May, applying to start the NP program in August, and not working a day as an RN. Then they get to graduate at age 24 as NPs making anywhere from $85k-$110k to start (locally).

Even more shocking, the average accepted GPA barely approaches a 3.0 and the program only costs $15k. It's amazing to think that pharmacists (even those attending public schools) are taking out $100k or more in loans to attend a program where they'll graduate and make starting salaries that are close to (or more) than what pharmacists start out at, depending on whether you're comparing to retail or hospital pharmacists. It sucks even more when you consider that at many hospitals, NPs will top out at significantly higher salaries than pharmacists.

It's easier in the fact that PA and NP schools are a lot shorter than pharmacy school. Therefore it is technically easier to become a PA and NP then a pharmacist. Comparing PA and NP, it's a lot easier to become a NP then it is a PA by what you just described. As for getting into pharmacy school, I agree it's a joke because of the newer schools accepting anyone who applies. I even heard that a school accepted a student that didn't even have all the pre-reqs but I don't remember where I heard that.

Pharmacist's will eventually get provider status. I know people here will probably argue me with that point, but it will happen. Until then, I know the AMA is pushing a new practice model that requires pharmacists and pharmacies to be in doctor offices. As well, there will be a point that PA and NP cannot simply treat a complex patient the same as a pharmacist will be able to. It would be against the patient's best interest to have someone without the education or expertise taking care of the patient. Which is the exact same argument physicians make about PA's and NP's

To hit your other point about NP's topping out above pharmacist's salary, most NP's will never hit that high of pay. There will always be outliers, just like in pharmacy.

 

[gwarm01]

It's easier in the fact that PA and NP schools are a lot shorter than pharmacy school. Therefore it is technically easier to become a PA and NP then a pharmacist. Comparing PA and NP, it's a lot easier to become a NP then it is a PA by what you just described. As for getting into pharmacy school, I agree it's a joke because of the newer schools accepting anyone who applies. I even heard that a school accepted a student that didn't even have all the pre-reqs but I don't remember where I heard that.

Pharmacist's will eventually get provider status. I know people here will probably argue me with that point, but it will happen. Until then, I know the AMA is pushing a new practice model that requires pharmacists and pharmacies to be in doctor offices. As well, there will be a point that PA and NP cannot simply treat a complex patient the same as a pharmacist will be able to. It would be against the patient's best interest to have someone without the education or expertise taking care of the patient. Which is the exact same argument physicians make about PA's and NP's

To hit your other point about NP's topping out above pharmacist's salary, most NP's will never hit that high of pay. There will always be outliers, just like in pharmacy.

Good point. It's laughably easy to get into pharmacy school these days, but the program remains 4 years long. The only realistic hope we have in reducing the number of under qualified practitioners is the NAPLEX. The 2016 NAPLEX statistics showed a massive drop in pass rates across the board. Established schools dropped 10%, while several degree mills saw their pass rates plummet into the 60% range. This was for students admitted early in the age of lowered expectations. What will happen when these 2.0 GPA 15th % PCAT students start graduating? And they most certainly will due to the overly forgiving policies in many schools now. Retake exams, drop an exam from your grade, all tests are multiple-choice.. please. I would have had a full letter grade higher in med chem if I could have dropped that one exam I completely bombed.

edit: I also agree about provider status. It's already happening on a state by state basis. One way or another it will probably happen, but it probably won't be the great savior of pharmacy by any means.