Physician Convicted for Multiple Overdose Cases

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Theseus

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http://www.cbsnews.com/news/painkil...entence-upheld-for-doctor-and-wife-in-kansas/

Excerpt:



Apparently, this guy is a FM DO. This case has been going on since at least 2010.

And there have been numerous criminal cases against physicians, most problems with physicians and the law usually involve them abusing their prescription pen an pad. In not all cases they wind up locked up, in many cases they usually lose their medical license. Another big one is insurance fraud.

The most famous case recently involved an MD who performed chemotherapy on patients that did not have cancer, and he was an MD, so this kind of behavior is not restricted among DOs.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cance...emo-healthy-patients-faces-sentencing-n385161

I ask everyone this, would a case of a physician providing prescription medication to a patient that does not need them constitute a violent offense against the patient? My guess is yes, because medications can do harm to the patient.

The doctor in the chemotherapy case was convicted of medical fraud, not assault, but I think that should have been added to his list of charges as well as attempted murder, chemo medications have some serious side effects and complications. He was convicted of fraud.
 
Prescription prosecutions are now commonplace. You don't have to dig hard to find that they are quite numerous. There is another DO on trial for murder in California. In fairness most pill mills are run by MDs and there are actually more drug-death stories in the news on MDs because there are more MDs. Right now there is an MD in Santa Barbara facing 1,300 years in federal prison....
 
Prescription prosecutions are now commonplace. You don't have to dig hard to find that they are quite numerous. There is another DO on trial for murder in California. In fairness most pill mills are run by MDs and there are actually more drug-death stories in the news on MDs because there are more MDs. Right now there is an MD in Santa Barbara facing 1,300 years in federal prison....

I guess the Oncologist in Michigan got off lightly, he only got 175 years in prison. I wonder why the prosecutor did not consider attempted murder charges or even assault, chemo drugs are not a joke, giving chemo drugs to a healthy person is not only unethical but can put their life in danger.

In the eyes of the law he is not a violent criminal, but in my eyes since he knowingly and willingly harmed people, I think he is just as bad as someone who points a gun at a person's head.
 
is the moral of these stories to always get a second opinion? but i guess in a lot of cases, a lot of patients can't afford to see another doc
 
is the moral of these stories to always get a second opinion? but i guess in a lot of cases, a lot of patients can't afford to see another doc

The Michigan doctor was a multi millionaire running several upscale cancer clinics, his patients were upper middle class.
 
Seth Joo said:
I guess the Oncologist in Michigan got off lightly, he only got 175 years in prison. I wonder why the prosecutor did not consider attempted murder charges or even assault, chemo drugs are not a joke, giving chemo drugs to a healthy person is not only unethical but can put their life in danger.

In the eyes of the law he is not a violent criminal, but in my eyes since he knowingly and willingly harmed people, I think he is just as bad as someone who points a gun at a person's head.


All drugs are poisons so prescribing drugs the patients do not need or risk > benefit, the prescriber is not only committing prescription fraud, it's also a serious violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
 
All drugs are poisons so prescribing drugs the patients do not need or risk > benefit, the prescriber is not only committing prescription fraud, it's also a serious violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

Idk if calling all drugs poison is an astute observation or comment. Most aren't inherently damaging to the body in any way or form.
 
Idk if calling all drugs poison is an astute observation or comment. Most aren't inherently damaging to the body in any way or form.


Not inherently damaging to the body but still damaging anyway, its just the stronger bodies don't show any observable adverse effects but they're there. The only drug that's not a poison is placebo.

Edit: trust your friendly neighborhood pharmacist lol
 
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Idk if calling all drugs poison is an astute observation or comment. Most aren't inherently damaging to the body in any way or form.

If you are giving chemo drugs to healthy people to me you are poisoning them, that doctor should have gotten a lethal injection, apparently when he was given his sentence he was crying, but what about the suffering he put other people through? And he made millions of dollars in the process. In many ways this guy is lower than people who have committed first degree homicide.
 
Not inherently damaging to the body but still damaging anyway, its just the stronger bodies don't show any observable adverse effects but they're there. The only drug that's not a poison is placebo.

Edit: trust your friendly neighborhood pharmacist lol
You should be a chiropractor.
 
You should be a chiropractor.
Listen to what he's saying before dismissing him flippantly. He's saying that drugs are poison, but he's not denying the fact that in some cases they are necessary for a patient's well-being. Nevertheless, because they are poison and have unintended side effects, it's better to limit drugs if possible.

Wouldn't you agree that it's impossible to have a 100% specific drug?
 
Listen to what he's saying before dismissing him flippantly. He's saying that drugs are poison, but he's not denying the fact that in some cases they are necessary for a patient's well-being. Nevertheless, because they are poison and have unintended side effects, it's better to limit drugs if possible.

Wouldn't you agree that it's impossible to have a 100% specific drug?
He's saying all drugs are poison, which is only correct in the sense that literally everything is poison. To state that people only aren't showing symptoms of a poison because of the strength of their body is quite literally stupid to anyone that understands pharmacology- there's a lot of drugs that are actually just analogues of things you already have in your body, to say that that is a poison would be to say that your boy is making poison all the damn time. Too much oxygen is poison, too much air is poison, too much food is poison, literally everything is poison people! Might as well just kill yourselves now, because the floor may as well be made of lava with all the poison all over the place!
 
If you are giving chemo drugs to healthy people to me you are poisoning them, that doctor should have gotten a lethal injection, apparently when he was given his sentence he was crying, but what about the suffering he put other people through? And he made millions of dollars in the process. In many ways this guy is lower than people who have committed first degree homicide.
If you are giving chemo drugs to healthy people to me you are poisoning them, that doctor should have gotten a lethal injection, apparently when he was given his sentence he was crying, but what about the suffering he put other people through? And he made millions of dollars in the process. In many ways this guy is lower than people who have committed first degree homicide.
Mark this down as literally the only time I've ever agreed with you about anything.
 
If you are giving chemo drugs to healthy people to me you are poisoning them, that doctor should have gotten a lethal injection, apparently when he was given his sentence he was crying, but what about the suffering he put other people through? And he made millions of dollars in the process. In many ways this guy is lower than people who have committed first degree homicide.

He's claiming that all drugs are poison. I find that an over estimation as plenty of drugs are about as toxic as a banana.

He's a monster no doubt.
 
He's saying all drugs are poison, which is only correct in the sense that literally everything is poison. To state that people only aren't showing symptoms of a poison because of the strength of their body is quite literally stupid to anyone that understands pharmacology- there's a lot of drugs that are actually just analogues of things you already have in your body, to say that that is a poison would be to say that your boy is making poison all the damn time. Too much oxygen is poison, too much air is poison, too much food is poison, literally everything is poison people! Might as well just kill yourselves now, because the floor may as well be made of lava with all the poison all over the place!


Admittedly it's very A.T. Still. I mean, I can agree lightly if only because it's almost borderline a platitude. I mean, sure if your liver is dying then maybe that's a sign that your body probably won't be able to deal with getting rid of drugs...
 
Admittedly it's very A.T. Still. I mean, I can agree lightly if only because it's almost borderline a platitude. I mean, sure if your liver is dying then maybe that's a sign that your body probably won't be able to deal with getting rid of drugs...
Any reasonable person knows that the dose makes the poison. Vitamin A is good for you. Too much vitamin A will literally kill you. Water is good for you. Drink a gallon at once and it will kill you. Etc, etc...
 
Any reasonable person knows that the dose makes the poison. Vitamin A is good for you. Too much vitamin A will literally kill you. Water is good for you. Drink a gallon at once and it will kill you. Etc, etc...

Reason is lacking today if you haven't noticed. #Foodbabeway; #sayno2gmo, #collidalsilverblueisgood
 
And there have been numerous criminal cases against physicians, most problems with physicians and the law usually involve them abusing their prescription pen an pad. In not all cases they wind up locked up, in many cases they usually lose their medical license. Another big one is insurance fraud.

The most famous case recently involved an MD who performed chemotherapy on patients that did not have cancer, and he was an MD, so this kind of behavior is not restricted among DOs.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cance...emo-healthy-patients-faces-sentencing-n385161

I ask everyone this, would a case of a physician providing prescription medication to a patient that does not need them constitute a violent offense against the patient? My guess is yes, because medications can do harm to the patient.

The doctor in the chemotherapy case was convicted of medical fraud, not assault, but I think that should have been added to his list of charges as well as attempted murder, chemo medications have some serious side effects and complications. He was convicted of fraud.

Yes, why indeed couldn't this be assault? And it would be great if they could include battery. The other needs for meeting battery could be met, save the consent obtained. This consent, however, was obtained through fraud, so now we are back to fraud. The fraud, however, should negate the necessity of consent to meet the requirement of battery, b/c it was obtained under false pretenses. But ehhh, the law!
 
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The story doesn't seem to highlight the facts very well. Was he essentially prescribing to people who were free of symptoms? According to the story, the clinic dealt with chronic pain, so I don't know why voluminous prescriptions would be anything out of the ordinary. Or was the problem that he continued prescribing despite clear signs of addiction? And why is the wife involved? Is she a doc as well?

As far as I understand, what these people seemed to be doing was relatively status quo. Tons of docs are loose on the rx. I'm just trying to understand why this specific case. Is it specifically because of the ODs? Is someone trying to achieve political recognition out of this case? More details would be helpful.
 
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Yes, why indeed couldn't this be assault? And it would be great if they could include battery. The other needs for meeting battery could be met, save the consent obtained. This consent, however, was obtained through fraud, so now we are back to fraud. The fraud, however, should negate the necessity of consent to meet the requirement of battery, b/c it was obtained under false pretenses. But ehhh, the law!

His 175 year prison sentence was for fraud, he was convicted on multiple charges, apparently he was crying during his sentencing. However he was not crying about his lavish lifestyle, the doctor earned millions of dollars fraudulently providing chemotherapy medication to healthy patients. Absolutely despicable. In the eyes of the judge who declared him guilty he is a white collar criminal not a violent thug, but in my opinion I find people like this to be just as bad as bank robbers and muggers.
 
His 175 year prison sentence was for fraud, he was convicted on multiple charges, apparently he was crying during his sentencing. However he was not crying about his lavish lifestyle, the doctor earned millions of dollars fraudulently providing chemotherapy medication to healthy patients. Absolutely despicable. In the eyes of the judge who declared him guilty he is a white collar criminal not a violent thug, but in my opinion I find people like this to be just as bad as bank robbers and muggers.

Absolutely agree. His actions were indeed violent, heinous, and no doubt injurious to patients and their families. Furthermore, it's wrong that such behaviors are brushed away as mere acts of fraud. He must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law possible--even if laborious and time-consuming, since his actions stand as a severe danger to public health. Regardless of the sentence term, fraud is insufficient. Hopefully there will be civil actions pending as well.
 
The story doesn't seem to highlight the facts very well. Was he essentially prescribing to people who were free of symptoms? According to the story, the clinic dealt with chronic pain, so I don't know why voluminous prescriptions would be anything out of the ordinary. Or was the problem that he continued prescribing despite clear signs of addiction? And why is the wife involved? Is she a doc as well?

As far as I understand, what these people seemed to be doing was relatively status quo. Tons of docs are loose on the rx. I'm just trying to understand why this specific case. Is it specifically because of the ODs? Is someone trying to achieve political recognition out of this case? More details would be helpful.

I think this guy went above and beyond the calling of the average pill pushing physician with addicts lined up from dusk to dawn.
 
Absolutely agree. His actions were indeed violent, heinous, and no doubt injurious to patients and their families. Furthermore, it's wrong that such behaviors are brushed away as mere acts of fraud. He must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law possible--even if laborious and time-consuming, since his actions stand as a severe danger to public health. Regardless of the sentence term, fraud is insufficient. Hopefully there will be civil actions pending as well.

If the guy already has 175 years....why waste the tax dollars on additional prosecution?
 
I think this guy went above and beyond the calling of the average pill pushing physician with addicts lined up from dusk to dawn.

So do a lot of EDs, and often times they oblige. I just wish there were more specifics here. Doc prescribes rx for chronic pain. Patient ODs. Hence doc should do 30yrs? I'm just wondering about all the in between stuff this story is leaving out. Was the doc stringing addicts along or something? I mean, and even so, this really, from what I've observed, is not out of the norm for a pain clinic. This is how docs deal with chronic pain. They do operations that may or may not change anything or they prescribe. Where is the angle here for prosecution? What did they do that hasn't already been historically sanctioned within this business? I get quite a lot of people have died, but I'm sure in a long career for a physician he/she witnesses many who die under his/her care. And this particular physician was seeing >=100 pts/day. In a few years he'd see 100k+ patients! And yet it's weird he has higher numbers of complications? He's seeing way more than the average PCP.

I'm just saying giving someone 30 years is a serious thing, and it seems like there has been very minimal analysis, if any, going on in this thread.
 
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Absolutely agree. His actions were indeed violent, heinous, and no doubt injurious to patients and their families. Furthermore, it's wrong that such behaviors are brushed away as mere acts of fraud. He must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law possible--even if laborious and time-consuming, since his actions stand as a severe danger to public health. Regardless of the sentence term, fraud is insufficient. Hopefully there will be civil actions pending as well.

I guess the judge realized since he already got a sentence of 175 years, and I believe the doctor is around 50 or a little older, this doctor is going to spend the rest of his life in prison.

This article states he was sentenced to 45 years and not 175 years, he apparently gave medication to 550 people.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...015/07/10/fata-sentence-handed-down/29952245/
 
For the Fata thing: Why in the heck are these people not getting 2nd and 3rd opinions on something so serious as a potentially fatal disease? I'm surprised the doc didn't see someone else would call him on his ****, and I'm surprised it was allowed to go on so long by other docs who probably were notified of his treatment plans by patients who actually sought second opinions.

".....45 years is a poor deterrent to other bad doctors..." Oh sure. 45 years in a federal prison? Any doc could do that standing on his head.
 
For the Fata thing: Why in the heck are these people not getting 2nd and 3rd opinions on something so serious as a potentially fatal disease? I'm surprised the doc didn't see someone else would call him on his ****, and I'm surprised it was allowed to go on so long by other docs who probably were notified of his treatment plans by patients who actually sought second opinions.

He was widely considered to be among the best physicians in his field, that is why he got away with what he did for so long, there have been other serious cases of medical fraud that have made the news.
 
He was widely considered to be among the best physicians in his field, that is why he got away with what he did for so long, there have been other serious cases of medical fraud that have made the news.

No dude it even says, "...when they went to different doctors, they learned he didn't even need radiation," when speaking of one of the patients. Apparently they waited to actually seek a second opinion before, as they say, deciding to "poison" their family member, and before he decided it was alright to "poison" himself. Fata's obviously a greedy dick that would happily profit off of your misery, but the harm he's caused is minimal compared to the rest of the establishment. The fact people are totally entrusting every detail of their life to healthcare professionals is beyond idiotic, and displays an unacceptable lack of common sense. I knew by the time I was 12 that what these experts decided to do with me was ~90% opinionated, and often times they never solved the problem because either they could not (and would lie about that fact in order to continue expensive treatments) or because they could financially benefit from continuing to string you along. Point is, if the sole goal is profit, it makes perfect economic sense, given the way our society is constructed, to do things like Fata has done if it is guaranteed you can get away with it. Fata's problem is he was a complete *****, performed a financially advantageous action that had extremely high personal liability, and performed these idiotic actions extremely openly such that it was merely a matter of time for him. The fact it was never caught for so long is embarrassing, quite frankly, and the fact an individual who was intelligent enough to attend and graduate medical school is as embarrassing and even more astounding. I suppose it goes to show one can be quite intelligent and yet have a complete lack of anything even remotely related to common sense.

But the point I'm trying to make is there are people like this all over, with the same mindset, albeit applying that mindset in a different context, but in the same vein as Fata.

This is all of course to say that if the goal of health care professionals is not solely patient health, it is not reasonable to expect health care professionals to act solely for the sake of patient health.
 
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No dude it even says, "...when they went to different doctors, they learned he didn't even need radiation," when speaking of one of the patients. Apparently they waited to actually seek a second opinion before, as they say, deciding to "poison" their family member, and before he decided it was alright to "poison" himself. Fata's obviously a greedy dick that would happily profit off of your misery, but the harm he's caused is minimal compared to the rest of the establishment. The fact people are totally entrusting every detail of their life to healthcare professionals is beyond idiotic, and displays an unacceptable lack of common sense. I knew by the time I was 12 that what these experts decided to do with me was ~90% opinionated, and often times they never solved the problem because either they could not (and would lie about that fact in order to continue expensive treatments) or because they could financially benefit from continuing to string you along. Point is, if the sole goal is profit, it makes perfect economic sense, given the way our society is constructed, to do things like Fata has done if it is guaranteed you can get away with it. Fata's problem is he was a complete *****, performed a financially advantageous action that had extremely high personal liability, and performed these idiotic actions extremely openly such that it was merely a matter of time for him. The fact it was never caught for so long is embarrassing, quite frankly, and the fact an individual who was intelligent enough to attend and graduate medical school is as embarrassing and even more astounding. I suppose it goes to show one can be quite intelligent and yet have a complete lack of anything even remotely related to common sense.

But the point I'm trying to make is there are people like this all over, with the same mindset, albeit applying that mindset in a different context, but in the same vein as Fata.

This is all of course to say that if the goal of health care professionals is not solely patient health, it is not reasonable to expect health care professionals to act solely for the sake of patient health.

He did it to fund his lifestyle, Fata earned millions of dollars, there was similar case of a Florida physician who lead a similar type of fraud and was even more egregious in his lifestyle.
 
He did it to fund his lifestyle, Fata earned millions of dollars, there was similar case of a Florida physician who lead a similar type of fraud and was even more egregious in his lifestyle.

Sure, as do many others. Frankly, I think there is a ton of mini-fraud that goes on, on a daily basis, in medicine. Docs just do their best, and sometimes that's insufficient, or they purposefully do something wrong (but not wrong wrong, just wrong but semi-reasonable even though they know it's not the very best treatment) in order to profit.

I'm still wondering about the OP though. Apparently no one wants to clear up what the heck really happened and where the lines really are. I'm guessing despite the amount of pain the patient is in there's a certain point you just stop prescribing and....what, have them go see a psych for addiction? But what if the pain is entirely somatic? What then? You either deny them treatment for their ailment (mal) or you give them the widely accepted treatment (also apparently considered mal). What am I misunderstanding here?
 
Sure, as do many others. Frankly, I think there is a ton of mini-fraud that goes on, on a daily basis, in medicine. Docs just do their best, and sometimes that's insufficient, or they purposefully do something wrong (but not wrong wrong, just wrong but semi-reasonable even though they know it's not the very best treatment) in order to profit.

I'm still wondering about the OP though. Apparently no one wants to clear up what the heck really happened and where the lines really are. I'm guessing despite the amount of pain the patient is in there's a certain point you just stop prescribing and....what, have them go see a psych for addiction? But what if the pain is entirely somatic? What then? You either deny them treatment for their ailment (mal) or you give them the widely accepted treatment (also apparently considered mal). What am I misunderstanding here?

There was another doctor in Florida who was friends with US Senator. White collar criminal investigations are often longer processes than say convicting a robber or a mugger.

This was a case of a US Senator aiding a Florida physician with defrauding Medicare:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/06/politics/robert-menendez-criminal-corruption-charges-planned/

I am shocked that someone who has been indicted for a Federal crime is still keeping his seat in the Senate.
 
I am shocked that someone who has been indicted for a Federal crime is still keeping his seat in the Senate.

As long as he's not convicted, there's no reason to jump to conclusions. Going off media representations of the facts is a hazardous M.O., Seth.
 
As long as he's not convicted, there's no reason to jump to conclusions. Going off media representations of the facts is a hazardous M.O., Seth.

Most people who receive a criminal indictment, and one from the Feds, usually wind up behind bars, they do not go about their daily lives as usual. The DOJ apparently indicted him on "corruption" charges which could apply to a good amount of the Senate and Congress. He has claimed that he is being targeted by Eric Holder because of certain positions he has held in opposition to the President.
 
If the guy already has 175 years....why waste the tax dollars on additional prosecution?


Reason: Point of principle and to set a clear reminder to all of standards and sound public policy.
 
For the Fata thing: Why in the heck are these people not getting 2nd and 3rd opinions on something so serious as a potentially fatal disease? I'm surprised the doc didn't see someone else would call him on his ****, and I'm surprised it was allowed to go on so long by other docs who probably were notified of his treatment plans by patients who actually sought second opinions.

".....45 years is a poor deterrent to other bad doctors..." Oh sure. 45 years in a federal prison? Any doc could do that standing on his head.


Honestly, I have wondered at times about re-checks on pathology reports. I know of a person that recently had a needle biopsy, and they charged $12,000 for it. When the person had patho and slides sent to a specializing facility, of course their patho people reviewed them. After the surgery for tissue removal, which, with anesthesia included, along with surgery and recovery, amazingly, those costs were not relatively much higher than the original needle biopsy. Frankly, I was astounded by the cost of the original needle biopsy. The tissue review after surgery was not as costly as the original biopsy. The cost factors here seem off to me. There needs to be more digging about theses procedural costs, b/c some of them make no sense--but I digress.

At any rate, people are trusting that those performing these tests/evaluations are thorough and accurate. They are also trusting in the soundness of the charges--and they are worried about the variations in costs from one facility to another--why the capriciousness giving the current coding system and such? Sadly, I should not be surprised to find out there may well be cases where things were found that were not so accurate. It's bad when things are missed, but it's also terrible when things are not confirmed--when they are not the horrors they were said to be. Unless you are looking at the slides, and you know full well what you are viewing, you are forced to trust. And when people hear the word cancer, they are seized by shock and fright. It's very hard for them to fully process--especially initially. All they want is for it to be gone.

The story Seth shares is particularly troubling to me. People put ALL their TRUST in medicine and physicians. To take advantage of this in such a way when patients and families are most vulnerable is, in my view, on the sociopathic side of things.

My overall point here is emphasizing medicine's and physicians' impact on individuals and the collective--society as a whole. The dedication must be wholly on the patient first; otherwise they are worse than snake-oil salesman--and are merely well-educated creatures of prey.

This really emphasizes the greed-factor that can be seen in healthcare. It's innately sick within itself. Medicine needs to take some steps back and consider where they must influence its profession on the whole--where and how it must stand up and say, "Physician, heal thyself." Society and the public must be a part of this too. Who is checking? Where are the systems of checks and balances, and why doesn't that matter so much anymore. And as this is, it is no wonder why some of us can't stand hard and fast against tort reform. If the legal system is a means by which to keep those in check that are not able to do so b/c of their own lack of ethics, than what other recourse is left to individuals and society?

This case in particular reflects something very insidious and grave in medicine and healthcare. That this could so easily have affected so many people is beyond disturbing.
 
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No dude it even says, "...when they went to different doctors, they learned he didn't even need radiation," when speaking of one of the patients. Apparently they waited to actually seek a second opinion before, as they say, deciding to "poison" their family member, and before he decided it was alright to "poison" himself. Fata's obviously a greedy dick that would happily profit off of your misery, but the harm he's caused is minimal compared to the rest of the establishment. The fact people are totally entrusting every detail of their life to healthcare professionals is beyond idiotic, and displays an unacceptable lack of common sense. I knew by the time I was 12 that what these experts decided to do with me was ~90% opinionated, and often times they never solved the problem because either they could not (and would lie about that fact in order to continue expensive treatments) or because they could financially benefit from continuing to string you along. Point is, if the sole goal is profit, it makes perfect economic sense, given the way our society is constructed, to do things like Fata has done if it is guaranteed you can get away with it. Fata's problem is he was a complete *****, performed a financially advantageous action that had extremely high personal liability, and performed these idiotic actions extremely openly such that it was merely a matter of time for him. The fact it was never caught for so long is embarrassing, quite frankly, and the fact an individual who was intelligent enough to attend and graduate medical school is as embarrassing and even more astounding. I suppose it goes to show one can be quite intelligent and yet have a complete lack of anything even remotely related to common sense.

But the point I'm trying to make is there are people like this all over, with the same mindset, albeit applying that mindset in a different context, but in the same vein as Fata.

This is all of course to say that if the goal of health care professionals is not solely patient health, it is not reasonable to expect health care professionals to act solely for the sake of patient health.


But indeed people do. And again, how should they know, even w/ second opinions, what the accuracy of a report is? How should the patient that had a organ removed based on slides sent to another place that specializes in oncology know for sure that the specializing hospital is now seeing another opportunity to cut and charge? I am not saying to be paranoid. I am saying who is checking the checkers? Invariable at some point, people MUST TRUST. And that is the very crux of the matter--and it is a gravely serious one in medicine and healthcare. It's dangerous to miss something that shouldn't be missed; but it it's even beyond corrupt to "create" something that is not there--or that is something more on the benign side of things. Regardless, people end up having to trust, and sadly, it becomes an issue when profit is a part of the picture. I personally believe that most for-profit and non-profit hospitals go out of their way to stick to standards and be ethical in how they function--as I also believe this for the greater percentage of physicians. But patients have to be a part of ethics committees and healthcare organizations; b/c there MUST be systems of checks and balances. Is all of medicine and healthcare to become like Sweeney Todd? Seems far fetched but really is it? For those looking in from the outside, they are scared for their lives and their family members' lives. How can a layperson, every with a second opinion be sure of what is going on with them? As I said in my example, if the hospital of second opinion is one that makes profit off of treating cancer in particular, and there is no third, separate opinion, what is in place to stop the second from running with the diagnosis and continuing on to treatment? People have to trust. This is indeed part of what makes being a physician much like the clergy. People can only know so much, and no one can see everything perfectly, even with the best resources and education. And then there are those that seem to care very little for those within their charge or care. The inherent trust-factor in medicine can never be underemphasized. Regardless of education and it's cost and the years of turmoil and jumping through hoops, this gives no one the right to practice in a careless, unethical, even sociopathic like way--for profit or anything else.

Every decent physician in the country should be absolutely irate over this kind of thing.
 
Reason: Point of principle and to set a clear reminder to all of standards and sound public policy.

So if we give a person lethal injection for a heinous crime, do we then bring in the dead body for additional prosecution and a second death penalty sentence to prove a point? This would simply be a waste of time and money. Practically speaking, all you're doing is sinking more societal resources into someone that fundamentally harmed society. It does not make sense.

Honestly, I have wondered at times about re-checks on pathology reports. I know of a person that recently had a needle biopsy, and they charged $12,000 for it. When the person had patho and slides sent to a specializing facility, of course their patho people reviewed them. After the surgery for tissue removal, which, with anesthesia included, along with surgery and recovery, amazingly, those costs were not relatively much higher than the original needle biopsy. Frankly, I was astounded by the cost of the original needle biopsy. The tissue review after surgery was not as costly as the original biopsy. The cost factors here seem off to me. There needs to be more digging about theses procedural costs, b/c some of them make no sense--but I digress.

Sure. It seems like there is no one actually regulating the set price of particular health care costs at private or even public institutions. It's simply too easy to dunk your hand into the huge pot of honey the government lays out for you at taxpayer expense. Why wouldn't you have a 100,000%+ profit margin if it was perfectly legal to do so?

At any rate, people are trusting that those performing these tests/evaluations are thorough and accurate. They are also trusting in the soundness of the charges--and they are worried about the variations in costs from one facility to another--why the capriciousness giving the current coding system and such? Sadly, I should not be surprised to find out there may well be cases where things were found that were not so accurate. It's bad when things are missed, but it's also terrible when things are not confirmed--when they are not the horrors they were said to be. Unless you are looking at the slides, and you know full well what you are viewing, you are forced to trust. And when people hear the word cancer, they are seized by shock and fright. It's very hard for them to fully process--especially initially. All they want is for it to be gone.

Then the healthcare provider steps in to provide guidance. If he's not telling them to get a second opinion (which I see no reason for him not to do unless he's in PP), then that's got to be mal. Mistakes are always possible, as you've noted, and that's got to be recognized by any thinking person. And apparently here, we are assuming the patient is unable to think (perhaps due to the shock, sure) or use common sense, and therefore the burden rests with provider to ensure the patient carries out the proper precautions to absolutely minimize any and all error.

The story Seth shares is particularly troubling to me. People put ALL their TRUST in medicine and physicians. To take advantage of this in such a way when patients and families are most vulnerable is, in my view, on the sociopathic side of things.

You are absolutely right. Apt entrepreneurs must at times act as sociopaths/psychopaths in order to achieve the best economic results. Every pressure from our socially-constructed economy pushes them in this direction. But Fata's problem was he did not consider the legality of what he was doing. According to the economic rules of our society, it is perfectly acceptable to disregard the lives of others and potentially cause harm, as long as what you are doing is considered to be legal, otherwise the liability may far outweigh the potential for profit. So in essence, Fata was certainly a sociopath/psychopath, but in a way that was economically ineffectual -- he is therefore a failure on all fronts, economically and humanistically. Quite a caricature of a ridiculous person.

My overall point here is emphasizing medicine's and physicians' impact on individuals and the collective--society as a whole. The dedication must be wholly on the patient first; otherwise they are worse than snake-oil salesman--and are merely well-educated creatures of prey.

This should be obvious enough to everyone, but as you said yourself! Patients apparently lack common sense and the ability to think properly, and isn't everyone in society other than the currently practicing physicians considered to be patients? And there you have the reason for this phenomenon.

This really emphasizes the greed-factor that can be seen in healthcare. It's innately sick within itself.

It's encouraged via numerous media of economic socialization.

Medicine needs to take some steps back and consider where they must influence its profession on the whole--where and how it must stand up and say, "Physician, heal thyself." Society and the public must be a part of this too. Who is checking? Where are the systems of checks and balances, and why doesn't that matter so much anymore. And as this is, it is no wonder why some of us can't stand hard and fast against tort reform. If the legal system is a means by which to keep those in check that are not able to do so b/c of their own lack of ethics, than what other recourse is left to individuals and society?

It seems like the only people truly capable of checking on physicians of a certain specialty are other physicians of that specialty. You would have to set up a regulating body within each specialty, made up of highly skilled and trusted physicians within that specialty, which lobbies the federal government for the power to review and revise the diagnoses and treatments of every physician in the country that practices said specialty. It also may have to have an investigative unit to cover diagnoses and treatments that may be considered not only unethical but seriously harmful to the patients of any physician in question. Or something to that effect. However, this kind of regulation could cause all sorts of kinks in the current medical work flow, and therefore may do more harm than good.

This case in particular reflects something very insidious and grave in medicine and healthcare. That this could so easily have affected so many people is beyond disturbing.

I don't know. I feel like to ignore this side of humanity (and it really is just one of many sides, not the only side of any human by any means), again, is to exercise a complete lack of common sense or general experience with human beings. The question is then how we can deter this side from exercising the "predation" you mentioned. Apparently no one has figured that out yet.
 
But indeed people do. And again, how should they know, even w/ second opinions, what the accuracy of a report is? How should the patient that had a organ removed based on slides sent to another place that specializes in oncology know for sure that the specializing hospital is now seeing another opportunity to cut and charge? I am not saying to be paranoid. I am saying who is checking the checkers?

This is unending. There has to be an n=x number of checkers. What you decide that x to be is, quite frankly, going to be arbitrary. The idea, though, would be that it's high enough to minimize errors as much as possible without being excessively wasteful of resources. At a certain point, one human life can only demand so much attention when there are so many other sufferers to get to.

Invariable at some point, people MUST TRUST. And that is the very crux of the matter--and it is a gravely serious one in medicine and healthcare. It's dangerous to miss something that shouldn't be missed; but it it's even beyond corrupt to "create" something that is not there--or that is something more on the benign side of things. Regardless, people end up having to trust, and sadly, it becomes an issue when profit is a part of the picture.

Precisely. So inherently, as things stand, trusting is ridiculous. You don't have to trust, however, to follow a treatment plan. You could be distrustful, and yet still follow it, knowing full well that there is some chance that it is the wrong course of action. Personally, I go into any physician's office with this mindset. I'm saying, based on the system we have, we've got to understand it's possible a fellow human being could work against us for the profit that he's promised if he does so. Of course, this is not at all only limited to medicine.

I personally believe that most for-profit and non-profit hospitals go out of their way to stick to standards and be ethical in how they function--as I also believe this for the greater percentage of physicians. But patients have to be a part of ethics committees and healthcare organizations; b/c there MUST be systems of checks and balances.

Apparently no one with the power to effect change has realized that.

Regardless of education and it's cost and the years of turmoil and jumping through hoops, this gives no one the right to practice in a careless, unethical, even sociopathic like way--for profit or anything else

You're correct. I don't like talking about rights, but there are definitely economic motivators that could drive a physician to these sort of careless actions. Or it could be simple convenience, or just simple ignorance (perhaps he wasn't trained well on certain pathology, yet still acts as an expert because he is licensed as a specialist in the specialty that has domain over that given pathology). Or, least likely, it is simple sadism, albeit an extremely elaborate form of sadism, i.e. masquerading as a healer when truly acting in order to harm others as much as possible. Plus there's probably better, less regulated and open ways for a sadist to go about his bidding. So I don't think sadists would be attracted to this sort of work, though I think we must admit it is certainly possible.

Every decent physician in the country should be absolutely irate over this kind of thing.

It's troubling, definitely, but this kind of thing has obviously been going on a while. I just wonder if it's actually seen as a large enough issue to merit any kind of political action. So far, the answer seems to be no.
 
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