Physician LOR- important?

[Becky'sHair]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I just saw a post below talk about how a physician LOR isn't important at all unless you're looking for DO. I'm interested in rural medicine, and have close to 1000 hours shadowing my physician and going along with his team. I know he could write an amazing letter, since I such a long time shadowing him. Should I not include it if it looks bad ?

 

[ndafife]

Why would you think it looks bad?

The point on Physician LOR's is that the physicians generally don't have a ton to say about you - "X did a good job shadowing by staying out of my way and asking good questions and appeared interested in medicine." If you spent 1000 hours with someone and have a big relationship developed with them, obviously they are going to be able to contribute far more than that.

 

[gyngyn]

I have seen very few "physician" LOE's that helped an application. That said, A strong letter from a PI who happens to be physician is fine.
Most of these letters sound exactly the same and tell us a lot more about the letter writer that the applicant. A compounding issue is the fact that the connections to get face time with a physician predispose the letter writer toward a favorable recommendation without regard to the applicant's merit.

 

[Becky'sHair]

I have seen very few "physician" LOE's that helped an application. That said, A strong letter from a PI who happens to be physician is fine.
Most of these letters sound exactly the same and tell us a lot more about the letter writer that the applicant. A compounding issue is the fact that the connections to get face time with a physician predispose the letter writer toward a favorable recommendation without regard to the applicant's merit.

This conflicts with advice from my local med school. They look favorably upon physician letters of rec. But then I saw the thread below and got confused lol So much conflicting info.

 

[gyngyn]

This conflicts with advice from my local med school. They look favorably upon physician letters of rec. But then I saw the thread below and got confused lol So much conflicting info.

Utah, Chicago Med and the AZ schools request "clinical" letters, though they generally need not be from a physician (at least for AZ). Undergraduate schools like to mandate physician letters to guarantee that their students have acquired clinical exposure, not because the letters are valuable in and of themselves. If your particular state school wants a physician letter, go for it. It is unlikely to improve the application elsewhere, though.

If your school requests a clinical letter could you PM me so that I can add the school to my list? A link to the website would also help!

 

[Becky'sHair]

Utah, Chicago Med and the AZ schools request "clinical" letters, though they generally need not be from a physician (at least for AZ). Undergraduate schools like to mandate physician letters to guarantee that their students have acquired clinical exposure, not because the letters are valuable in and of themselves. If your particular state school wants a physician letter, go for it. It is unlikely to improve the application elsewhere, though.

If your school requests a clinical letter could you PM me so that I can add the school to my list? A link to the website would also help!

The way I look at it is that professor letters are there to help the adcoms with academic ability. But medicine is so much more than academics. Having a letter from someone who has observed and aided in your clinical experience imo is just as equal. Med schools have plethora of applicants that have excellent academic records, but do they all have good bedside manner, patient interaction, and clinical experience? That's what my med school said about why they like physician letters. It doesn't say on its' website- just what members of an admission committee said during an info meeting at my school thats linked to the med school. Obviously different med schools are different, but a lot like that physician letter.

 

[gyngyn]

Obviously different med schools are different, but a lot like that physician letter.

Do schools do love a DO letter.

 

[Becky'sHair]

Do schools do love a DO letter.

I"m sure they do! I'm talking about an MD school though (although both MD and DO schools in general!)

 

[gyngyn]

I"m sure they do! I'm talking about an MD school though (although both MD and DO schools in general!)

It is the very nature of physician letters that gets them trivialized at MD schools. They are usually shadowing letters (entirely useless). It has also been observed that we (physicians) are congenitally incapable of anything but a glowing letter for anyone! It only takes a couple of interviews of such strongly endorsed (yet very weak) candidates before we learn to disregard them. Couple this with the fact that the connections that often make shadowing possible is a factor that favors the well-off, something that we actively try to minimize.

 

[Becky'sHair]

It is the very nature of physician letters that gets them trivialized at MD schools. They are usually shadowing letters (entirely useless). It has also been observed that we (physicians) are congenitally incapable of anything but a glowing letter for anyone! It only takes a couple of interviews of such strongly endorsed (yet very weak) candidates before we learn to disregard them. Couple this with the fact that the connections that often make shadowing possible is a factor that favors the well-off, something that we actively try to minimalize.

Then why do some schools actively request physician letters, and not just to confirm the student shadowed? I respect your opinion, but different adcoms have different views on this matter I believe.

 

[gyngyn]

Then why do some schools actively request physician letters, and not just to confirm the student shadowed? I respect your opinion, but different adcoms have different views on this matter I believe.

Perhaps for the same reason that undergrad pre-health committees do. A quick way to make sure that shadowing occurred.
DO schools use a DO letter to help screen for those actually interested in their brand of medicine, I believe.

 

[Becky'sHair]

Perhaps for the same reason that undergrad pre-health committees do. A quick way to make sure that shadowing occurred.
DO schools use a DO letter to help screen for those actually interested in their brand of medicine, I believe.

I mean besides that reason. Many schools want to see the qualities I stated above. Maybe your adcom is not very receptive to physician letters, but it doesn't mean others are. Thank you for your advice though!

 

[gyngyn]

I mean besides that reason. Many schools want to see the qualities I stated above. Maybe your adcom is not very receptive to physician letters, but it doesn't mean others are. Thank you for your advice though!

We have found that someone who has a broad exposure to many applicants will have more opportunity to objectively and comparatively evaluate the personal qualities we are looking for: https://www.aamc.org/download/332578/data/lettersguidelinesbrochure.pdf

Everyone loves their shadow.

 

[Becky'sHair]

We have found that someone who has a broad exposure to many applicants will have more opportunity to objectively and comparatively evaluate the personal qualities we are looking for: https://www.aamc.org/download/332578/data/lettersguidelinesbrochure.pdf

Everyone loves their shadow.

Again, every adcom is different. You can speak for your own school, because that's who you represent. My physician over the years has had hundreds of students shadow him at one point or another. So i'm pretty sure he can be objective, even if you don't think so.

 

[ndafife]

Again, every adcom is different. You can speak for your own school, because that's who you represent. My physician over the years has had hundreds of students shadow him at one point or another. So i'm pretty sure he can be objective, even if you don't think so.

Your anecdotal Physician who is objective has his letter diminished by the majority of other physician letters that are not.

But again, 1000 hours with someone should yield a deep and meaningful assessment of your strengths as an applicant

 

[Becky'sHair]

Your anecdotal Physician who is objective has his letter diminished by the majority of other physician letters that are not.

But again, 1000 hours with someone should yield a deep and meaningful assessment of your strengths as an applicant

Thanks! I actually didn't set out to shadow so much. I fell in love with rural medicine and just kept coming back lol

 

[Becky'sHair]

High achieving students, like premeds, need to apply nuance, judgement and an overall view of their application and make a one dimensional decision when considering letters

Simply because a physician allows students to shadow all the time provides no indication whether he/she writes some standard letter or actually takes time to do an in depth evaluation. As I said before, the vast majority of typical premed students shadow a physician for 10-20 maybe 50-75 hours, following them around without much in depth interactions. These are the letters that really dont matter as they cant say much. So as a rule, the typical shadowing experience is not worth getting a letter over.

The theory of LOR/LOE is evaluate a student's academic abilities and characteristics; not what they did as much as what is behind how they did so.

So if an applicant has an in depth, constructive, lengthy, formal or some other connection with a physician, where the doctor is in a position to evaluate (not simply recommend) an applicant they me be worth something. As @gyngyn said a PI is the typical example of this. I have many nontrads who work in a clinical setting and thus have physician letters as an employment supervisor.

In the case here, having a 1000 hours shadowing a physician and their team would suggest you may have a more structured and in depth connection with him/her. Furthermore, if the physician involved with rural medicine and that is your area of interest that you are expressing in your application, then it would valuable for that as well. But your situation is very atypical compared to the average shadowing student student.

Thanks! I will include this letter since it speaks to my interest in rural medicine.