physician scientisit

[deleted382095]

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For those of you already completed MD/PhD or DO/PhD training.

Is it realistic to practice as a clinician and have the time to work in a lab, or can you only do clinic-based research?

 

[mTORC]

There is so much on this topic already. Try to use the search function, which is where I got my answers to this same question; if you still have questions, ask away!

 

[Fencer]

Yes, it is possible... hard but with many satisfactions in your career.

 

[deleted382095]

Yes, it is possible... hard but with many satisfactions in your career.

Perhaps I should have been more specific. If you do not have a tenure-track position (no lab space) at a university. How do you conduct research/experiments that require specialized instruments? Do you have to outsourced it to your collaborators or use in-house instrument facilities and let the professional staff to run them for you?

 

[Fencer]

Perhaps, you could be doing some reading on the multiple threads on these subject. MD/PhD graduates are only 3% of the MD graduates. Academic Medicine uses 18-19% of all physicians. MD/PhD graduates are a hot commodity for tenure-track positions.

 

[Neuronix]

Perhaps I should have been more specific. If you do not have a tenure-track position (no lab space) at a university. How do you conduct research/experiments that require specialized instruments? Do you have to outsourced it to your collaborators or use in-house instrument facilities and let the professional staff to run them for you?

You don't need a tenure-track position to have lab space. In fact, tenure-track within clinical departments is more or less ceasing to exist. That said, there are many models for how PIs conduct experiments. It just depends on how much money, space, and time you have. That's all you need to do research. Money, space, and time. Good luck getting any of the three, let alone all three 😉 But if you have them, you might actually get to do some research, at least until the money, space, and/or time runs out or is taken away.

 

[commserver]

It is important to understand what it means to do research.

I know of dermatologist who is MD/PHD. He does research based on his patients which in turn relates to his clinical studies. He is constantly working on new approaches to treatments.

 

[gbwillner]

You don't need a tenure-track position to have lab space. In fact, tenure-track within clinical departments is more or less ceasing to exist. That said, there are many models for how PIs conduct experiments. It just depends on how much money, space, and time you have. That's all you need to do research. Money, space, and time. Good luck getting any of the three, let alone all three 😉 But if you have them, you might actually get to do some research, at least until the money, space, and/or time runs out or is taken away.

QFT, especially the bolded part. The older generation of physician-scientists and advisors are not really aware of this problem, but it is essentially fact at this point.

I just had a discussion with our vice chair and I asked him what specifically is the advantage of tenure-track over clinical track at our institution, because I could not think of a single one. He could not either.

 

[Fencer]

There are a few "perception" benefits of tenure. Tenure gets you a little more "respect" among your basic science colleagues because you formally demonstrated excellence in 2 out of the 3 (teaching, research and service) legs. Think about it as somebody who has done research and published papers but not defended their dissertation.

There are some upper level university committees only made of tenured faculty. Transferability between institutions is just a bit easier as the receiving institution knows that you already jump this hump. Lastly, personal pride...

a middle-age (have 20 years to go) tenured professor

 

[deleted382095]

It is important to understand what it means to do research.

I know of dermatologist who is MD/PHD. He does research based on his patients which in turn relates to his clinical studies. He is constantly working on new approaches to treatments.

You're absolutely correct, perhaps I should've been more specific. What I had in mind was model-based, in vitro type of experiments that utilize spectroscopy, mass spectrometry, chromatography, calorimetry and model simulations.

 

[deleted382095]

QFT, especially the bolded part. The older generation of physician-scientists and advisors are not really aware of this problem, but it is essentially fact at this point.

I just had a discussion with our vice chair and I asked him what specifically is the advantage of tenure-track over clinical track at our institution, because I could not think of a single one. He could not either.

I am not very familiar clinical track position. However, as for tenure-track you're guaranteed to have at least a lab space and an office space with additional start-up fund range from 1 million ~ 5 million dollars depending on where you go and which program/specialty.

 

[Neuronix]

I am not very familiar clinical track position. But as for tenure-track you're guarantee at least a lab space and an office space with additional start-up fund range from 1 million ~ 5 million dollars depending on where you go and which program/specialty.

Keep dreaming kid. This simply doesn't happen anymore.

 

[deleted382095]

Keep dreaming kid. This simply doesn't happen anymore.

Do you mean this does not happen for tenure-track in a hospital-based SOM, or SOMs in general? I know this is still happening for the Chemistry & Biochemistry program I'm currently in right now.

 

[Fencer]

Start-ups for "new" tenure-track positions in clinical departments are more along the $300 K - 1 Million. There might be recruiting packages for new "star" tenured/senior positions at the $ 1-5 Million.

 

[deleted382095]

Start-ups for "new" tenure-track positions in clinical departments are more along the $300 K - 1 Million. There might be recruiting packages for new "star" tenured/senior positions at the $ 1-5 Million.

Thank you, and yes it seems like it's pretty comparable for an assistant, associate, and full professorship tenure position.

 

[QofQuimica]

Most of you responding aren't aware that the OP is currently a chemistry grad student in the second half of his/her PhD.

OP, as we discussed before, I'm not really convinced that you have any need for an MD or DO given that you want to continue doing chemistry research and don't seem all that enthusiastic about patient care. "Poor job prospects in chemistry research" is not going to make a convincing argument to a med school adcom for taking you on.

 

[Neuronix]

Do you mean this does not happen for tenure-track in a hospital-based SOM, or SOMs in general? I know this is still happening for the Chemistry & Biochemistry program I'm currently in right now.

Most of you responding aren't aware that the OP is currently a chemistry grad student in the second half of his/her PhD.

Ah that explains it. Basic science tenure track w/ startup funding positions are extremely competitive and occupied by almost entirely PhDs who have done a PhD followed by 5+ years of post-doc. They are different from positions in clinical departments. The clinical department positions generally have a higher salary, expect clinical work (if you can get a 20% clinical position, you are very lucky, 50% is the typical bargaining point), and come with less startup resources. The good news though is that they are easier to obtain. Getting a bench research position as a practicing MD/PhD is very difficult these days, though still possible. There is a dwindling number of MD/PhDs inhabiting no-mans land, willing to slog through years of a research fellowship (equivalent to post-doc) to try for a shot at these.

Make no mistake CC 3.0, the MD/PhD makes the job market easier *clinically*. The research job market sucks whether you are MD/PhD or PhD. Your ability to get grants does not magically improve because you have an MD/PhD. Available data suggests that funding rates are identical. See: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-to-fix-mstp.900721/

 

[deleted382095]

Most of you responding aren't aware that the OP is currently a chemistry grad student in the second half of his/her PhD.

OP, as we discussed before, I'm not really convinced that you have any need for an MD or DO given that you want to continue doing chemistry research and don't seem all that enthusiastic about patient care. "Poor job prospects in chemistry research" is not going to make a convincing argument to a med school adcom for taking you on.

I will make sure my portfolio is highly convincing and is primarily focused on patient care (with shadowing and volunteering opportunities) when I apply in 2 years. I apologize for gave you the wrong impression from my previous posts.

 

[deleted382095]

Ah that explains it. Basic science tenure track w/ startup funding positions are extremely competitive and occupied by almost entirely PhDs who have done a PhD followed by 5+ years of post-doc. They are different from positions in clinical departments. The clinical department positions generally have a higher salary, expect clinical work (if you can get a 20% clinical position, you are very lucky, 50% is the typical bargaining point), and come with less startup resources. The good news though is that they are easier to obtain. Getting a bench research position as a practicing MD/PhD is very difficult these days, though still possible. There is a dwindling number of MD/PhDs inhabiting no-mans land, willing to slog through years of a research fellowship (equivalent to post-doc) to try for a shot at these.

Make no mistake CC 3.0, the MD/PhD makes the job market easier *clinically*. The research job market sucks whether you are MD/PhD or PhD. Your ability to get grants does not magically improve because you have an MD/PhD. Available data suggests that funding rates are identical. See: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-to-fix-mstp.900721/

Thank you for the link, I found it extremely helpful and informative. The type of research I want to pursue is translational, and you need a MD or a DO for it. I don't think I'm allowed to conduct translational research with a PhD.

 

[gbwillner]

Thank you for the link, I found it extremely helpful and informative. The type of research I want to pursue is translational, and you need a MD or a DO for it. I don't think I'm allowed to conduct translational research with a PhD.

Absolutely false. The only thing you need an MD for is to actually touch patients and write them prescriptions. There are no restrictions on what kind of research you can do as a PhD.

 

[StilgarMD]

Absolutely false. The only thing you need an MD for is to actually touch patients and write them prescriptions. There are no restrictions on what kind of research you can do as a PhD.

On the chance you didn't mean "you need an MD to do transnational research", and more so "the type of research I want to pursue... [requires] a MD or a DO...", you could always just collaborate with someone else who does have those degrees. the future of science and medicine seems to be very team oriented, so unless you feel like you will gain personally - in terms of perspective, knowledge, or satisfaction - from having an MD/DO, its not a good idea.

 

[deleted382095]

Absolutely false. The only thing you need an MD for is to actually touch patients and write them prescriptions. There are no restrictions on what kind of research you can do as a PhD.

On the chance you didn't mean "you need an MD to do transnational research", and more so "the type of research I want to pursue... [requires] a MD or a DO...", you could always just collaborate with someone else who does have those degrees. the future of science and medicine seems to be very team oriented, so unless you feel like you will gain personally - in terms of perspective, knowledge, or satisfaction - from having an MD/DO, its not a good idea.

Thank you for your feedback. I found a post from 2012 that answered all of my questions. What I had in mind was to have the opportunity to conduct clinical/translational research with patients directly, and I'm not allowed to do that with only a PhD degree.

I could have just outsource the clinical part to a physician and call it a day. However, the level of personal satisfaction won't be the same.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/clinical-research-is-an-md-necessary.913849/

 

[gbwillner]

What I had in mind was to have the opportunity to conduct clinical/translational research with patients directly, and I'm not allowed to do that with only a PhD degree.

What specifically do you mean by this? It's not like you are going to have humans in a cage and expose them to your research. Clinical trials involve many people working together. many times the clinicians administering the novel testing/therapies are blinded to the compounds being used and are rarely PhDs or involved in the design of the experiments. Sometimes they involve multiple institutions and centralized administration and review.