Physician Suicide

[Arkangeloid]

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I'm sure we all read kevinmd, but this rather touching article was posted today. What do you guys think?

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/04/physician-suicide-letters.html

 

[evilbooyaa]

Misleading article title (seems like it routinely is on kevinmd). Not the letters from physicians who committed suicide.

Anyway, the point is a decently compelling one. I imagine most of these people (recounting their storires on kevinmd, I mean, not those who committed suicide) were extremely idealistic prior to coming into medical school, and couldn't handle it when their world was shattered as a MS3 (or earlier).

 

[DermViser]

I'm sure we all read kevinmd, but this rather touching article was posted today. What do you guys think?

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/04/physician-suicide-letters.html

Those aren't letters from physicians who committed suicide. For your sake I would stay away from that site. You're too early in your career to be attending level jaded.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

After one of the upper-years committed suicide last year, we as a class have focused on watching out for each other and taking care of one another through tough times. After one of my friends (non-medicine) jumped in front of a train when I was in undergrad, I have been trying to become more attuned to my friends' feelings so that they know they have someone to talk to when they feel all is hopeless.

Take care of one another.

 

[DermViser]

After one of the upper-years committed suicide last year, we as a class have focused on watching out for each other and taking care of one another through tough times. After one of my friends (non-medicine) jumped in front of a train when I was in undergrad, I have been trying to become more attuned to my friends' feelings so that they know they have someone to talk to when they feel all is hopeless.

Take care of one another.

Oh wow, so sorry to hear that. What year was he/she in?

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Oh wow, so sorry to hear that. What year was he/she in?

She was an MS2 when I was an MS1. Didn't know her personally, but it was still a shocker nonetheless. Apparently, nobody else saw any signs that she was in distress. Similar was the case with my friend from undergrad; he was a relatively shy person, but he had become much more social over the past few years that no one saw it coming. He was a smart guy, too, top of his mechanical engineering class.

 

[DermViser]

She was an MS2 when I was an MS1. Didn't know her personally, but it was still a shocker nonetheless. Apparently, nobody else saw any signs that she was in distress. Similar was the case with my friend from undergrad; he was a relatively shy person, but he had become much more social over the past few years that no one saw it coming. He was a smart guy, too, top of his mechanical engineering class.

Wow, just goes to show it's not always bc of "bad grades".

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Someone in my year committed suicide. Horrible, he was quiet and no one realized he was going through stress.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I'm also worried that some school admins have secretly put me on a secret suicide watch. I overheard some of the second years talking about me, and according to them I always look sad, defeated, and stressed.

 

[DermViser]

I'm also worried that some school admins have secretly put me on a secret suicide watch. I overheard some of the second years talking about me, and according to them I always look sad, defeated, and stressed.

Tbh, I used to struggle with suicidal ideation early in college. It resurfaced early on in medical school, but I've sought psychiatric help since then. Now, it doesn't bother me much.

I think medical school administrators are very much experienced with having students feel that way, and thus are very alert to catching it. They'd rather get a few false positives, than miss even one true positive by decreasing the threshold at which they'll press the button and intervene.

The problem is that med students can be very adept at hiding suicidal behavior bc they learn about it in school, so they'll do the exact opposite to throw people off track. Even some doctors do it, and it catches people by surprise. Their close attending colleagues then feel very bad for having missed it.

 

[Mad Jack]

Misleading article title (seems like it routinely is on kevinmd). Not the letters from physicians who committed suicide.

Anyway, the point is a decently compelling one. I imagine most of these people (recounting their storires on kevinmd, I mean, not those who committed suicide) were extremely idealistic prior to coming into medical school, and couldn't handle it when their world was shattered as a MS3 (or earlier).

Makes me thankful I'm going in already knowing medicine is basically a **** show. I feel like a lot of those letters are just reflections of idealism that's been dashed against the rocks of reality and bureaucracy. It's sad, because medicine should be an idealistic profession, but with the way things are structured these days, there's little room for idealism or creativity, and it's probably only going to get worse as time moves on.

To anyone that might be lurking this thread that is depressed or considering suicide, try to seek professional counseling as soon as possible. Stress, sleep deprivation, and being torn away from friends and family can easily get to even the best of us over a long enough timespan. Medicine may be a calling, but at the end of the day, it's just a career. Yeah, on its best days, it is a magical one that gives you the warm fuzzies after a good call or a successful resuscitation, but it's still just a career nonetheless, with a lot of flaws and blemishes to go along with the nice bits. Military aside, no career is worth sacrificing your life or happiness for.

 

[DermViser]

Makes me thankful I'm going in already knowing medicine is basically a **** show. I feel like a lot of those letters are just reflections of idealism that's been dashed against the rocks of reality and bureaucracy. It's sad, because medicine should be an idealistic profession, but with the way things are structured these days, there's little room for idealism or creativity, and it's probably only going to get worse as time moves on.

To anyone that might be lurking this thread that is depressed or considering suicide, try to seek professional counseling as soon as possible. Stress, sleep deprivation, and being torn away from friends and family can easily get to even the best of us over a long enough timespan. Medicine may be a calling, but at the end of the day, it's just a career. Yeah, on its best days, it is a magical one that gives you the warm fuzzies after a good call or a successful resuscitation, but it's still just a career nonetheless, with a lot of flaws and blemishes to go along with the nice bits. Military aside, no career is worth sacrificing your life or happiness for.

I think what's interesting is that those who are suicidal tend to believe that everyone else is doing better than they are, and getting it faster than they are, or that those at the top of the class are somehow the happiest to be in medical school. The enjoyable part of med school was meeting and creating lifelong friends who had your back. I don't know one person who enjoyed going through school so much they wished they could do it over again.

By the time, our 4 years were done, we were so happy for med school to be over, it wasn't even funny.

 

[Kahreek]

Those aren't letters from physicians who committed suicide. For your sake I would stay away from that site. You're too early in your career to be attending level jaded.

now I will have to click that

 

[Kahreek]

I do see many risk taking behaviours among physicians. they seem desensitized to self preservation. Not as in suicidal, but live fast die young hospital crew.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I do see many risk taking behaviours among physicians. they seem desensitized to self preservation. Not as in suicidal, but live fast die young hospital crew.

But if I wanted to live fast and die young, wouldn't I spend the 300K on babes and beemers and blow rather than a medical education?

 

[circulus vitios]

I wonder how many of those doctors matched into slave specialties. Don't drink the "it's not work if you love it" koolaid. Working 70 or 80 hours a week or dealing with any of the garbage that is intrinsic to primary care will ****ing suck, no matter how much you love it.

 

[Kahreek]

But if I wanted to live fast and die young, wouldn't I spend the 300K on babes and beemers and blow rather than a medical education?

but that only happens after being in practise, so no

and many do end up spending all their money on "on babes and beemers and blow" 🙂

 

[Smokemont]

I wonder how many of those doctors matched into slave specialties. Don't drink the "it's not work if you love it" koolaid. Working 70 or 80 hours a week or dealing with any of the garbage that is intrinsic to primary care will ******* suck, no matter how much you love it.

So what specialty do you suggest? Not everyone can go into derm...

 

[throw away]

Edit: deleted because I'm paranoid and kept worrying about being identified...

Haha what has med school done to me??

 

[CherryRedDracul]

.

 

[Substance]

I wonder how many of those doctors matched into slave specialties. Don't drink the "it's not work if you love it" koolaid. Working 70 or 80 hours a week or dealing with any of the garbage that is intrinsic to primary care will ******* suck, no matter how much you love it.

I bet most. Primary care is a sinking ship, and nobody should sign up to be a martyr for the cause.

As I say, if its so valuable, why isn't it paid that way?

Medical culture denigrates doctors that have psychiatric disease. Look at any application for licensure and you will certainly find a tick-box with the question "Have you ever been diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder?" affixed next to it. If you are in medicine and have depression, heavy thoughts of suicide etc. then I suggest you get counselling, but NOT from anyone at your school, and that you pay cash and use a fake name. You don't want this crap following you.

I also think that Pamela Wiebe, as noble as her intentions may or may not be, is writing fictional letters posing as other people. If you go to a few websites that she is featured on, you'll see exact copypastas of some of these accounts in the comments section of each website. Unless she has a very determined i-stalker, my guess is that its her doing it.

 

[ZuluHotel]

But if I wanted to live fast and die young, wouldn't I spend the 300K on babes and beemers and blow rather than a medical education?

Fantastic idea, why didn't I think of that?? Tomorrow I'm going to head to the Bank of Babes Beemers and Blow and take one of those $300k party loans they're handing out

 

[Etorphine]

I am fortunate that I have never heard of a physician suicide personally, but when I read the statistics, they are quite staggering and undoubtedly represent very real concerns to a large group of individuals.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I bet most. Primary care is a sinking ship, and nobody should sign up to be a martyr for the cause.

As I say, if its so valuable, why isn't it paid that way?

Medical culture denigrates doctors that have psychiatric disease. Look at any application for licensure and you will certainly find a tick-box with the question "Have you ever been diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder?" affixed next to it. If you are in medicine and have depression, heavy thoughts of suicide etc. then I suggest you get counselling, but NOT from anyone at your school, and that you pay cash and use a fake name. You don't want this crap following you.

Well, I suppose it's too late for me now, haha.

 

[DermViser]

So what specialty do you suggest? Not everyone can go into derm...

Radiology, Ophtho, Anesthesiology, PM&R, Rad Onc

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Edit: deleted because I'm paranoid and kept worrying about being identified...

Haha what has med school done to me??

Made you a paranoid little monkey.

You have been compromised

 

[circulus vitios]

Radiology, Ophtho, Anesthesiology, PM&R, Rad Onc

Path if you can deal with the terrible job market, EM if you can handle swing shift for 30 hours a week, PM&R, neurology (maybe? I don't really know much about neurology but I've heard it can be good), a few of the IM subspecialties -- allergy, heme/onc, sleep medicine, maybe gastro -- if you can put up with eating **** 80 hours/week for 3 years of IM residency.

 

[Substance]

So what specialty do you suggest? Not everyone can go into derm...

Rad onc is harder to get into than derm is.
Anesthesia can be ok but they're having issues with AMCs
Radiology is a wild-card in terms of future potential. Right now the job market is bollocks. I suspect that it will get better, so now's the time to buy low.
Emergency medicine is shift work, but is very portable.
Nuclear medicine is the worst specialty in terms of job market. Never apply to it.
Ophthalmology is a good choice, but it is also hard to get into.
Path is lax but has been reduced to a cog in a corporate machine.
Psychiatry is psychiatry. You either like it or you don't.
PM&R is said to have a pretty chill lifestyle but honestly I still have no idea what they do.

 

[siliso]

Physicians don't attempt suicide more than other people do, but they have more completed suicides. I.e., being a physician does not make a person more depressed or suicidal than whatever other profession, or unemployment. We're just more informed about how to get it done, and use more reliably lethal methods. In a similar way more genpop women attempt suicide but more men complete suicide because men use more lethal methods - as far as I've read, this accounts for the increased rate of death by suicide among female physicians. Sad but also somewhat reassuring about the psychic effects of being in medicine.

 

[DermViser]

Physicians don't attempt suicide more than other people do, but they have more completed suicides. I.e., being a physician does not make a person more depressed or suicidal than whatever other profession, or unemployment. We're just more informed about how to get it done, and use more reliably lethal methods. In a similar way more genpop women attempt suicide but more men complete suicide because men use more lethal methods - as far as I've read, this accounts for the increased rate of death by suicide among female physicians. Sad but also somewhat reassuring about the psychic effects of being in medicine.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Physicians don't attempt suicide more than other people do, but they have more completed suicides. I.e., being a physician does not make a person more depressed or suicidal than whatever other profession, or unemployment. We're just more informed about how to get it done, and use more reliably lethal methods. In a similar way more genpop women attempt suicide but more men complete suicide because men use more lethal methods - as far as I've read, this accounts for the increased rate of death by suicide among female physicians. Sad but also somewhat reassuring about the psychic effects of being in medicine.

 

[DermViser]

Rad onc is harder to get into than derm is.
Anesthesia can be ok but they're having issues with AMCs
Radiology is a wild-card in terms of future potential. Right now the job market is bollocks. I suspect that it will get better, so now's the time to buy low.
Emergency medicine is shift work, but is very portable.
Nuclear medicine is the worst specialty in terms of job market. Never apply to it.
Ophthalmology is a good choice, but it is also hard to get into.
Path is lax but has been reduced to a cog in a corporate machine.
Psychiatry is psychiatry. You either like it or you don't.
PM&R is said to have a pretty chill lifestyle but honestly I still have no idea what they do.

Emergency Medicine is not the chill specialty you think it is. It really wears you down.

 

[Lucca]

I find it disturbing that conversations on SDN that have to do with burnout and depression devolve into specialty-comparisons and financials.

It should be obvious that the trend of mental health issues in this country, and the associated stigmas, are symptomatic of a much deeper socio-cultural norm. This trend of unhappiness is not unique to medicine, in fact it's prevalent everywhere.

While lifestyle is certainly an enormous contributing factor, this phenomena has much more to do with people's abilities to appraise and value themselves and the world around them.

I find it especially disturbing that there is very little mention in these discussions about internal factors like educational pressure and the failures of the education system.

While resources exist for people to get help with their mental health it is seen as something you only reach out to if there is something severely wrong with you, if something needs to be "fixed".

To me, as someone who has been clinically depressed in the past, I feel it is a problem of evaluating "context". That is, depression is the direct result of an inability to connect with others and the world around you on a level so fundamental that you feel the need to evacuate yourself from it.

You have a choice in the way you see the world and interact with it, I advise you take every opportunity to connect with other humans beings. To suffer with them, empathize with them - don't brush off warning behavior like being obsessed with prestige or conflating self-esteem with academic performance (the most common sign of a mental health disorder among students, imo) but instead pay attention to it, acknowledge it, and find ways to mend it.

This point has almost religious significance to people entering this profession since it is so laden with suffering. Personal and otherwise.

Here's my point: When evaluating a situation - in this case, medicine as a career - don't look to specialty, or money, or outside factors because those can be quickly and accurately appraised on an individual level. Instead, look inward. Within yourself and within others. Look inward for failures to establish context for your life, for failures to emancipate yourself from the inevitable sense of isolation that is a product of the solitary struggle to succeed and survive in the world; the most important thing you can do in life is connect with others and understand yourself.