Physics

[HopelessGirl]

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I know there has been many questions about it, but I am still confused about which one to take (Algebra/Calculus).

I emailed the professor asking for his opinion and he told me I should take Algebra-based because it is primarily for engineers.

However, it shocked me because I thought the concepts were easier to understand in Calculus-based Physics.

To learn the concepts, which one is better to take?

 

[Ismet]

Calculus-based is the one for engineers. Algebra-based is the one typically taken by most pre-meds.

Short answer: to better learn the concepts, take calc-based physics.

Personally, I took calc-based physics and loved it, but I have always been strong with physics and math. I never took alg-based so I can't compare the two personally, but it is my understanding that alg-based physics has to take a lot of shortcuts in order to explain the concepts. Understanding the math behind physics (calculus was created to describe physics) makes the concepts much easier to understand. You're actually understanding what is going on fundamentally, instead of just memorizing a bunch of plug and chug equations and facts.

 

[yanks26dmb]

I know there has been many questions about it, but I am still confused about which one to take (Algebra/Calculus).

I emailed the professor asking for his opinion and he told me I should take Algebra-based because it is primarily for engineers.

However, it shocked me because I thought the concepts were easier to understand in Calculus-based Physics.

To learn the concepts, which one is better to take?

It should also be mentioned, calc based physics is much harder for MOST people. You don't need calc-based physics on the MCAT, nor do you need it in med school. Why take the harder physics? Go for algebra-based and have a better shot at getting an A in both.

 

[Oso]

While I agree with everything Ismet said (I also took calculus based), it doesn't really matter which you take. The physics on the mcat is algebra based, so don't worry too much about taking algebra based course and missing some of the calc stuff. Just make sure to do well and actually understand the material (don't just get used to using equations). Good luck.

 

[Espadaleader]

If you want to protect your GPA, especially if math is not your strongest subject, go algebra based. You can still understand things conceptually in algebra based physics, of course not to the extent of calc-based physics, but thats not the point. The point is to get an A and to get what you need from physics to do well on the MCAT. If you want to learn calc-based physics, I would hit up MIT OCW or some other free service thats not tied to your GPA. @Ismet had a strong math and physics background. I only had Calc 1 and 2 and even though I received solid A's in those courses, I did not feel comfortable in taking Calc based physics.

 

[Ismet]

@Ismet had a strong math and physics background. I only had Calc 1 and 2 and even though I received solid A's in those courses, I did not feel comfortable in taking Calc based physics.

...you don't need anything more than calc 1 and 2 to take calc-based physics. In fact, I took Calc 1 and 2 concurrently with calc-based phys in my freshman year. I did have AP Physics B in high school, but that was alg-based.

 

[Espadaleader]

...you don't need anything more than calc 1 and 2 to take calc-based physics. In fact, I took Calc 1 and 2 concurrently with calc-based phys in my freshman year. I did have AP Physics B in high school, but that was alg-based.

That's true, I didn't feel comfortable though. you are a different case though. You took AP Physics in high school and took Physics I and II freshman year. That's a physical science track. Most life science majors are taking physics in their junior year without AP Physics, and if they did take AP Physics, it is three years in the past and may be forgotten.

If a freshman that is 5 months removed from AP Physics and/or AP Calc came to me I would recommend Calc based physics.
If a junior that is 2 or 3 years removed from freshman Calc/AP Calc and never took AP Physics, I would not recommend Calc-based physics.

You were "that" freshman, I am assuming the OP is "that" junior. I agree with you, but I know for a fact most life science Pre-Meds are not even thinking about Physics I in freshman year.

 

[kyamh]

I think that the Calculus based class is more interesting since you do more talking about physics than learning equations etc, but the Algebra based one will prepare you for the MCAT better if you are a marginal student. A student who really gets physics won't have any trouble with either route/the MCAT, but if you struggle with the material, you will have an easier time memorizing equations and "getting through it" in the algebra based one.

 

[HopelessGirl]

I'm currently a sophomore and if I begin the algebra-track I need to wait until next year and I have the free time now to devote to the first class of the sequence. The physics worries me. I got through Physics B by plugging anything I could into equations which got me a big fat 2 on the AP exam.

 

[Doudline]

Two of the three physics classes I had to take for my major were calculus based, and the calculus part added absolutely nothing for me; I actually thought it significantly detracted from my conceptual understanding (I suppose it helps you remember a formula or two, however). It was also more work, considering I had many calculus based proofs to learn and regurgitate.

Each his own I guess.

 

[HopelessGirl]

So I should wait until next year to begin the Algebra sequence?

 

[HopelessGirl]

I think I'll overload on classes, attempt Calc-based, and if I'm doing bad I'll drop it by the drop deadline and take Algebra-based next year.

 

[487806]

Calculus-based is the one for engineers. Algebra-based is the one typically taken by most pre-meds.

Short answer: to better learn the concepts, take calc-based physics.

Personally, I took calc-based physics and loved it, but I have always been strong with physics and math. I never took alg-based so I can't compare the two personally, but it is my understanding that alg-based physics has to take a lot of shortcuts in order to explain the concepts. Understanding the math behind physics (calculus was created to describe physics) makes the concepts much easier to understand. You're actually understanding what is going on fundamentally, instead of just memorizing a bunch of plug and chug equations and facts.

I think that the Calculus based class is more interesting since you do more talking about physics than learning equations etc, but the Algebra based one will prepare you for the MCAT better if you are a marginal student. A student who really gets physics won't have any trouble with either route/the MCAT, but if you struggle with the material, you will have an easier time memorizing equations and "getting through it" in the algebra based one.

I love you guys. 😍

 

[moisne]

How were you in math? I like calc-based physics because the exam average NEVER passed 65%. I like classes with low averages - easier to get an A

 

[moisne]

I think I'll overload on classes, attempt Calc-based, and if I'm doing bad I'll drop it by the drop deadline and take Algebra-based next year.

You will be wasting time. Remember having W's on your transcripts isn't a good thing.

 

[jjmusicman29]

If you want to protect your GPA, especially if math is not your strongest subject, go algebra based. You can still understand things conceptually in algebra based physics, of course not to the extent of calc-based physics, but thats not the point. The point is to get an A and to get what you need from physics to do well on the MCAT. If you want to learn calc-based physics, I would hit up MIT OCW or some other free service thats not tied to your GPA. @Ismet had a strong math and physics background. I only had Calc 1 and 2 and even though I received solid A's in those courses, I did not feel comfortable in taking Calc based physics.

It's odd because even though this would be my intuition to tell people, hearing the experience from my friends in algebra-based physics gives me the opposite impression. The test averages were horrifically low in algebra-based physics at my school (like 40s) and a large portion of students routinely failed the course. From what I gathered, it was a combination of physics being hard, extremely intelligent physics professors being unable to "dumb down" the material to an algebra level, among other things. Even I have trouble tutoring my friends in those classes because it's hard to explain why things in physics work a certain way with just algebra. "I just use this equation? But what about in this case? Why can't I use the formula then?" is a frequent question I hear from the friends I tutor, and it's hard to explain when they are taught to just memorize junk and plug in numbers.

I took both semesters of calculus-based physics and adored it--I made an A in both. From that experience, I say that physics is beautifully described with calculus to where you don't really have to memorize much, you can problem-solve and "math" your way through everything you need to solve a physics problem. Physics with algebra is daunting because of how many different situations you have to learn and memorize, I suppose. I for the life of me can't remember some of the basic algebraic kinematics equations for objects falling at different angles or speeds or whatever--but I sure can derive each scenario in a minute or two and easily solve the problem for any scenario using calculus.

If you are terrible at math, though, definitely stay away from calculus-based physics because you won't survive. But if you have the math skills, I recommend giving it a shot.

Having aced calculus-based physics, I'm skimming through the physics practice problems for the MCAT and it seems really basic. It'll really give you a deeper understanding of what the subject is about if you take calculus-based physics, in my opinion.

 

[slightlygifted]

Everybody advising alegbra based for a better chance at an A has the wrong outlook on things. Which is easier to get an A in, a class where everybody is an engineer shooting for a C or a class where everybody is a premed ready to kill for an A? I would go with calc based, after the curve an A will likely be like a 50%.

 

[moisne]

Everybody advising alegbra based for a better chance at an A has the wrong outlook on things. Which is easier to get an A in, a class where everybody is an engineer shooting for a C or a class where everybody is a premed ready to kill for an A? I would go with calc based, after the curve an A will likely be like a 50%.

many "pre-meds" don't make it

 

[Espadaleader]

Quick poll. What is everyone's major? Physical sciences? Biochemistry, Physics, Chemistry, Engineering?

 

[jjmusicman29]

Quick poll. What is everyone's major? Physical sciences? Biochemistry, Physics, Chemistry, Engineering?

Personally I am a Chemical Engineer, but I took calculus-based physics before I became an engineer.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Quick poll. What is everyone's major? Physical sciences? Biochemistry, Physics, Chemistry, Engineering?

None of the above.

Took algebra based physics in college after having taken AP physics I and II in high school and felt like I was in a class for the mentally challenged.

 

[slightlygifted]

Quick poll. What is everyone's major? Physical sciences? Biochemistry, Physics, Chemistry, Engineering?

physics

 

[Lucca]

Quick poll. What is everyone's major? Physical sciences? Biochemistry, Physics, Chemistry, Engineering?

Switching to Biochemistry but currently it is still Physics. I took Calc-Based physics 1/2 with the labs. I managed to ace them but the amount of effort it took was disproportionate to the value I feel I derived from those courses. If I had to do it again I would take algebra based or have waited to take both physics in the summer where the TAs are easier.

EDIT: Caveat: I've taken honors calculus/math at my uni and higher level mathematics and I already came into these classes with a very good understanding of calculus and physical relationships. Also, what you take will depend on how unreasonable your phys. dept. is at your university.

 

[Espadaleader]

All of you guys are like math wizards cause you are physical science majors. Life science majors are not about that life. We're muggles. For real thou. lol. The OP is prob a BIO major or something without a strong quant background.

None of the above.

Took algebra based physics in college after having taken AP physics I and II in high school and felt like I was in a class for the mentally challenged.

lol.

 

[kyamh]

Neuroscience with a concentration in computational neuro (basically programming) 🙂

 

[HopelessGirl]

Everybody advising alegbra based for a better chance at an A has the wrong outlook on things. Which is easier to get an A in, a class where everybody is an engineer shooting for a C or a class where everybody is a premed ready to kill for an A? I would go with calc based, after the curve an A will likely be like a 50%.

Exactly. 10% of students get an A in any science class here. And engineers (who take Calc-based) are probably more likely to do well than premeds. I still want to attempt it though..

 

[HopelessGirl]

You will be wasting time. Remember having W's on your transcripts isn't a good thing.

My school doesn't have W's. We have "drop the class halfway through as if you never took it at all".

 

[edgerock24]

Suggesting somebody to take calc-based physics is terrible advice for a premed. Who cares about "getting the most out of the course" or "appreciating the material." Whoopty freaking do. Take algebra-based (which hopefully prepares you more appropriately for the MCAT), minimize stress, and maximize your GPA.

 

[kyamh]

Suggesting somebody to take calc-based physics is terrible advice for a premed. Who cares about "getting the most out of the course" or "appreciating the material." Whoopty freaking do. Take algebra-based (which hopefully prepares you more appropriately for the MCAT), minimize stress, and maximize your GPA.

Thing 1:
If you get a lot out of the course and appreciate the material, you are much more likely to remember it well. There is a reason that some people need to study for 6 months for the MCAT and others can get away with a month - the second group learned the material well to begin with and don't have to relearn their pre-reqs. Sure, you can memorize all the equations for physics and regurgitate them for an A, or you can actually internalize the concepts and not have to re-memorize for the MCAT.

Thing 2:
Life is not just about getting into medical school. All of your courses are more than just hoops. You are spending 4 years of your life in college, which is a solid chunk, it's a shame to not get as much as possible of that experience. Believe it or not, there are plenty of students out there who are genuinely curious about the world they live in.

 

[HopelessGirl]

Suggesting somebody to take calc-based physics is terrible advice for a premed. Who cares about "getting the most out of the course" or "appreciating the material." Whoopty freaking do. Take algebra-based (which hopefully prepares you more appropriately for the MCAT), minimize stress, and maximize your GPA.

Well premeds are really smart here too... And I don't think I'll understand the material if I take algebra-based.. but oh well. I realize I'm screwed either way.

 

[Jibby321]

My undergrad required you to have calc 2 as a co-req. Which I believe is a very common requirement. So if you don't plan on taking calc 2 ( Which is much harder than calc 1) just take the algebra based physics.

 

[HopelessGirl]

I took Differential in high school, Integral first quarter freshman year, and I plan to take Multivariable. I also TA a Calculus class.

 

[Lucca]

Thing 1:
If you get a lot out of the course and appreciate the material, you are much more likely to remember it well. There is a reason that some people need to study for 6 months for the MCAT and others can get away with a month - the second group learned the material well to begin with and don't have to relearn their pre-reqs. Sure, you can memorize all the equations for physics and regurgitate them for an A, or you can actually internalize the concepts and not have to re-memorize for the MCAT.

Thing 2:
Life is not just about getting into medical school. All of your courses are more than just hoops. You are spending 4 years of your life in college, which is a solid chunk, it's a shame to not get as much as possible of that experience. Believe it or not, there are plenty of students out there who are genuinely curious about the world they live in.

This is a great commemt, but don't forget that you've already been accepted. It's hard to not fall into the gpa crunching game. I'll admit that sometimes I wish I just took easy classes and didnt do two degrees but then I'd be miserable. Then again, everytime I get a bad grade on a hard test, even if its the average, it stings and my heart sinks. It sucks. I wouldn't recommend that to anyone. Ultimately, people need to find a balance between skills/ability and curiousty/interest. I wish I didn't have to do that though. **** GPA. Seriously. Rant over

 

[HopelessGirl]

This is a great commemt, but don't forget that you've already been accepted. It's hard to not fall into the gpa crunching game. I'll admit that sometimes I wish I just took easy classes and didnt do two degrees but then I'd be miserable. Then again, everytime I get a bad grade on a hard test, even if its the average, it stings and my heart sinks. It sucks. I wouldn't recommend that to anyone. Ultimately, people need to find a balance between skills/ability and curiousty/interest. I wish I didn't have to do that though. **** GPA. Seriously. Rant over

Except when you don't even have a 3.0 like me (Science). It's crunch time/GPA time for me. I hate college because of how bad I'm doing.

 

[Lucca]

Yah, I'm sorry it has to be that way. Take the easiest route but really try to understand the concepts

Except when you don't even have a 3.0 like me (Science). It's crunch time/GPA time for me. I hate college because of how bad I'm doing.

 

[HopelessGirl]

Yah, I'm sorry it has to be that way. Take the easiest route but really try to understand the concepts

Well, the problem is if I do take Algebra-based, I have to wait until next year along with higher Biology classes + MCAT prep.

 

[boomshaketheroom]

Biochem major, but if you have a solid knowledge of calculus, applying calculus to non-calc physics makes it pretty easy.

 

[487806]

Suggesting somebody to take calc-based physics is terrible advice for a premed. Who cares about "getting the most out of the course" or "appreciating the material." Whoopty freaking do. Take algebra-based (which hopefully prepares you more appropriately for the MCAT), minimize stress, and maximize your GPA.

Lol. Dat checkbox mentality.

Aside from @Espadaleader arguments which actually are reasonable, comments and opinions from the anti-"calc-based physics" group are frankly uninformed nonsense and not worth wasting time arguing.

OP, you have that checkbox mentality in the post I quoted, so you will be slaughtered in calc-based physics simply because you're not even interested in learning physics (I mean you would think "Gosh, physics is just another hoop to jump through, so why should I waste my time learning this crap?"). So, take algebra-based physics in this case.

 

[HopelessGirl]

Lol. Dat checkbox mentality.

Aside from @Espadaleader arguments which actually are reasonable, comments and opinions from the anti-"calc-based physics" group are frankly uninformed nonsense and not worth wasting time arguing.

OP, you have that checkbox mentality in the post I quoted, so you will be slaughtered in calc-based physics simply because you're not even interested in learning physics (I mean you would think "Gosh, physics is just another hoop to jump through, so why should I waste my time learning this crap?"). So, take algebra-based physics in this case.

I enjoyed Physics, a lot. I took Honors and then AP in high school. I just SUCK at it. And my goal is to go to medical school and in order to do so I need to fix my GPA.

 

[487806]

I enjoyed Physics, a lot. I took Honors and then AP in high school. I just SUCK at it. And my goal is to go to medical school and in order to do so I need to fix my GPA.

If you truly enjoy physics (as in willing to actually learn and work your butt off) then you should take calc-based physics as it is much more meaningful and will help you in the long-run. But since you seem to be struggling, you need to reflect as to where your flaws actually reside and immediately resolve them. Get a tutor, consult your prof's office hours whatever, but you aren't actually learning physics if you're doing poorly on it.

 

[fuzzytoad]

Algebraic physics will not fully encapsulate the concepts of even basic first year physics. Classical mechanics is the study of how things change, and algebraic physics will only tell you how changing systems behave on some time-averaged scale. CM is quintessentially subject about solving differential equations given certain initial conditions (in fact, you could argue that all of undergrad physics is just this) - algebraic physics is the reduction of these concepts to nearly trivial cases.

If you are extremely clever, however, you may be able to tease out the main concepts by extrapolating on what you know from algebraic physics. In your situation, HopelessGirl, I think you may be better served taking algebraic physics since your GPA is not at a comfortable area (unless you are confident that you can ace the course). Although it will not teach you enough about the core concepts to understand classical mechanics, if you are clever it will be enough to get you through the MCAT.

That said - favour fortunes the bold. Take that for what it's worth.

 

[HopelessGirl]

Algebraic physics will not fully encapsulate the concepts of even basic first year physics. Classical mechanics is the study of how things change, and algebraic physics will only tell you how changing systems behave on some time-averaged scale. CM is quintessentially subject about solving differential equations given certain initial conditions (in fact, you could argue that all of undergrad physics is just this) - algebraic physics is the reduction of these concepts to nearly trivial cases.

If you are extremely clever, however, you may be able to tease out the main concepts by extrapolating on what you know from algebraic physics. In your situation, HopelessGirl, I think you may be better served taking algebraic physics since your GPA is not at a comfortable area (unless you are confident that you can ace the course). Although it will not teach you enough about the core concepts to understand classical mechanics, if you are clever it will be enough to get you through the MCAT.

That said - favour fortunes the bold. Take that for what it's worth.

If I knew what class was better for GPA, I wouldn't be asking this question. :/ Algebra-based seems like it would be, but both classes operate on a curve, and both classes have smart students (pre-meds vs engineers).

 

[fuzzytoad]

If I knew what class was better for GPA, I wouldn't be asking this question. :/ Algebra-based seems like it would be, but both classes operate on a curve, and both classes have smart students (pre-meds vs engineers).

If by this you mean that you would rather go with whatever will make your GPA better, then I think you have your answer based on the other replies in this thread. The courses may both be curved, but one will definitely require a lot more effort than the other, and this will affect your overall GPA.

 

[HopelessGirl]

If by this you mean that you would rather go with whatever will make your GPA better, then I think you have your answer based on the other replies in this thread. The courses may both be curved, but one will definitely require a lot more effort than the other, and this will affect your overall GPA.

Work doesn't scare me... I want to understand the material.

 

[HopelessGirl]

If you truly enjoy physics (as in willing to actually learn and work your butt off) then you should take calc-based physics as it is much more meaningful and will help you in the long-run. But since you seem to be struggling, you need to reflect as to where your flaws actually reside and immediately resolve them. Get a tutor, consult your prof's office hours whatever, but you aren't actually learning physics if you're doing poorly on it.

Yes, but a year of doing so bad can make learning no longer enjoyable. 🙁

 

[487806]

Algebraic physics will not fully encapsulate the concepts of even basic first year physics. Classical mechanics is the study of how things change, and algebraic physics will only tell you how changing systems behave on some time-averaged scale. CM is quintessentially subject about solving differential equations given certain initial conditions (in fact, you could argue that all of undergrad physics is just this) - algebraic physics is the reduction of these concepts to nearly trivial cases.

If you are extremely clever, however, you may be able to tease out the main concepts by extrapolating on what you know from algebraic physics. In your situation, HopelessGirl, I think you may be better served taking algebraic physics since your GPA is not at a comfortable area (unless you are confident that you can ace the course). Although it will not teach you enough about the core concepts to understand classical mechanics, if you are clever it will be enough to get you through the MCAT.

That said - favour fortunes the bold. Take that for what it's worth.

... classical mechanics is an upper-level physics course. Sure it's built on Newton's Laws, but the amount of intensive computations and abstract formalisms are daunting and make introductory physics (algebra or calculus-based) look like a joke. I understand what your point is, but just going on a more technical scale since that's what classical mechanics usually means in an advanced UG or grad school level...

Plus calc-based physics also includes E&M. To be very honest, algebra-based physics group is lying if they say they understood E&M without using calculus. That's just sheer ignorance because the central equations in E&M involve calculus (including vector calculus)

Yes, but a year of doing so bad can make learning no longer enjoyable. 🙁

I'll be honest. If you're taking any class with a mindset of doing poorly, you will likely do poorly. Think positive and utilize all resources. Be in good terms with your professor (this is key). Also, if your assigned textbook is Halliday, Resnick and Walker or Serway and Jewett, then you're in luck because those books are by far the best introductory physics textbooks.

 

[fuzzytoad]

Work doesn't scare me... I want to understand the material.

Yes - the implied message here is that you will understand if you work at it. I'll stand by that.

Agent B I'm referring to classical mechanical as a field, which is what first year physics is about. I'm telling you as a physics major having spent 4 years thinking about this kind of stuff what my professors told me: calculus is integral to understanding Newtonian physics (heh). It is not a matter of technicality. Its a matter of understanding how systems evolve through time defined by a second order differential equation (newtons second law). It would be like learning life science without biochemistry.

 

[487806]

Yes - the implied message here is that you will understand if you work at it. I'll stand by that.

Agent B I'm referring to classical mechanical as a field, which is what first year physics is about. I'm telling you as a physics major having spent 4 years thinking about this kind of stuff what my professors told me: calculus is integral to understanding Newtonian physics (heh). It is not a matter of technicality. Its a matter of understanding how systems evolve through time defined by a second order differential equation (newtons second law). It would be like learning life science without biochemistry.

We're talking about the same thing but have different definitions of classical mechanics. I'm talking about the field as well, but introductory physics is usually called "Introductory Physics" or "Fundamentals of Physics" (i.e. Just involving Newton's Laws). Classical mechanics includes alternative formulations of Newton's Laws, rigid body dynamics, orbital motion etc. Perhaps this designation doesn't apply to all universities, which is why our definitions change.

Anyways, I digress. OP and most people won't even take upper level physics so our debate is rather moot (and seem we're talking jargon)

 

[HopelessGirl]

... classical mechanics is an upper-level physics course. Sure it's built on Newton's Laws, but the amount of intensive computations and abstract formalisms are daunting and make introductory physics (algebra or calculus-based) look like a joke. I understand what your point is, but just going on a more technical scale since that's what classical mechanics usually means in an advanced UG or grad school level...

Plus calc-based physics also includes E&M. To be very honest, algebra-based physics group is lying if they say they understood E&M without using calculus. That's just sheer ignorance because the central equations in E&M involve calculus (including vector calculus)



I'll be honest. If you're taking any class with a mindset of doing poorly, you will likely do poorly. Think positive and utilize all resources. Be in good terms with your professor (this is key). Also, if your assigned textbook is Halliday, Resnick and Walker or Serway and Jewett, then you're in luck because those books are by far the best introductory physics textbooks.

Halliday for Calculus-based. I think I will take it. I just found the Physics is for people who understand it. I worked hard at it in high school and didn't understand it when I took AP.

 

[487806]

Halliday for Calculus-hased. I think I will take it. I just found the Physics is for people who understand it. I worked hard at it in high school and didn't understand it when I took AP.

Yeah that book is really useful. Don't worry, I didn't understand AP physics in high school as well and my grades on exams ranged from 54%-100%... it was a really difficult class but really prepared me for the two AP Physics C exams and gave me the foundation in college. Point is, high school physics performance shouldn't hinder you from doing well in college. Utilize all your resources available and be in good terms with your prof and TAs, and you'll be good.