Physiology Dog Labs

[Stitch]

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Okay, my school had a physiology lab in which a live dog was deeply anesthetized. You then watch the cardiopulmonary physiology change as specific drugs are infused, such as epinephrine or acetylcholine. The vegus nerve is cut and stimulated to see the effects on HR. At the end of the lab, the mediastinum is exposed such that you can watch the lungs inflate and the heat beat. KCl is injected which of course causes fibrillation and and a concurrent fall in blood pressure. Finially students are encouraged to manually pump the heart with their hand. The dog of course dies.

We had the choice of whether to attend or not. Most of my class did. I attended. My question is this: how typical is this lab? Please do NOT turn this into an ethical debate. I want to know how many other schools do this, and if you went did you feel you really learned a lot? I have heard that many schools now do a computer progam instead. Thanks.

 

[ckent]

This used to be a very common practice at most med schools. Given dog's improved status to "man's best friend", it fell out of favor for most med schools a while ago because med schools didn't want the bad pr. It seems very unnecessary to still have dog labs in my opinion, the same thing could probably be seen with a pig or some other animal and you would have less of a public outcry. And then of course there is computers, our school made a cheesy program called "simuldog", which allows you do to do the same experiments on the computer. You probably get a better idea of the numbers involved in physio using a computer too. The dog lab probably isn't as useful as a learning tool if you are all just sharing one dog too, but if you had more dogs (like one per small group), you'd probably have animal rights people breathing down your neck.

 

[Zeffer]

My school does the dog lab. I thought it was a great learning opportunity. I learned more than just phys that day. We also do it like ckent suggests with one dog/5 students. We also have computer programs that will simulate everything. If I had to choose between the 2 I would go with the dog lab.

 

[Purifyer]

....Interesting.

We had a computer program simulating the effects of above on a person. Quite boring to be honest.

I'm no animal rights activist but... I had no idea this sort of thing still went on in western med schools. I think the closest thing we have done, is when we used a frog's sciatic nerve to study Action Potentials and how they're affected/effected etc.

 

[imtiaz]

we did the cardiovascular lab with pigs. i thought it was a great learning experience.

 

[rbassdo]

this happens as my school and it's optional. i think they still try cocaine too.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

We use pigs.

 

[cchoukal]

The particular lab the original poster describes is done on video at MN. That is, we watch a tape of someone from like 1973 doing the things to the dog the poster describes. We do, however, do some live intubation work on sheep in year 2, and I think the peds residents here practice intubation on rabbits, as well.

 

[Iron Horse]

Wow, I had no idea this was still used. We have no dogs, pigs, horses, or elephants, nor a video of the same.

In my post-bacc program we did the same with a frog, minus the cardiac massage, and in the end watched the heart continue to beat after removal to illustrate spontaneous contraction.

 

[DrZippy2b]

My undergrad phys course did this but with a rabbit. I was ok with the rabbit, but I don't know how I would feel about a dog.

 

[TysonCook]

At Cincinnati we did an online version, but not the real deal.

I would like to do it (the physio 🙂 ) with a rabbit, or pig, sheep, but definately not a dog. I just like dogs way too much.

Well, maybe a mean rabid dog, that was shaved and ugly...

 

[Stitch]

Thank you guys so much for your comments. We were pretty much told that over half of schools still use the lab, and that the ones that don't have stopped more for political reasons than anything else. I didn't know that pigs were used though, and the video of someone else doing it has been brought up as an option here. I'm not sure I'd be able to do it on rabbits, since I have pet rabbits that live in my apartment. hehe.

 

[DoubleDoctor]

As you can probably tell from my Avatar, I am a "dog" person. I could probably attend this demonstration if they used any other animal, but definately not a dog. In fact, I would do everything in my power to change the policies so that they never did that lab again.

 

[mikegoal]

at upstate we also have a video from when they used to do it in the 70's

 

[tBw]

I saw an "info session" about this recently from doctors who believed it was unnecessary and not particularly educational. Obviously they had their own agenda but they also made some good points. They said only about 1/3rd of schools still use "dog lab", more often state schools, most of the big name private schools having stopped. Different animals are occasionally used but also animals are used for different subjects ie some schools have dog lab but only use it as part of pharmacology, whereas some schools have dog lab as part of several different lab experiences...

 

[TaylorS8008]

I was curious about this myself and did some looking.

This a list of schools who use live animal labs:

http://www.pcrm.org/issues/Ethics_in_Medical_Research/ethics_medlab_list.html

This is a list of schools who do not use live animal labs:

http://www.pcrm.org/issues/Ethics_in_Medical_Research/ethics_med_list.html

Does anyone know if Louisiana State University in New Orleans still uses the labs? They went to a new curriculum two years ago and I think this list may be a couple of years old.

 

[TaylorS8008]

For some reason those links are not working if you click on them. But if you copy and paste the URL you can pull it up.

 

[A&W]

The medical school I attend incorporates dog, rat, and frog lab, one animal for each four student station in our physiology course. I will not be participating in any of these labs for personal reasons. This will not affect my grade in the class because nearly all of the data can be obtained after the lab.
My issue is that students who opt to not participate are not given a clear protocol for not participating. I had to get that information on my own. Furthermore, during my interview at my school I specifically asked if there were dog labs and I was told there were none. I love my medical school, don't get me wrong.But I believe that clear communication regarding this sort of curriculum would be better.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by @imtiaz
we did the cardiovascular lab with pigs. i thought it was a great learning experience.

I am curious what you REALLY learned from participating in vivisection? Is there any information provided that is not taught in a normal classroom setting? Several people mentioned that they considered it to be a great learning experience, and I was wondering why... Did you not really think that epinephrine injected into a vein caused the heart rate to increase, or did you not believe that the lungs actually do inflate and deflate? What difference does actually viewing the results on an animal make?

 

[Dodge This]

We have no experiments with live animals. We also don't have computer simulations. All of the sudden, I'm not feeling very strong in physiology.

Links fixed from previous poster:

Animal labs

No animal labs

 

[imtiaz]

Originally posted by Kirk
I am curious what you REALLY learned from participating in vivisection? Is there any information provided that is not taught in a normal classroom setting? Several people mentioned that they considered it to be a great learning experience, and I was wondering why... Did you not really think that epinephrine injected into a vein caused the heart rate to increase, or did you not believe that the lungs actually do inflate and deflate? What difference does actually viewing the results on an animal make?

you dont just watch, you DO it. you insert the IV, you inject the drugs, you do the bilateral vagectomy, etc. all the results are not as expected (reflex bradycardia, etc) so its interesting to see how a physiological system responds to stimuli in real life. also, not everything works like a textbook case. in our particular animal, it was impossible to illicit the carotid body response for some reason. it sticks in your head better when you see it live and in person. reading it in a book cant compare, in my opinion. im sure its doable, and had my school chose to do it that way i wouldnt object. but i dont see anything wrong with the way its done now either.

 

[DOnut]

Originally posted by @imtiaz
you dont just watch, you DO it. you insert the IV, you inject the drugs, you do the bilateral vagectomy, etc. all the results are not as expected (reflex bradycardia, etc) so its interesting to see how a physiological system responds to stimuli in real life. also, not everything works like a textbook case. in our particular animal, it was impossible to illicit the carotid body response for some reason. it sticks in your head better when you see it live and in person. reading it in a book cant compare, in my opinion. im sure its doable, and had my school chose to do it that way i wouldnt object. but i dont see anything wrong with the way its done now either.

Wow, we watched the video from the late 70's or something like that. For those who have seen it remember, "burn baby burn" during stimulation of the left vagus.

This is the exact reason why many people would not go to the actual live lab. I think it's just cruel......especially when a dog is used.

I think the video is very effective. 1 dog that died many years ago used to teach thousands of medical students throughout the country.

 

[Gilbert]

As the owner of two dogs I find it disheartening that the use of dog labs still takes place in medical school settings. Surely over the course of the average physician?s 7+ years of medical training he/she can find adequate ways to make up for any shortcomings that may exist with regard to knowledge content and skill refinement that the use of physiological computer simulations/videos may result in so this rather cruel and sick practice of using mans? best friend as a learning tool can be put to rest.

 

[A&W]

I actually had someone tell me because I won't participate in the dog lab I will never be as good of a physician as those students who do participate. I don't really appreciate being told by other people what kind of a physician I'll be just because I wish to not participate in an activity which I object to based on my religious and personal beliefs and based on the way I interpret the law and the Hippocratic oath.
That person's statement to me bordered on slander. I really had to bite my tongue to her to be as gracious as possible in my response to her.

 

[owen_osh]

I'm not attending medical school yet. Still, I always heard that the dogs used for these labs were taken from the pound where they would have been destroyed any way. If this is true what difference does it make?

 

[Dodge This]

Originally posted by Stitch
Please do NOT turn this into an ethical debate.

So much for that wishful thinking... I forsee the demise of this thread now that moral outrage has been expressed and challanged.

 

[firebreather3]

Originally posted by Dodge This
So much for that wishful thinking... I forsee the demise of this thread now that moral outrage has been expressed and challanged.

The height of stupidity to think it was going to turn out to be anything else.

 

[Emcat]

Somebody asked if LSU-NO still does the labs and yes, we do. It's in physiology, 2nd semester of the 1st year. We're in lab groups of ~4 people each (170 total students) and each group gets a dog. There are 3 of these labs over the semester.

I'm choosing not to participate for various reasons, however the vast majority of my classmates are doing the lab. Those of us who opted out have other work to do instead. Although the students all seem to respect my decision to opt out, the professor did sort of give us a hard time. He insisted we'll have 'deficits' when we reach our clinical years. 🙄 From what I gather talking to older students, this lab will probably not be continued once this particular prof retires (which should be soon...).

 

[imtiaz]

i dont object to the lab, but we too are trying to do what harvard has done which is going into the OR and watching anesthetists use the same drugs that we use only in real people. since the patients are hooked up to monitors you can see whats going on that way and in a more controlled manner, and more clinically relevant manner. id much rather do something like that then work on an animal, but i only had the choice of working with an animal or reading a book, and between those two i picked working with the animal. anything hands on is good. it is true that the dogs used were going to be euthanized anyway.

 

[Stitch]

actually this hasn't degenerated too badly, thankfully. I appreciate eveyone's thoughts. Taylor, those links are very helpful, and I'll probably pass them along to the first years at my school for their own info.
I also think that getting students to view more surgeries is a great idea.
Owen, I don't belive that the dogs are taken from the pound although maybe some are. There is a small percentage of dogs sold to research labs across the country (mainly physiology). I think it's illegal to sell them in NY, so our department buys them from Pennsylvania.

 

[womansurg]

We have a dog lab here used for both research and for education. The dogs are obtained from the pound, and are supposed to animals which are slated for euthanasia because their time has run out.

True story: when I was working in the lab doing research on rats (hard enough, in my book...), I wandered into the locked dog kennels and started playing with the dogs. There was this one amazing, sweet, smart mixed breed female pup who I just fell in love with. My own dog was 17 years old at the time, so I could entertain the idea of bringing home another one. I went upstairs, found the lab director, and then spent the next 45 minutes convincing her that I really wanted this dog, that I wasn't just reacting emotionally because I knew she was going to die otherwise, that I intended to keep her permanently, that I was able to keep her permanently, so forth. She finally consented, and I ran downstairs to claim her.

When I opened the door to her cage and called her, she looked at me unsteadily, and then sort of staggered over to me. The vet tech told me she had just administered the lethal dose of medication in preparation for the organ harvest they were about to perform. 🙁 🙁 🙁

 

[souljah1]

We don't have any labs that involve any vivisections at all. I don't really see the point and kind of agree with the above poster. Seeing physiology in action is fascinating, but it isn't necessary in order to understand physiology. When we get to the wards and begin clerkships, or when we shadow surgeons, etc..we will see physiology in action. You can go watch a cardiothoracic surgery if you want to get a better understanding of cardiovascular physiology. The whole idea of cutting open a dog in order to see the effects of epinephrine, kcl on arrythmias, etc seems to be not at all clinically relevant in medicine and seems pretty primitive as far as medical education is concerned. I am actually really surprised that so many schools still include this in their curricula. UCSF doesn't have vivisection in any of their curricula. The only 'bodily exposure' we get to understand physiology is the relevant anatomy, gross pathology specimens, and histological preparations. That is all you need, and it is all you will be exposed to when you start practicing medicine. I am very confident that my classmates and I are learning physiology extremely well without vivisections.

I know you didn't want to turn this into a debate, but I am just really surprised that so many schools still do this. We learn that so much of good medicine is empathy and I think that having to watch or participate in something like a vivisection would conflict with that.

 

[Stitch]

Originally posted by womansurg

When I opened the door to her cage and called her, she looked at me unsteadily, and then sort of staggered over to me. The vet tech told me she had just administered the lethal dose of medication in preparation for the organ harvest they were about to perform. 🙁 🙁 🙁

That's absolutely heartbreaking!! 🙁 🙁

 

[Adcadet]

Originally posted by cchoukal
The particular lab the original poster describes is done on video at MN. That is, we watch a tape of someone from like 1973 doing the things to the dog the poster describes. We do, however, do some live intubation work on sheep in year 2, and I think the peds residents here practice intubation on rabbits, as well.

I know U of MN students, 4th years only I think, do ER procedures at HCMC on a deeply anesthetized sheep that ultimately involves the death of the animal. I know, as I got to watch one day.

 

[MSTP boy]

womansurg - 🙁 how awful

 

[lola]

Originally posted by womansurg


When I opened the door to her cage and called her, she looked at me unsteadily, and then sort of staggered over to me. The vet tech told me she had just administered the lethal dose of medication in preparation for the organ harvest they were about to perform. 🙁 🙁 🙁

🙁 🙁 🙁 is right 🙁

that is so terrible... i feel like crying.

 

[gwyn779]

At UVA they do an optional dog lab for surgery (not phys) and we've been having a raging email debate among the enitre school. And here they breed the dogs for the lab and don't get them from the pound. In this raging debate, I have heard numerous opinions from both sides, but I believe there is a better solution (computers, videos, surgery dummies...)

 

[puffy1]

I participated in dog-labs, and while I learned some things, those who didn't participate didn't miss out on a whole lot, and thusly won't suffer from any future deficit in the clinical years.