Physiology Surgery!

[ckd816]

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So I just have to share that I got to do surgery on a rabbit in my physiology lab and it was the most exhilarating experience EVER! It was to look at the effects of certain things on the cardiac physiology of the bunny so we had to go isolate the jugular, carotid, the vagus nerve and the trachea... I was really nervous since I had never done anything on a live animal like that before and it was so much cooler than observing surgeries. I know it's not exactly the same since it was a terminal surgery, but it was pretty much awesome! I just had to share because there are honestly some days when I have doubts about whether or not I'm choosing the right path but it was one of those experiences that just leaves me with no doubt that this is what I need to be doing. 😍 Plus I never thought I would be interested in the competitive surgery world of veterinary medicine, but of course now I feel like it is definitely something to think about!

The funny thing is that I ended up feeling super confident after that lab only to have a dream that night where I was only good for organizing the bookshelf at the clinic where I used to work! 🙁 Oh, dreams...

 

[BlacKAT33]

congrats!! thats so awesome! i also love the feeling i get when i do surgery in my lab. the body is an amazing thing

 

[rileyroo]

what an awesome experience, i'm jealous!!

 

[Chapelle]

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[ckd816]

Sounds like a total waste of a rabbit to me, sorry...

I would have agreed with you prior to taking this class. Actually, I thought I would really have a hard time with being okay with terminal surgeries at the beginning of the course. I honestly don't see how it's any better than cutting into something that has been killed beforehand. The rabbit did serve a purpose... I learned a lot about anatomy and could see the effects of several drugs in real time. It had been anesthetized obviously, so the rabbit never suffered and it was euthanized humanely. Plus I know some vet schools do terminal surgeries-- Oklahoma and Oregon off the top of my head and maybe more I think. Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[BlacKAT33]

Sounds like a total waste of a rabbit to me, sorry...

👎
and you've never had animals used in class for dissection? the learning process has to start somewhere

 

[BlacKAT33]

I would have agreed with you prior to taking this class. Actually, I thought I would really have a hard time with being okay with terminal surgeries at the beginning of the course. I honestly don't see how it's any better than cutting into something that has been killed beforehand. The rabbit did serve a purpose... I learned a lot about anatomy and could see the effects of several drugs in real time. It had been anesthetized obviously, so the rabbit never suffered and it was euthanized humanely. Plus I know some vet schools do terminal surgeries-- Oklahoma and Oregon off the top of my head and maybe more I think. Correct me if I'm wrong!

seeing the effects of the drugs is really cool, we do a lot of terminal surgeries on our mice in my lab and i have learned so many more things because of these. at first i was uncomfortable, but once i realized they are always anesthetized well it made me feel more at ease. IMO, there really is another level of depth to what you can learn

 

[Chapelle]

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[twelvetigers]

Plus I know some vet schools do terminal surgeries-- Oklahoma and Oregon off the top of my head and maybe more I think.

Not at OKSU anymore. This year's the first year without. There was a big stink over it.

I'm sure other schools still have them, at least in some elective courses. They seem to be being phased out overall, though...

 

[thereservoirdog]

I think highschool/undergrad dissections are pointless. Save them for med/vet school where more than 1% of the students will actually get something out of it. And I've never heard of terminal surgeries being done in undergrad, I'd be worried about the professor being able to adequately keep them down. It's hard enough with one patient in a veterinary clinic.

 

[sunshinevet]

It's just MHO that a day playing with cardiac physiology is not worth killing a rabbit for. It's certainly not inhumane but I suppose it just depends on how much worth you place on the life of a rabbit v. your learning experience in lab.

Its more how much worth you place on the life of one rabbit vs how much worth you place on doing research that could save thousands of animals and peoples lives. Their "playing" was research. I would love us to have some more cardiac meds, wouldn't you? And I'm sure every person here understands the weight of what happened, and is thankful that we have the opportunity to do live animal research to further our knowledge.

 

[variegata]

Our animal physio lab didn't use any live animals or any rabbits, but we dissected several frogs and a rat during the quarter. I learned so much more about physiology and the effects of drugs on the various systems than I ever could have through lectures or books. I makes a huge difference doing things hands-on. As for the "source" thing--the rabbit was likely bred for the purpose, which sounds terrible, but it provides such an immense increase in the quality of education that I think it's a worthy sacrifice. If the rabbit was anything like the frogs at my school, it lived a comfortable life until its time came and it didn't feel any of the "playing" that occurred after that time. It served its purpose and was treated humanely.

 

[HopefulAg]

I think highschool/undergrad dissections are pointless. Save them for med/vet school where more than 1% of the students will actually get something out of it.

No way! It's the high school dissection that helped cultivate my interest in the field. And my undergrad dissection of a dog was very beneficial in learning anatomy, whether you're going to go into vet med or not.




Anyhow, we never did it on a rabbit but our prof did do it on a turtle and have the 'surgery' projected on the over head. He showed various chemical's effects on the heart, then killed the turtle and brought it back with epi, then killed the turtle again and cut out the heart with which he stimulated back to 'life' for a short time with epi again (I think, I don't remember what all he used).

 

[sunshinevet]

Oh my bad! I thought this was a research lab! I support terminal surgery for the teaching of surgery/CPR etc to veterinary students, but I don't feel this kind of thing is nessecerry for the teaching of physiology! In fact, I'm surprised the animal ethics committee allows it - it certainly would not be allowed here at murdoch when there are so many simulations that provide exactly the same information. Why couldn't you just use one of those? Provides exactly the same information, just not inside a bunny!

 

[BlacKAT33]

I have, in anatomy class in college (I refused to dissect in high school because I didn't agree with the sourcing of the cadavers and the little time given to work on them).

But the cat I spent an entire semester dissecting in anatomy was sourced from a shelter, it was going to be euthanized anyway. That rabbit though was likely purchased and killed solely for the purpose of the terminal "surgery." At least at my school that's what they do with rats for physio lab. I would be ok with doing a terminal lab on a rabbit that was about to be euthanized anyway for whatever legit reason (no room at shelter, end of experiment, etc.). It's just MHO that a day playing with cardiac physiology is not worth killing a rabbit for. It's certainly not inhumane but I suppose it just depends on how much worth you place on the life of a rabbit v. your learning experience in lab.

How do you think we do our research? Save rats that are going to be euthanized from a shelter? We breed millions of rats and mice for the sole purpose of doing research and making breakthroughs on various drugs or diseases. It sounds more like you value the life of a rabbit more than a rat (because they are cuter? ). Rats are also extremely emotional and have a huge personality, they are basically like cats (some are even the same size). They make great pets if people werent so scared of them.

My undergrad used rats in physio lab and everyone who did it thought it was an amazing experience. Everyone was thankful for the opportunity. the class was very popular because the prof was extremely intelligent and everyone learned more than ever expected.

At my highschool we dissected a fetal pig, mink, pigeon, and other various animals. No one took it forgranted and it was this experience that made me want to go into biology for undergrad.

 

[bunnity]

I bet the responses on here would be very different if this was a dog we were talking about.

Emotions aside, the IACUC differentiates animals into lower and higher in terms of what use is appropriate. A lower animal must be used unless a higher animal can be justified. Rabbits have their own category above rats and below cats and dogs (which are below primates). I don't see how a rabbit is justified in this situation, honestly. There are lots of lower animals on the list that would have served the teaching purpose more than adequately. I've taken an IACUC training class and they are very clear about minimizing animal use, and higher vs lower animal use, and the numbers of animals used, to the absolutely necessary.

I think when we're talking terminal surgery or cadaver use ESPECIALLY with purpose bred animals we have to ask, "Is there any other way we can do this with the same benefits?" For research the answer is often no. For grad-level anatomy and surgery the answer is often no. For an undergrad class, I think the answer is usually yes, especially with "higher" animals.

I know the OP didn't state if the rabbit was purpose bred (and I'm not criticizing the OP, just philosophizing here), but there are way too many bunnies in the world. They get dumped on the street and euthanized in shelters just like dogs and cats. I totally understand that research animals often need to be purpose bred, but for the sake of dissection or terminal surgery in this type of situation I feel very strongly that there is no need to add more animals to the world just for the purpose of practicing surgery on them. Why not use the opportunity to peacefully end a shelter animal's life and take at least the cost of the euthasol off the shelter's hands? And again I'm not blaming anyone here and I understand that there can be issues with laws, politics, the public when using shelter animals, but it is so important to think these things over before just using an animal.

 

[sunshinevet]

I honestly find it surprising that undergrad physiology used a live dissection in its teaching. Yes, its fascinating - but it can be learnt through other means. In my entire year of veterinary physiology, not once did we cut into an animal - and I don't think my physiology is worse off for it. There are so many computer simulations, so many other ways of teaching it, even having just one bunny done like that and making a video for the class to watch - all would have decreased the amount of animals needed to be sacrificed. I'm sure we all accept and understand that in the course of our veterinary education, some animals will need to be sacrificed for our learning, but I feel we can be very choosy about when it is absolutely nessercerry. And I hope we all agree that the loss of animal life to enable our learning should be minimized as much as possible.

 

[ckd816]

Let me just start out with the fact that I agree that terminal surgeries should be done as little as possible. I am a little conflicted by that statement though since this surgery was easily one of the coolest things I've gotten to do.

I really like the idea of getting the animals from shelters or wherever if they were to be euthanized anyway. I wish that were the case, but like many of you suspected the bunny I used was bred for these purposes. That is something I do regret about the experience, but I am still thankful for being able to do it. I'm not some crazed psycho who gets off on killing rabbits... If I could have done the experiment and fixed the rabbit at the end I would have loved to take him home with me. I think that a live bunny at the end of the experiment is the outcome everyone would prefer. The university system isn't as friendly as everyone would like though. I decided to figure out exactly how many rabbits were killed from this experiment, and there were 5 from my lab section. Since there are 6 sections total, 30 were likely sacrificed. This seems like way too many, especially since we do another surgery with rabbits later on where we will use 4 per lab... This would probably bring the death toll up to 54 per semester, which is pretty ridiculous.

I hate to have a defeatist attitude, but I really don't think there is much I can do to change the protocols of the university. If I could somehow get them to get animals from shelters or something like that I would love to improve the situation, but I feel like they would laugh at me and disregard anything I do. They already have a video of the surgery that we did, but my TA couldn't even get it to work so we never got to see the whole thing... Plus the video doesn't really solve any problems with reducing bunny deaths since they have us do it anyway. I go to the largest public university in the US, so we are hardly flying under the radar and I doubt any major rules are being broken. I actually found an article about this very thing because I guess PETA was raising hell over this class in particular, so my school responded and there are mentions of IACUC and AVMA guidelines. I have actually been through some IACUC training for my research work, but I didn't have to do anything for this class. Here is the link to the justification by the university: http://asunews.asu.edu/20090928_petaresponse

I really didn't want my story to bring up a whole debate about terminal surgeries or attempt to justify them in any way, but I agree that valid points have been brought up. I honestly did take a ton more away from it though versus a standard dissection and I was just excited about the experience. If that makes me a terrible person, so be it.

 

[Shanomong]

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[Shanomong]

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[Chapelle]

I hate to have a defeatist attitude, but I really don't think there is much I can do to change the protocols of the university. If I could somehow get them to get animals from shelters or something like that I would love to improve the situation, but I feel like they would laugh at me and disregard anything I do.

I think if you do feel strongly about this you could talk to your professor and work together to contact some other professors who do research in rabbits and see if they can provide rabbits already used for other purposes. Same goes for any other animals your school may use for these kinds of labs. Even if you do not get all the animals needed for lab in this way, at least you will be able to reduce the number of animals used (3Rs!)

It's certainly worth a try, and you have nothing to lose. You could even wait until the class is over if you are afraid of jeopardizing your grade. You could also bring up the issue with the university veterinarian who would probably be eager to help and would not laugh at you. If you succeeded, it would be a great accomplishment you could write about in your vet apps.

BTW, sourcing from the shelter may be more difficult.

 

[Chapelle]

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[BlacKAT33]

I don't value the life of a rabbit over a rat. I've had a pet rat too, they're great.

I just think there is a difference between breeding animals for research and breeding them for a 2-hour exercise in an undergraduate course (whether they are used alive or as a cadaver) in which they are replaceable by videos, simulations, etc. (we used virtual worms and squid neurons in cell bio) The former is necessary, the latter I don't think so. The lab helps illustrate a lecture concept but I don't think you can really even call it "surgery" practice. It's just a dissection on a live animal and in this case way too many animals.

yes the school did use many animals, they also have more labs than my undergrad school. i think ours only had 2 sections so first come first serve for people wanting to sign up for the class

 

[PigsRock]

My Anatomy & Physiology lab did a lab a couple weeks ago where we put a catheter in the brachial vein of chickens. The professor said they used to do injections but the lab time was over by the time most people got the catheters in, so we just did the catheters. Those chickens were killed afterwards, but they were leghorns left over from research and would have been killed anyway. They used some of the dead ones for another class later that day.

Last week we injected sheep blood into some more chickens so we can look at the immune response this week. I do think it is helpful to have live animals, but it's nice to know the chickens would've been killed whether we used them or not.

 

[twelvetigers]

You guys sound like you all had neat physiology labs. Ours was computer simulations... and I recall having to drink salt water (THAT was fun) and shocking myself (a reflex thing)... so aside from the freshly killed rats for dissection, it was pretty bland.

 

[DVMDream]

Our lab used live frogs. We got to look at the heart and add different drugs to the heart to see the effects it had on the heart. The heart was actually pierced and attached to a motor sensor so we could measure the frequency of the heart beats and the strength of the heart beats. (It is really hard to pierce a beating heart). We also got to remove the large sciatic nerve in the leg and then sent electrical current through the nerve to simulate an action potential on the computer. Then, we also did an experiment where we hooked up the muscle of the leg and measured muscle contraction. It was a really cool lab and I got a lot out of it. The frogs were all brain dead when the experiments were performed.

 

[rugbychick16]

I honestly find it surprising that undergrad physiology used a live dissection in its teaching. Yes, its fascinating - but it can be learnt through other means. In my entire year of veterinary physiology, not once did we cut into an animal - and I don't think my physiology is worse off for it.

Same here. I had no idea some undergrad phys labs would do terminal surgeries. And we didn't cut into/use dead animals in a year of physiology in vet school either. I'm not against it, I'm just suprised that vet schools are so against it if its so commmonplace at undergraduate institutions

 

[BlacKAT33]

I honestly find it surprising that undergrad physiology used a live dissection in its teaching. Yes, its fascinating - but it can be learnt through other means. In my entire year of veterinary physiology, not once did we cut into an animal - and I don't think my physiology is worse off for it.

Same here. I had no idea some undergrad phys labs would do terminal surgeries. And we didn't cut into/use dead animals in a year of physiology in vet school either. I'm not against it, I'm just suprised that vet schools are so against it if its so commmonplace at undergraduate institutions

I am also surprised most vet schools have stopped it over the years. since im in the research field ive done terminal surgeries in all the labs ive worked in. i thought it was a common thing for both research and vet school courses for practice/learning. i haven't been bothered by them because it is always strictly regulated by the IACUC and the animals never experience pain. But i guess if PETA knew they would bring up law suits immediately. maybe this is why the vet schools have stopped most of the surgeries (because the procedures became more publicly known)? i guess its good to know ahead of time that i wont be working on many live animals for surgery practice in vet school.

 

[sunshinevet]

I think the use of live animals to teach surgery to vet students is important - nothing bleeds quite like live flesh - but I do feel it is entirely unwarranted to teach undergrad physiology. I think it should be less about whats legal, and more about striving to reduce the amount of animals killed for our education, especially when there are so many other alternatives avaliable. At our school, all use of animals must be approved by the animal ethics commitee, and we have to prove that there is no viable alternative to using them, and steps have been taken to assure that the absolute minimum number of animals possible are being used. These labs would never make it past our animal ethics commitee, and, I feel, rightly so.

Animals used for research are a whole different kettle of fish.