PI switched me to third author w/o telling me

[JoshuaGuit]

Hi,

My first manuscript publication showed up in the journal today after 3 months of editing back and forth. Originally I was second author, however the first author and I had some sort of "falling out", and now I'm third author on the paper. I wasn't told this, and was given a citation of the original manuscript that I presented at med school interview last week. I feel relatively betrayed because of the amount of work that I put into the paper, but I essentially have no options because it has already been published and I do not want my letter of recommendation from this professor tarnished.

What is the most delicate way I can present this to the admissions committee from my last interview so they do not interpret it as being deceitful about the manuscript author order?

Thank you

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[Ismet]

I don't think it's that big of a deal. If you do feel like you need to report it to the admissions committee, don't talk about the falling out, just say that the final manuscript ended up slightly different from the original.

 

[Antivirus]

I wouldnt bring it up unless they ask, and if they do I would do what the above poster already said.

Doubt they will even notice.

 

[mwall003]

I would agree with Ismet. Second to third author (although relatively important to you and I) would not be viewed that much of a difference by the admissions committee, or at least not enough to bring it up to a school and explain why. However, if you were being bumped from first-authorship that would be a different story.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

i would not worry about it at all, going form 2nd to 3rd author is pretty much a dont care. seriously, do not make this into anything more than nothing, i woudln't even mention it. take a deep breath and move onto medical school. good luck.

 

[appleman123]

dude, unless all authors sign the agreement with the publisher, it cant get published.

did you sign the agreement?

 

[JoshuaGuit]

dude, unless all authors sign the agreement with the publisher, it cant get published.

did you sign the agreement?

What difference does it make?

 

[galaxyx]

dude, unless all authors sign the agreement with the publisher, it cant get published.

did you sign the agreement?

Not true... I've been published in journals without even knowing. Basically abstracts that I worked on in college got turned into full papers after I graduated. When I did a search for the abstracts google turned up the full length paper

 

[sinombre]

Yeah, as long as you weren't switched from first author, I really don't think it matters at all. You have a publication (which will stay on your CV forever)... I'd be pretty happy if I were you.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Hi,

My first manuscript publication showed up in the journal today after 3 months of editing back and forth. Originally I was second author, however the first author and I had some sort of "falling out", and now I'm third author on the paper. I wasn't told this, and was given a citation of the original manuscript that I presented at med school interview last week. I feel relatively betrayed because of the amount of work that I put into the paper, but I essentially have no options because it has already been published and I do not want my letter of recommendation from this professor tarnished.

What is the most delicate way I can present this to the admissions committee from my last interview so they do not interpret it as being deceitful about the manuscript author order?

Thank you

It's the senior author's prerogative to assign people the authorship most representative of their intellectual contribution (which does not necessarily mean the amount of effort). I'd be interested in hearing about the falling out, but unless it is really extreme you really don't have any ground to stand on. It might seem like it was the falling out that caused this, but it may not be that at all. For example, maybe the PI/senior author saw the list and made a judgement call that someone deserved to be 2nd author more than you. On rare occasion I have also had senior authors, typically listed last, put themselves first which causes a bump of everyone else. We would need more data to really provide you with personalized advice, but going to war over it is unlikely to change the authorship and could have repercussions if you aren't in the right.

I also again want to emphasize that authorship is not proportional to pure hours put in. It has to do with intellectual contribution and ownership. It is a very frustrating thing for people at first often, but authorship isn't just a reward for effort it is also a statement of responsibility for the material and assurance of quality. Who deserves credit more, the guy who had the idea or the guy who made it happen? It is a tough call sometimes.

 

[Ichiban88]

It hurts a lot now but in a few weeks you will feel better. I've been in this situation before. I almost thought about leaving the lab at one point but I am glad I didn't. politics...

Yea I won't mention it unless you are contacted about this (which I doubt you will be).
Congrats on the pub either way!

 

[JoshuaGuit]

It's the senior author's prerogative to assign people the authorship most representative of their intellectual contribution (which does not necessarily mean the amount of effort). I'd be interested in hearing about the falling out, but unless it is really extreme you really don't have any ground to stand on. It might seem like it was the falling out that caused this, but it may not be that at all. For example, maybe the PI/senior author saw the list and made a judgement call that someone deserved to be 2nd author more than you. On rare occasion I have also had senior authors, typically listed last, put themselves first which causes a bump of everyone else. We would need more data to really provide you with personalized advice, but going to war over it is unlikely to change the authorship and could have repercussions if you aren't in the right.

I also again want to emphasize that authorship is not proportional to pure hours put in. It has to do with intellectual contribution and ownership. It is a very frustrating thing for people at first often, but authorship isn't just a reward for effort it is also a statement of responsibility for the material and assurance of quality. Who deserves credit more, the guy who had the idea or the guy who made it happen? It is a tough call sometimes.

Honestly I'm not really that bent out of shape over it. I was originally promised second author, was put as third author, made an issue out of it with the PI, was put back on as second author because he agreed with me, and now when it's finally published I'm third author.

I'm more just concerned about being seen as deceitful by admissions committees, because I told them I would update them when the paper was accepted. I think I'll go with the common thought in this thread and say a small change was made at the end, and give them the formal citation.

All's good, I'm just not extremely happy with my lab at the moment.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Honestly I'm not really that bent out of shape over it. I was originally promised second author, was put as third author, made an issue out of it with the PI, was put back on as second author because he agreed with me, and now when it's finally published I'm third author.

I'm more just concerned about being seen as deceitful by admissions committees, because I told them I would update them when the paper was accepted. I think I'll go with the common thought in this thread and say a small change was made at the end, and give them the formal citation.

All's good, I'm just not extremely happy with my lab at the moment.

PIs can be the most evil and passive-aggresive people you ever have to deal with in life. Having any publication at all is worth something and there's really no difference between second or third author.

If you want to hear about evil PIs who sleep with their students I could tell you some stories.

 

[EnergyDrink]

"Second author" does not literally mean the second author listed. It means you're not a primary author. You're still a second author, even if you're listed third.

 

[mmmcdowe]

"Second author" does not literally mean the second author listed. It means you're not a primary author. You're still a second author, even if you're listed third.

That may be true in some circles, but in the ones that I run in 2nd author means second listed unless a caveat says otherwise. 3rd is 3rd.

 

[linebacker57]

"Second author" does not literally mean the second author listed. It means you're not a primary author. You're still a second author, even if you're listed third.

+1
I've talked to a lot of people who do academic medicine, if you contribute to a paper, you are either 1st, 2nd or last author. Assuming ur and undergrad, having your name on anything published is still a big deal, take your 2nd authorship, move on, and tell medical schools about your 2nd authorship.

 

[JJMrK]

"Second author" does not literally mean the second author listed. It means you're not a primary author. You're still a second author, even if you're listed third.

Depends on the journal, in many the order listed reflects the degree of contribution (except for final position or two which may be senior author/co-authors).

This isn't a big deal. I agree with most of what's been said; don't bring it up, update them with the paper and move on. TBH even the providing an update about the paper isn't that big of a deal, and I can't see anyone even noticing the difference in authorship.