Picking a DO school for being P/F?

[submarinegunner]

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Im trying to decide between 3 DO schools. The school I want to go to in NY is about 15k more expensive than the other 2 schools in VA, but it is P/F which I feel takes a heavy weight off my shoulders. The way I look at it, it looks much better on my transcript to have all P's than C's and B's when it comes to residency applications. I feel like being P/F lets me spend more time on boards and less time about doing well in BS OMT classes cuz there will be a grade on my transcript for it. I know step scores are the most important factor but is the P/F a strong enough reason to pick one school over others?

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

There's no true P/F school unless that medical school is an Ivy school or Stanford.

 

[QueenJames]

There's no true P/F school unless that medical school is an Ivy school or Stanford.

Facts.

our school totes a "p/f" bull**** too but we have a GPA....? how the **** does that work?

 

[submarinegunner]

There's no true P/F school unless that medical school is an Ivy school or Stanford.

What do you mean? The school legit is P/F there is no numerical or letter grade on our transcripts.

 

[IntheClouds4ever]

If I had to apply again, my priorities would be:

1. cheap
2. no extraneous BS or overemphasis on OMT
3. no mandatory class

 

[submarinegunner]

If I had to apply again, my priorities would be:

1. cheap
2. no extraneous BS or overemphasis on OMT
3. no mandatory class

Also the only school with no mandatory classes. I feel like at a P/F school I don’t really need to give the time of day to performing well on OMT / Osteo classes. My other option Lake Erie is dirt cheap but mandatory classes & dresscode

 

[popopopop]

What do you mean? The school legit is P/F there is no numerical or letter grade on our transcripts.

What about quartile?

 

[MusicDOc124]

My other option Lake Erie is dirt cheap but mandatory classes & dresscode

Can't recommend going there. Not going to say not to, but I just cannot recommend it.

 

[submarinegunner]

Can't recommend going there. Not going to say not to, but I just cannot recommend it.

That has been a common consensus I have heard but I’m curious if that’s because of the distaste for dress code & mandatory classes or is there anything else I’m missing?

 

[MusicDOc124]

That has been a common consensus I have heard but I’m curious if that’s because of the distaste for dress code & mandatory classes or is there anything else I’m missing?

The administration. The mistreatment of students from certain people within the admin/various professors (profs at least at a particular campus).

 

[Goro]

There's no true P/F school unless that medical school is an Ivy school or Stanford.

This is not what I've heard. Can you clarify?

If you're ignorant of your grades/GPA/class rank, then it's P/F.

Internally, students will be ranked in one way or another. Otherwise, PDs would be even more ruthless in applying Board scores as a blunt instrument.

OP, If the reduction in stress is worth spending an extra $60, then it's worth it, isn't it? If you were my own kid, and I knew this about you, I'd say go for the P/F school, unless it was Touro-NY.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

This is not what I've heard. Can you clarify?

If you're ignorant of your grades/GPA/class rank, then it's P/F.

Internally, students will be ranked in one way or another. Otherwise, PDs would be even more ruthless in applying Board scores as a blunt instrument.

OP, If the reduction in stress is worth spending an extra $60, then it's worth it, isn't it? If you were my own kid, and I knew this about you, I'd say go for the P/F school, unless it was Touro-NY.

You just answered your own question. The reality is that all medical schools, especially the DOs, with the exception of the elite few that I had just mentioned all keep internal %, GPA, and class rank that would go on the MSPE despite having F/P/Honor on the student's transcript.

Honestly, it's better this way bc we do want the top elite few students of every schools to be recognized and given a chance to be looked at by PDs for top specialties instead of being lumped into the mediocre category.

Finally, there's no such thing as reduction in stress. I would argue that the stress level for DO students who are aware of the reality to be about 2x more than that of the regular MD student. Being a DO student who has to waste about 4-5 hrs/week during preclinical for OMM along with having to take both the COMLEX and the USMLE is really stressful, on top of having to prove your worth 24/7 all the way to March of 4th yr with 2-6 aways. That's just the reality right now.

 

[UnoMas]

None this this P/F, letter grade stuff matters. Pick the cheapest one that gives you lots of time outside of class to study for the one thing that MATTERS the most, the board exams. P/F schools with internal ranking are not true P/F school and the non-stress part is basically just 'ignorance is bliss' kind of mentality. You class rank will still be on your MSPE so gunners still gun for the highest pass. Your transcripts matter very little as long as it's not littered with F's and remediations.

There is a huge difference between the dude that passes with 69.5 consistently and the dude that passes with 95. So you'll have to study hard regardless of the grading system or where you go to school. Your goal is to learn everything that you can possibly learn in medical school so you'll make a good doctor not to just pass your class. In addition, you don't barely pass all of your classes and then magically turn up with a 260 after 4 weeks of intense studying.

Save the 60k (which most likely will balloon up into 100k by the time all is said and done) and go to the cheapest one that you can get into, including Lake Erie. A DO school is a DO school. I would take those 'consensus' with a bit of salt if I were you.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Im trying to decide between 3 DO schools. The school I want to go to in NY is about 15k more expensive than the other 2 schools in VA, but it is P/F which I feel takes a heavy weight off my shoulders. The way I look at it, it looks much better on my transcript to have all P's than C's and B's when it comes to residency applications. I feel like being P/F lets me spend more time on boards and less time about doing well in BS OMT classes cuz there will be a grade on my transcript for it. I know step scores are the most important factor but is the P/F a strong enough reason to pick one school over others?

Qualities that you should care about are:

1) Cost of attendance
2) Least amount of hours per week to OMM and clinical medicine
3) # of weeks for dedicated time

For (2) and (3), you really need to do some homework on the ground by taking to people who are attending that school. I'm not talking about the students that have been vetted by the school admin during your campus visit. I honestly think that the so called gunners of that school will give you the most realistic perspective of that place bc they're the one who are most aware of the reality and important things.

In the end, Step 1 and Step 2 will determine your fate in whatever specialty. Next will probably be quality of your LORs and your performance on aways.

 

[ciestar]

You just answered your own question. The reality is that all medical schools, especially the DOs, with the exception of the elite few that I had just mentioned all keep internal %, GPA, and class rank that would go on the MSPE despite having F/P/Honor on the student's transcript.

Honestly, it's better this way bc we do want the top elite few students of every schools to be recognized and given a chance to be looked at by PDs for top specialties instead of being lumped into the mediocre category.

Finally, there's no such thing as reduction in stress. I would argue that the stress level for DO students who are aware of the reality to be about 2x more than that of the regular MD student. Being a DO student who has to waste about 4-5 hrs/week during preclinical for OMM along with having to take both the COMLEX and the USMLE is really stressful, on top of having to prove your worth 24/7 all the way to March of 4th yr with 2-6 aways. That's just the reality right now.

I go to a school with an internal ranking and your class rank is never revealed to anyone and is not put on your MSPE. You know how top students are recognized? AOA. Yeah, this doesn’t apply to DO schools, but this tends to be the distinction top students get.

 

[UnoMas]

I go to a school with an internal ranking and your class rank is never revealed to anyone and is not put on your MSPE. You know how top students are recognized? AOA. Yeah, this doesn’t apply to DO schools, but this tends to be the distinction top students get.

Then outside of AOA, there will be an even bigger emphasis on your Step scores when it comes to residency application, without class rank and GPA. I'll play devil's advocate and say that the P/F system might give students that false sense of security and they understudy and underperform on their Board exams

 

[ciestar]

Then outside of AOA, there will be an even bigger emphasis on your Step scores when it comes to residency application, without class rank and GPA. I'll play devil's advocate and say that the P/F system might give students that false sense of security and they understudy and underperform on their Board exams

My school did just fine average-wise for step 1. NBME exams dont give you a false sense of security and my school requires you to take one early on.

Do some students get complacent and blow off things because of the safety net? Sure, but I hardly believe it is the norm as we’re not stupid and know how much boards do matter.

On the flip side, I have a friend at a score with a H/HP/P/F curriculum that threw EVERYTHING into getting honors in their classes and didn’t focus as much for board exams until dedicated. Scored way above average on COMLEX, underperfomed on Step 1.

End of the day, how YOU prepare for boards makes a lot more difference than what the school does. Choose the path that gives you the least amount of grief along the way.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

From an application evaluation side for residency, I can tell you that if a school is P/F and does not rank, I consider all those candidates to have the lowest quartile rank for application scoring purposes. Frankly, not ranking students and not giving actual grades does most of the students a disservice.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

From an application evaluation side for residency, I can tell you that if a school is P/F and does not rank, I consider all those candidates to have the lowest quartile rank for application scoring purposes. Frankly, not ranking students and not giving actual grades does most of the students a disservice.

Interesting, so how would you handle a school that only ranks the top quartile but still gives grades? How could you compare a 3.0 from one school to another?




Just FYI for other students, my school claims the no rank thing, but then they put magical graphs on the MSPE showing how your grade in a given class compares to the class average. My 'rank' won't be on that letter, but those graphs will be.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Interesting, so how would you handle a school that only ranks the top quartile but still gives grades? How could you compare a 3.0 from one school to another?




Just FYI for other students, my school claims the no rank thing, but then they put magical graphs on the MSPE showing how your grade in a given class compares to the class average. My 'rank' won't be on that letter, but those graphs will be.

I try and extrapolate data as best as possible. I try to look what quartile students fall in, though schools don't always provide that data. If absolutely no data is provided, it hurts the student unfortunately. Though to be honest, I weigh class rank and preclinical grades pretty low when scoring applications compared to the weight of SLOEs (EM's version of a LOR) anyways, so it's not that big of a deal. But if I had to choose between a school that grades/ranks vs a school that doesn't, unless I anticipated being near the bottom, I'd go with the school that grades.

 

[submarinegunner]

I try and extrapolate data as best as possible. I try to look what quartile students fall in, though schools don't always provide that data. If absolutely no data is provided, it hurts the student unfortunately. Though to be honest, I weigh class rank and preclinical grades pretty low when scoring applications compared to the weight of SLOEs (EM's version of a LOR) anyways, so it's not that big of a deal. But if I had to choose between a school that grades/ranks vs a school that doesn't, unless I anticipated being near the bottom, I'd go with the school that grades.

I’m curious however because most MD schools are pass/fail so would that really be a disservice? I feel a good 90% of schools in general are P/F so there really isn’t a way to compare them besides through step scores. GPA doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things so I feel a P/F school would lower the competition b/w students

 

[UnoMas]

I’m curious however because most MD schools are pass/fail so would that really be a disservice? I feel a good 90% of schools in general are P/F so there really isn’t a way to compare them besides through step scores. GPA doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things so I feel a P/F school would lower the competition b/w students

As a DO student, you have a lot working against you when it comes to applying to residency. MD schools, even the lowest of the low, can do thing like this and get away with it. If you are planning on doing something even remotely competitive, having a good class rank will help. The difference between the extremes in a DO class is huge. Making yourself more ambiguous within an already stigmatized subgroup of medical students (whether justified or not) is not doing yourself any favor. And trust me, even at P/F school, there will still be gunners. This is one of the biggest misconceptions premeds have. Save this post, come back and read in 3 years and venmo me $10.


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[chizledfrmstone]

Go to the cheapest school and treat it like P/F.

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

If I had to apply again, my priorities would be:

1. cheap
2. no extraneous BS or overemphasis on OMT
3. no mandatory class

#1 for sure

 

[submarinegunner]

L

As a DO student, you have a lot working against you when it comes to applying to residency. MD schools, even the lowest of the low, can do thing like this and get away with it. If you are planning on doing something even remotely competitive, having a good class rank will help. The difference between the extremes in a DO class is huge. Making yourself more ambiguous within an already stigmatized subgroup of medical students (whether justified or not) is not doing yourself any favor. And trust me, even at P/F school, there will still be gunners. This is one of the biggest misconceptions premeds have. Save this post, come back and read in 3 years and venmo me $10.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

This response heavily Explains why I have the urge to deny the DO And reapply MD. I just feel that I’m gonna have to go throughout my training in residency trying to prove myself being a minority in a sea of MDs. Both physically & mentally, I think MD would be a better bet in the long run. Thoughts? Is it worth it

 

[Scrubs101]

#1 for sure

This, but you have to be careful because some schools like mine claim to be no mandatory attendance. But depending on the block there can be a lot of classes with mandatory attendance and a lot with points for attendance.

Some weeks depending on the classes we’re currently in I spend more time in class watching lecture than at home watching lecture, which can be a slight annoyance.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

L





This response heavily Explains why I have the urge to deny the DO And reapply MD. I just feel that I’m gonna have to go throughout my training in residency trying to prove myself being a minority in a sea of MDs. Both physically & mentally, I think MD would be a better bet in the long run. Thoughts? Is it worth it

No, unless you're gunning for ortho/ophtho/derm. Otherwise, you're losing 200k+ of attending salary so you can have different letters behind your name. Obviously most of us would've chosen an MD school had we gotten accepted, but you shouldn't have bothered applying DO if you knew you would have issues taking it if it was your only acceptance.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

L





This response heavily Explains why I have the urge to deny the DO And reapply MD. I just feel that I’m gonna have to go throughout my training in residency trying to prove myself being a minority in a sea of MDs. Both physically & mentally, I think MD would be a better bet in the long run. Thoughts? Is it worth it

No, unless you're gunning for ortho/ophtho/derm. Otherwise, you're losing 200k+ of attending salary so you can have different letters behind your name. Obviously most of us would've chosen an MD school had we gotten accepted, but you shouldn't have bothered applying DO if you knew you would have issues taking it if it was your only acceptance.

OP we have told you this same exact statement in your other thread. Especially that the specialty you're hoping for aren't really that competitive. Just don't become a self hating DO at the end though.

Take DO school or reapply next cycle MD?

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[Goro]

I try and extrapolate data as best as possible. I try to look what quartile students fall in, though schools don't always provide that data. If absolutely no data is provided, it hurts the student unfortunately. Though to be honest, I weigh class rank and preclinical grades pretty low when scoring applications compared to the weight of SLOEs (EM's version of a LOR) anyways, so it's not that big of a deal. But if I had to choose between a school that grades/ranks vs a school that doesn't, unless I anticipated being near the bottom, I'd go with the school that grades.

Do you ever tell the clinical Deans at such schools that their grading policies were hurting their students in terms of matching. I have the sinking feeling that said Deans are oblivious to how things are seen from the other side.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

OP we have told you this same exact statement in your other thread. Especially that the specialty you're hoping for aren't really that competitive. Just don't become a self hating DO at the end though.

Take DO school or reapply next cycle MD?

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Didn't even realize this was the same person. Seriously, OP-- none of the specialties you are interested in are even competitive. But if you're going to spend the rest of your life whining about being a DO, give your spot to someone who actually wants it.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I’m curious however because most MD schools are pass/fail so would that really be a disservice? I feel a good 90% of schools in general are P/F so there really isn’t a way to compare them besides through step scores. GPA doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things so I feel a P/F school would lower the competition b/w students

I'm not sure that is true. While many schools don't have a GPA or letter grades, most allopathic schools have the Honors, HP, Pass, Fail grading system. And nearly every one ranks their candidates in quartiles for the MPSE.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Do you ever tell the clinical Deans at such schools that their grading policies were hurting their students in terms of matching. I have the sinking feeling that said Deans are oblivious to how things are seen from the other side.

I seriously doubt the deans of any school would consider for a second the opinion of some random clinical adjunct faculty's opinion on how they grade to be honest.

 

[Goro]

I seriously doubt the deans of any school would consider for a second the opinion of some random clinical adjunct faculty's opinion on how they grade to be honest.

🙁

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

OP we have told you this same exact statement in your other thread. Especially that the specialty you're hoping for aren't really that competitive. Just don't become a self hating DO at the end though.

Take DO school or reapply next cycle MD?

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Lol this. Those specialties aren’t really all that competitive. You’d be able to find a residency in any of those as a DO as long as you’re not a slacker. Rads is the most competitive one you listed and that is obtainable as a DO. Gotta work for it though. Also it’s way too soon for you to pick a specialty. I literally have changed my mind in every rotation. First EM —> psych/neuro—> peds—> now I’m 50/50 ob and EM. So way too soon for you to be making a decision before you’ve even taken a class/boards.

TL;DR: As long as you’re not an idiot or unlikeable, you’ll be fine.

 

[deleted707454]

lmao it didn't matter for me. I exclusively chose p/f schools when applying, because I think that's a good step forward in how medical education should be. I also am not the kind of person to be so petty over a few percentage points. Anyway, I showed up for orientation week and learned that they had changed from p/f to grades. Died inside a little.

BUT, I've gone on pretending its p/f and gotta say I am happy with my life.

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

Just weighing in real quick:

P/F or graded doesn’t matter - you will be ranked against your peers no matter what. Grades mean nothing. An A at one school with an easy curriculum might be a C at another school with a harder curriculum. You determine your own grading (do you just wanna pass or do you wanna excel in class?) So that shouldn’t hold any weight in your decision.

Secondly: yes less emphasis on OMT is nice but guess what? It’s on your board exams my friend (1/4 - 1/3 of your exam depending on who you ask. If you hit 260 on USMLE that’s great! But if you fail COMLEX then you aren’t allowed to graduate from a DO school.) Go in willing to learn. Whether you believe in it or plan on using it is irrelevant. Best get used to the taste of that bitter sweet OMT Kool-Aid early on if you wanna succeed. I’m not one of those people that is super into OMT either, I just see a class that most people punt and use it as an opportunity to easily set myself apart because OMT is easy AF if you at least pretend to take it seriously.




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[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

Well folks...this is an interesting conversation. What happened to the "grades don't matter" crowd ?

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

I'm not sure that is true. While many schools don't have a GPA or letter grades, most allopathic schools have the Honors, HP, Pass, Fail grading system. And nearly every one ranks their candidates in quartiles for the MPSE.

This is true but the students who attend DO schools are grouped into another category (those who weren't strong enough academically to get into an MD school). Those MD students who are in schools that have P/F have in a way "already made it" by virtue of getting in. Thus anything afterward is just a formality. It doesn't matter if an allopathic schools gave out stickers for good performance. They could do whatever they want and get away with it, still match into Harvard. A DO student on the other hand still has much to prove so letter grades may be helpful to those in the top. Not good for mental health though. There is no good answer to all of this.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

P/F or graded doesn’t matter - you will be ranked against your peers no matter what. Grades mean nothing. An A at one school with an easy curriculum might be a C at another school with a harder curriculum. You determine your own grading (do you just wanna pass or do you wanna excel in class?) So that shouldn’t hold any weight in your decision.

I guess I should clarify, when I say I prefer it when students go to a school that grades, I don't necessarily mean they get a percentage grade for each class or a letter grade. Ideally, every med school would be on the same standardized grading system, and the most frequently utilized is the Hon / HP / Pass / Fail system that most allopathic schools use. What I meant by some schools don't grade / rank is, there are some schools out there that are truly just P/F and they don't tell you even what quartile their students fall into. I don't need to know exactly what number a student in their class is, but its helpful to know if they are in the top 25%, the bottom 25%, or somewhere in the middle.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

This is true but the students who attend DO schools are grouped into another category (those who weren't strong enough academically to get into an MD school). Those MD students who are in schools that have P/F have in a way "already made it" by virtue of getting in. Thus anything afterward is just a formality. It doesn't matter if an allopathic schools gave out stickers for good performance. They could do whatever they want and get away with it, still match into Harvard. A DO student on the other hand still has much to prove so letter grades may be helpful to those in the top. Not good for mental health though. There is no good answer to all of this.

I'm not so sure that is true. There are plenty of allopathic students that I choose not to interview because of poor scores. A DO student who ranks highly at their school and gets great letters of recommendation is a better candidate than an MD student who is near the bottom of their class and is average or below average in their letters.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Well folks...this is an interesting conversation. What happened to the "grades don't matter" crowd ?

And they still don't matter (as long as passing). GamerEMdoc is saying he does use rank or 'quartile' to some extent, but even in his earlier posts he says it is distant to SLOEs and boards in ranking. Just like getting into med school, your 4.0 doesn't mean much without the associated national boards to back it up.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

And they still don't matter (as long as passing). GamerEMdoc is saying he does use rank or 'quartile' to some extent, but even in his earlier posts he says it is distant to SLOEs and boards in ranking. Just like getting into med school, your 4.0 doesn't mean much without the associated national boards to back it up.

Exactly

 

[Goro]

This is true but the students who attend DO schools are grouped into another category (those who weren't strong enough academically to get into an MD school). Those MD students who are in schools that have P/F have in a way "already made it" by virtue of getting in. Thus anything afterward is just a formality. It doesn't matter if an allopathic schools gave out stickers for good performance. They could do whatever they want and get away with it, still match into Harvard. A DO student on the other hand still has much to prove so letter grades may be helpful to those in the top. Not good for mental health though. There is no good answer to all of this.

Time and time again, the PDs in these fora do NOT think this way, especially for the bolded text. Yes, there are PDs that don't take DO grads, period. But to think that they give a free pass to any grad with an MD is wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

Time and time again, the PDs in these fora do NOT think this way, especially for the bolded text. Yes, there are PDs that don't take DO grads, period. But to think that they give a free pass to any grad with an MD is wrong, wrong, wrong.

To each their own I guess..there is a thread in the OB forum that says otherwise.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

To each their own I guess..there is a thread in the OB forum that says otherwise.

Its no surprise different fields value different things in a candidate. I can only comment on EM. I have no idea what OB wants in a candidate.

 

[Norwood-Sano]

USMLE >>>>>> Grades

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I recently interviewed at a DO school and they gave us a tour. The student ambassadors showed us the OMM lab and explained how its an amazing class they use to relieve their stress every week by taking a break from their other medical school classes. Whats worse is the other interviewees believed them.

It is a relax class. In fact, it's an easy A with very little studying. It's just that most of it doesn't have any basis though which defeats the purpose of even learning it in the first place.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

I recently interviewed at a DO school and they gave us a tour. The student ambassadors showed us the OMM lab and explained how its an amazing class they use to relieve their stress every week by taking a break from their other medical school classes. Whats worse is the other interviewees believed them.

Most of the student ambassadors are hand picked by the school to advance the school agenda. But, overall OMM is a chill and easy class. Go to a school with 2-3 hrs of OMM per week instead of the others with 4-5 hrs of OMM per week.

But more MDs especially in primary care are learning OMM bc of the demand for it in primary care.

If you’re not going into Peds or FM, it’s useless.

 

[nooneyouknow]

Never knew primary care docs were learning OMM. Thanks for the correction. I turned down the DO schools i applied to anyway but good to know for the future.

I know Harvard has a program for current med students interested in or leaning towards PC or PM&R for OMM experiences. Wouldn't be surprised if others do as well.

 

[Goro]

Most of the student ambassadors are hand picked by the school to advance the school agenda. But, overall OMM is a chill and easy class. Go to a school with 2-3 hrs of OMM per week instead of the others with 4-5 hrs of OMM per week.

But more MDs especially in primary care are learning OMM bc of the demand for it in primary care.

If you’re not going into Peds or FM, it’s useless.

Don't forget PM&R and NMM. Setting up an OMM practice in a decent area can get one to clear as much as any dermatologist, and with less overhead.