Picking a residency program - missing residents

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trepon

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I'm a 4th year interviewing at various programs and programs that have a missing resident in a given year are automatically red flagged.

My question is:

Can residencies hide the fact that people have left or kicked out easily by replacing that resident somehow?
 
I'm a 4th year interviewing at various programs and programs that have a missing resident in a given year are automatically red flagged.

My question is:

Can residencies hide the fact that people have left or kicked out easily by replacing that resident somehow?
It depends on when the person leaves and what field you're applying to. In IM, you can replace an intern with a new PGY2 the following year pretty easily. In surgery, they routinely can replace with a new PGY2 or new PGY3. Psychiatry is probably the most flexible, because they have few enough requirements (barely 2.5-3 years worth of requirements in a 4 year residency) that people from lots of fields can move into it as PGY2-3s. Psych also has the highest attrition of any field (~25% over 4 years), even more than gen surg.

It isn't necessarily a red flag by the way. People can voluntarily quit because they don't like the field. My IM residency program had an intern quit the year before I started because he decided he liked psychiatry more than IM, and from what I heard from his classmates he was doing perfectly fine and was on track for promotion. Even a (single) resident being fired isn't that much of a red flag: we lost one from my residency program a few years below me, and she was an exception relative to everyone else that went through. My program wasn't malignant by any stretch.

It's patterns of firings or incompetent residents resigning thats a red flag, and those are much harder to pick up on.
 
I understand that people change their minds but I am in the extremely fortunate situation of having more residency interview invites than time.

I will not rank a program that does not provide a roster of all their residents (they might be hiding something) and programs with missing residents are flagged for further scrutiny but still ranked. I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot by asking about that missing resident during the interview but if a program addresses it head on, they move up higher on my list and it is seen as a huge positive.
 
I understand that people change their minds but I am in the extremely fortunate situation of having more residency interview invites than time.

I will not rank a program that does not provide a roster of all their residents (they might be hiding something) and programs with missing residents are flagged for further scrutiny but still ranked. I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot by asking about that missing resident during the interview but if a program addresses it head on, they move up higher on my list and it is seen as a huge positive.
If you interview somewhere and don't rank it, you are making the statement that you would rather go completely unmatched (and SOAP) rather than go there. Leaving programs unranked is something you should never do lightly.
 
I understand that people change their minds but I am in the extremely fortunate situation of having more residency interview invites than time.

I will not rank a program that does not provide a roster of all their residents (they might be hiding something) and programs with missing residents are flagged for further scrutiny but still ranked. I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot by asking about that missing resident during the interview but if a program addresses it head on, they move up higher on my list and it is seen as a huge positive.

Some programs don't list residents. Some just list where the residents came from for med school. This is not a sign of a bad program. By your criteria, you could have a lower tier program that has your website you want and info presented and that makes it instantly better than a mid-upper tier place that just never bothered to list that info. Maybe they have too many residents that updating it is a hassle. Who knows. But your posts make me think you don't really understand why there may be less residents in a given year than otherwise.
 
I understand that people change their minds but I am in the extremely fortunate situation of having more residency interview invites than time.

I will not rank a program that does not provide a roster of all their residents (they might be hiding something) and programs with missing residents are flagged for further scrutiny but still ranked. I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot by asking about that missing resident during the interview but if a program addresses it head on, they move up higher on my list and it is seen as a huge positive.

Woah, simmer down now! For particularly large programs, there actually might be some variability in class size from year to year. Some programs have "research" track positions (that often add a year of training), and others (particularly smaller subspecialty surgery programs) may have a different number of residents from year to year altogether. Add in programs with A vs C vs R spots then the numbers can get even more random (there is trend right now in Anesthesiology to transition most spots to categorical, making class sizes look off).

I'm at a large program right now, and we've had some attrition. If you have a baseline attrition rate of 5-10% like most specialties not named general surgery (or as I've read above, Psychiatry) then you will have some people decide to do other things - you don't know what personal decisions went into that, these things are often outside of the program's control. Some might even be ushered into other specialties. Not everything is black and white in this area, and you are doing yourself a disservice by oversimplifying this issue.
 
I'm a 4th year interviewing at various programs and programs that have a missing resident in a given year are automatically red flagged.

My question is:

Can residencies hide the fact that people have left or kicked out easily by replacing that resident somehow?

I've read a lot of really terrible reasons for choosing/avoiding certain programs. This may in fact be the dumbest one ever.
 
I've read a lot of really terrible reasons for choosing/avoiding certain programs. This may in fact be the dumbest one ever.
Really? I think the guy in the IM forum that was stating he wouldn't rank any program that didn't use EPIC took the cake.
 
I'm a 4th year interviewing at various programs and programs that have a missing resident in a given year are automatically red flagged.

My question is:

Can residencies hide the fact that people have left or kicked out easily by replacing that resident somehow?

Yes, they could replace the resident. There are physician only positions for that reason. It's easier to do in some fields over others.

But losing a resident isn't necessarily a red flag. One of my classmates intern year decided to pursue Derm instead of Peds, and didn't continue over intern year. And we had someone in the year above us need to take a prolonged break for personal reasons, and joined our class for completion of residency. Doesn't mean that we have issues with retention, just means that life continues during residency.
 
I interviewed at a big name West coast program where they were missing one resident out of 7 from each class PGY-3 to PGY-5 for various reasons. Definitely makes you suspicious about the work environment when the attrition rate is that high, especially when the pool of people they are choosing from are all high achievers. I would hesitate to rank that place highly, but missing one or two residents in a larger program I'd just shrug it off.
 
Really? I think the guy in the IM forum that was stating he wouldn't rank any program that didn't use EPIC took the cake.

Meh, I mean I get it from that perspective. If you're not great with learning EMRs on the fly, and you've had 2 years with one EMR and no exposure to any other EMRs, and you have the capability of being selective in that regard (given how ubiquitious EPIC seems to be becoming, that's probably the best EMR he/she could've chosen for such a stand), I don't see why, pre-interview, you shouldn't necessarily think that.

I don't think it should be the end-all/be-all but I can see it factoring into an applicants decision. That being said, MS4s can make whatever broad general statements they want before interview season starts, but wait and see what they end up prioritizing AFTER they interview at the program that has no other redeeming factors besides EPIC.
 
Internal medicine is miserable enough without having to deal with a **** EMR or, god forbid, paper notes. Hats off to that guy.
 
For real, what EMR you use day to day actually probably matters more to you on a daily basis than whether a program is missing a resident or not. Having worked with both good and bad EMRs, a good EMR can save you hundreds of hours a year in workflow.
 
I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot by asking about that missing resident during the interview
That's crazy. You should ask about it if it matters to you. I don't see how that would be shooting yourself in the foot. You really think a program would dislike you because you show enough interest to ask questions about potential negatives there?
 
For real, what EMR you use day to day actually probably matters more to you on a daily basis than whether a program is missing a resident or not. Having worked with both good and bad EMRs, a good EMR can save you hundreds of hours a year in workflow.

Thats a very interesting perspective and something seemimgly silly now makes a lot more sense to me.
 
Thats a very interesting perspective and something seemimgly silly now makes a lot more sense to me.
For a pre-podiatry student, you seem to have a lot of interesting opinions about residency training.
😉
 
While it's obviously a huge red flag if multiple people quit or are not promoted in a program, a missing resident or two is hardly uncommon. I go to an extremely supportive program, but it is also very large and because of that, I'd say we're probably missing an average of one a class for one reason or another. In recent memory, one resident passed away, one had a weird situation where she was an out-of-country attending who was a fellow and then had to do residency after so started with my class but finished a year early due to accommodations, one got engaged intern year and transferred to a program across the country to be with her fiancee (and changed fields when she realized she hated pediatrics), and one worked out an arrangement to do a part-time residency and just extend the length of her training to be at home with her baby. That said, no one has been fired or not had contracts renewed despite the fact that everyone in my program could probably name a handful or so that probably should not have been allowed to advance (for both gross incompetency issues or unprofessional behavior). I don't think any of this has ever come up with an applicant to our program that I know of, and none of us would ever think to explain a "missing resident" because the stories don't seem worth mentioning (or even remembering... I had to wrack my brain for those). I almost feel like the fact a program mentions a missing resident makes it more likely there's a story behind it (unless they are just a really small program).
 
This of course could be hidden. I recommend checking all the cached versions of the websites going back minimum of ten years to look for overall resident turnover percentages.
 
For real, what EMR you use day to day actually probably matters more to you on a daily basis than whether a program is missing a resident or not. Having worked with both good and bad EMRs, a good EMR can save you hundreds of hours a year in workflow.

This is so true. I got really irritated as I matched at a program that said they had an EMR but didn't. I guess I should have asked to see it. I mourned my wasted time daily. It was demoralizing to spend more time doing a given task in residency than med school due to an inefficient system.
 


I mean if you really wanted good data on residents leaving I recommend doing it methodically.

In reality we had several residents leave a few years before me and during residency. All changed career or specialty. We also had several come in as there significant others were in residencies at my institution . Some tried to match there originally but didn't match at their first choice but when people left could come in. Ultimately it was even people coming in and leaving. I think you'd get an idea of this by asking current residents. Whose left, why, when? Are people happy etc etc. are you supported by faculty?
 
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