Piracy featured article

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Trexate

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YA HA HARGH!!

That featured article has finally come to fruition. "Piracy is bad," say victims of piracy.

Among the more interesting points:

  • Piracy 'victims' claiming that piracy is the reason for exorbitant prices.
  • Joe Biden endorses piracy with his double negative containing statement, "It ain’t no different than smashing a window at Tiffany’s and grabbing [merchandise]."
  • Pirates are ruining America's economy: "...motion picture piracy piracy costs the U.S. economy over $20 billion and results in the loss of more than 141,000 jobs for American workers."
 
:hijacked: the pirate movie was rated arrrrrrrrrrrrrr :hijacked:
 
  • Piracy 'victims' claiming that piracy is the reason for exorbitant prices.

  • Joe Biden endorses piracy with his double negative containing statement, "It ain’t no different than smashing a window at Tiffany’s and grabbing [merchandise]."

  • Pirates are ruining America's economy: "...motion picture piracy piracy costs the U.S. economy over $20 billion and results in the loss of more than 141,000 jobs for American workers."

1) That's a nice excuse.

2) :laugh: Well, we know what he meant to say. Plus, in the article, the quote preceding it was, "Piracy is theft".

3) Estimates that are given are very poorly calculated and therefore inaccurate. About two months ago, it was found that the FBI's estimates, which were used as a standard, were found to be gross overestimates.

Here's a paragraph from one article:


The report from the GAO and the White House says that “Three commonly cited estimates of U.S. industry losses due to counterfeiting have been sourced to U.S. agencies, but cannot be substantiated or traced back to an underlying data source or methodology,” adding that “First, a number of industry, media, and government publications have cited an FBI estimate that U.S. businesses lose $200-$250 billion to counterfeiting on an annual basis. This estimate was contained in a 2002 FBI press release, but FBI officials told us that it has no record of source data or methodology for generating the estimate and that it cannot be corroborated.”
 
The thread stated that it was for the article. Unfortunately, I cannot find the original thread though.
 
The one about pooling money and passwords? IIRC, it was closed and deleted when AAMC lawyers got involved. I don't know I may be blurring the practice test and the spreadsheet threads together.
 
The one about pooling money and passwords? IIRC, it was closed and deleted when AAMC lawyers got involved. I don't know I may be blurring the practice test and the spreadsheet threads together.

There was a recent thread started by the article's author on student opinions on piracy, especially with regard to test prep.
 
The one about pooling money and passwords? IIRC, it was closed and deleted when AAMC lawyers got involved. I don't know I may be blurring the practice test and the spreadsheet threads together.

Oh no... I don't think so at least. There was a thread open a while ago (a month or so) discussing the issue of this kid selling Kaplan material and using high costs of education and test-prep as an excuse.

What you're talking about is old news about the MSAR spreadsheets... I think.
 
3) Estimates that are given are very poorly calculated and therefore inaccurate. About two months ago, it was found that the FBI's estimates, which were used as a standard, were found to be gross overestimates.

They also assume that each person obtaining a pirated version would have purchased it at full price otherwise.
 
Oh no... I don't think so at least. There was a thread open a while ago (a month or so) discussing the issue of this kid selling Kaplan material and using high costs of education and test-prep as an excuse.

What you're talking about is old news about the MSAR spreadsheets... I think.

I remember now, the thread I'm talking about was more like a tutorial on how several students could get access to all of the online MCAT practice tests. Sorry for the confusion.
 
What y'all need to remember about piracy on the internet is that the internet isn't a big truck. It's a series of tubes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f99PcP0aFNE[/YOUTUBE]

Because of piracy, my office sent out an internet last Sunday, and when did I get it? Today!
 
Every one of those anti-piracy arguments is so fundamentally flawed, it's laughable.
 
  • Pirates are ruining America's economy: "...motion picture piracy piracy costs the U.S. economy over $20 billion and results in the loss of more than 141,000 jobs for American workers."

Biden's *****ic comment aside, there is no evidence piracy damages the economy in any way.

1. The estimates are obviously completely wrong. They're likely calculating $20 billion by counting every single person that downloads a movie even though there's little to no guarantee any of those people would have went to see that movie.

2. The people who pirate are not rich, this means they have a limited budget. The money they save by pirating material goes elsewhere in the economy. Theoretically for every job lost via piracy there should be a job gained.
 
I guess I'm not understanding what all the hub-bub is about in regards to high prices. If I create an MCAT class and call it WUMedic's MCAT Prep Academy, then I can charge whatever I wish for it. If it includes exclusive rights to my videos of Nobel Lauretes lecturing about gen chem, aren't I entitled to sell "tickets" to view those for what I want? If they then write some books for me, aren't I entitled to sell them at $1000 a pop?

I guess the question is why are people who agree that copying a DVD is wrong think there is an justification for high priced MCAT courses and materials using solely the cost of the material alone as a justification. If people are buying my materials and enrolling my my academy, and I am making a profit, then I can take that as a sign of demand of my product and know that my product is worth at least as much as I am asking for it. If not enough people buy what I'm selling, I know that there is either no demand, or simply, people don't think it is worth as much as I think it's worth.

Finally, if ACME comes in with an equivalent quality Academy and materials and sells at half the price I am asking, I will lose business and be forced to lower my prices. But since we have quite a few test prep companies all charging the same rates (give or take a couple hundred) doesn't that mean that these courses are valued by a lot of people (or at least enough people to allow these companies to turn a profit) for what they are priced just like DVDs are?


Finally, textbooks are a completely different issue, but while I'm already making a post the issue with textbooks is different. Courses REQUIRE you to have some texts. These texts are chosen by people (professors, departments, etc) who are not the end buyer (students). So it would be a bit like going shopping for a car for your driving students to drive, but having their credit card in your hand. Of course you'll chose the one with the features YOU like most and think will be best for them, and not caring that it costs them a fortune because it's not YOU who is paying for it. There are also issues like international editions and such that we can talk about if anyone does want to bring it up but I'm going to quit here. Still though, the main reason the textbook argument doesn't hold up to the MCAT test prep is that 1) textbooks are required, and 2) it's not the same system at all! The shopper and the buyer are the same person!
 
sweet, I was quoted

That's exactly what I wanted to find out from the forum... Who was picked, what I originally said, etc... But I can't seem to find it through my history.

Grats though! 😉
 
Okay then. Give us a non-laughable pro-piracy argument.

Ripping things off is less than desirable, IMO.

The best pro-piracy argument is that it increases sales and popularity of things by word of mouth.

For example, Family Guy was partially rescued by the Internet, so was Futurama, and Firefly (although it was only rescued for a single movie). While most of them cite DVD sales as the reason for their eventual return, what you don't hear about is that networks saw how popular Family Guy and Futurama were on the Internet (where pirates constantly talked about how amazing it was). This popularity also lead to huge DVD sales. Word of mouth is immeasurably powerful.

Another example is when I saw the movie Ed Wood on a less than legal website. There is no possible way I would have ever paid to see this movie because it didn't look that interesting, but I found it to be awesome. I told my friends about it, my family about it, and posted about it on my FB. My parents liked it so much they even bought a copy of it from Amazon.

But I can't honestly find a good argument for pirating textbooks. It's not like word of mouth can really be used to help their sales.
 
Okay then. Give us a non-laughable pro-piracy argument.

Ripping things off is less than desirable, IMO.
The only reason this "piracy debate" exists is because outdated companies and industries, like the RIAA and MPAA, refuse to adapt to a changing landscape. Thanks to the internet, they are quickly becoming obsolete. Instead of finding a new, sustainable business model that will still allow them to be relevant alongside the internet, they are being stubborn and refusing to change.

When the automobile became widespread, you think the cart and carriage makers were happy? Should the government have made the use of automobiles illegal because it hurt a now-obsolete cart and carriage industry?

We are in the information age now, and the internet (along with file sharing) are here to stay. The record and movie industries can continue to prove their obsolesence by trying to fight it, or they can accept it and come up with strategies to take advantage of it.

All of this, of course, presupposes that "piracy" is not wrong. I don't have time to go into that kind of detail and get into that argument, but I will tell you that there are dozens upon dozens of excellent sources on the internet that will explain it quite well, if you do a search for them.
 
If not enough people buy what I'm selling, I know that there is either no demand, or simply, people don't think it is worth as much as I think it's worth.
Wrong. You find a reason to continue with your current business model because change costs lots of money. So you blame piracy for the drop in numbers and continue to charge too much, despite it being clear that a good chunk of people don't think your product is worth the cost.

Finally, if ACME comes in with an equivalent quality Academy and materials and sells at half the price I am asking, I will lose business and be forced to lower my prices. But since we have quite a few test prep companies all charging the same rates (give or take a couple hundred) doesn't that mean that these courses are valued by a lot of people (or at least enough people to allow these companies to turn a profit) for what they are priced just like DVDs are?
In an ideal world, sure. But more than likely, it's an oligopoly that is exploiting the stereotypical pre-med / med student. You know, the kind with well-off parents that can afford to pay the cost to satisfy their child's dreams. I really don't think Kaplan is finding it difficult to turn a profit these days ($2.6 billion revenue in 2009). Very rarely do things work in practice as well as they do on paper. So when The Last Airbender comes out on DVD it will cost just as much as any other DVD, despite being inferior in quality and likely to sell in abysmal numbers.

Finally, textbooks are a completely different issue, but while I'm already making a post the issue with textbooks is different. Courses REQUIRE you to have some texts. These texts are chosen by people (professors, departments, etc) who are not the end buyer (students) ... Still though, the main reason the textbook argument doesn't hold up to the MCAT test prep is that 1) textbooks are required, and 2) it's not the same system at all! The shopper and the buyer are the same person!
I disagree. I think the same underlying principle is at work: perceived need. You don't need a textbook for every class, despite being 'required' to have it. You could just as easily borrow someone's, or make copies of what you need. (Uh oh, sounds like piracy. Argghhhh, no more photocopies!!) You don't need test prep materials either, but I've yet to find someone that doesn't highly recommend them. Not to mention that the test prep company's advertising is aimed to convince us that we need their stuff. More over, what do you use if you're a non-trad student that hasn't taken bio in years? In that case, I'd definitely say you need it.
Do you really think that putting the shopping power in the student's hands would lower the cost of textbooks? I doubt it. Because in the end, we still 'need' a book, so who is picking it out no longer matters. And seeing as the number of textbook publishing companies is rather small, I'm guessing the ability and desire for price fixing pervades that as well.
 
So when The Last Airbender comes out on DVD it will cost just as much as any other DVD, despite being inferior in quality and likely to sell in abysmal numbers.

Lol. I could not believe how awful that movie was. I looked at Rotten Tomatoes before I went to see it (it was at a ridiculously low 8%) and I just couldn't believe it. Then I left the theater in awe... All I was thinking about was that I probably would have had a better time watching twilight.
ill-violated-dead-smiley-4663.gif


By the way, I agree wholeheartedly with the points you made. Well done.
 
Then I left the theater in awe... All I was thinking about was that I probably would have had a better time watching twilight.

Funny story. G/f and I went to see the new Twilight at the midnight showing. It was exceptionally terrible. Not just because it was Twilight, but because they had spliced the segments together incorrectly. So we got to watch the movie completely out of sequence and then try and piece together which scenes should have been where. Turns out, even when in the proper sequence the movie is still bad.
 
Wrong. You find a reason to continue with your current business model because change costs lots of money. So you blame piracy for the drop in numbers and continue to charge too much, despite it being clear that a good chunk of people don't think your product is worth the cost.

Ok, I like your argument here, but let's look at it this way. A lot of people like hot, fast sports cars, but not all of those people buy them. Why? I would venture to say that they cannot justify spending that kind of money on their transportation when they could get something that gets them from point A to point B for a fraction of the cost. If fewer people buy corvettes (due to the decline in economy, or that fact that they found out BP is using child laborers*, or whatever reason) then BP can either change their business model (i.e. make a cheaper corvette, lower their profit margin, market the corvette differently, stop using child laborers, etc) which is expensive, or they can decide that they still have enough customers and with this new (albeit lower number) they can still live with that profit. Here now though, a lot of people already didn't think the product is worth the cost, and now even more people don't think that the product is worth the cost, but taking the corvette for a joyride on the weekends (or whatever the equivalent of pirating a corvette is)** isn't justified because you don't value it for what they are asking. In most instances in the US, the decision to buy is a binary decision. Do I buy the (CD, DVD, movie ticket) or not? If the asking price is below or perhaps just above what I value the product for, I make the choice to buy the product. If the asking price is much higher than what I value the product at, I decide not the buy the product. I may think that something is a rip-off, but if I need it badly, then I value it more which sets it above the asking price. Buying a car is slightly different because if my value of the car differs from the asking price, I can haggle it down to somewhere where both the seller and I agree on a fair price. Ditto with MCAT classes. So as long as you don't value it at $1, most people who are reasonable and understand the costs of production of the materials can get a few hundred bucks shaven off the asking price to what they value it to be.

*Disclaimer 1, Chevy does not actually employ child laborers to my knowledge, this was just an example
*Disclaimer 2, there is no perfect analogue to a car for piracy of digital media. Stealing the car is not the same a pirating because stealing denies the original owner use. Likewise joyriding denies the original owner use for a period of time, but I felt it was a closer analogue.

In an ideal world, sure. But more than likely, it's an oligopoly that is exploiting the stereotypical pre-med / med student. You know, the kind with well-off parents that can afford to pay the cost to satisfy their child's dreams. I really don't think Kaplan is finding it difficult to turn a profit these days ($2.6 billion revenue in 2009). Very rarely do things work in practice as well as they do on paper. So when The Last Airbender comes out on DVD it will cost just as much as any other DVD, despite being inferior in quality and likely to sell in abysmal numbers.
Those who can afford luxuries will be better off, I agree. But I'm not bitter about it, and certainly I'm not going to take the luxury if I cannot afford it or try to justify why doing so would be right like some of the others on this board. I doubt they have issues turning a profit either, hence why they don't lower their prices. They have enough business to keep themselves afloat and kickin'. And if that DVD is truly as bad as you think it is, then it'll sell at the low end of DVDs. If you go into your local bestbuy or wherever you buy your DVDs from, you'll see that some are less than $10 a piece whereas others push 35 or 40. You have to agree that that phenomenon is driven at least partially by demand right?


I disagree. I think the same underlying principle is at work: perceived need. You don't need a textbook for every class, despite being 'required' to have it. You could just as easily borrow someone's, or make copies of what you need. (Uh oh, sounds like piracy. Argghhhh, no more photocopies!!) You don't need test prep materials either, but I've yet to find someone that doesn't highly recommend them. Not to mention that the test prep company's advertising is aimed to convince us that we need their stuff. More over, what do you use if you're a non-trad student that hasn't taken bio in years? In that case, I'd definitely say you need it.
Do you really think that putting the shopping power in the student's hands would lower the cost of textbooks? I doubt it. Because in the end, we still 'need' a book, so who is picking it out no longer matters. And seeing as the number of textbook publishing companies is rather small, I'm guessing the ability and desire for price fixing pervades that as well.
Well, you might not "need" the textbook, but the fact that it is required for the class causes you to value it more (a la the response in the first paragraph above). Borrowing someone's to look at some problems is perfectly valid as someone has legally purchased a copy of the book with the rights to use it 24/7. By using it 23 hours a day and letting you borrow it for 1 hour a day, he is (very kindly i must add!) letting you use something he purchased and has the right to use. If you were to both be bad at chemistry, and needed the book much more often, then you would value it enough to buy a second copy of the book (assuming you also value a good grade in the class!) Making a photocopy is a different issue since now you are creating 48 hours of use when you only purchased 24. If you make photocopies for yourself to make filling in worksheets easier, or so you don't have to carry around a huge book when you only need the reference pages, or things like that that is not adding more product since you yourself can only use it for 24 hours a day no matter how many copies you have. When you start giving them to others, or selling them to others, that is where the problem comes in.

And while copying a certain problem to have a friend look over is technically illegal, it's a far cry from copying entire texts and lectures and then selling them to others.

How other companies market it is not an issue in my opinion as long as their marketing techniques are legal. If they convince you you need their services, then their marketers are making their day's pay! I didn't really feel like eating pizza today, but then I got a coupon in the mail and the pizza on it looked REALLY good so I decided to call in a pizza. That's how advertising works!

And if you are a non trad student, you have the option of self studying at the library or looking through your old bio textbooks. If you want the luxury, then you'll need to pay for the luxury. IF you can't afford it, I feel for you, but either you can save up the money, or you can self-study.

And yes, I do feel that if we let students choose textbooks based on price the price would go down. By how much, I don't know, but consider this just at my school of 8000 undergraduates. When offered the choice between two textbooks for a certain Biomedical Engineering class (the relevant chapters were basically the same and we primarily needed the reference tables and learn how to use them) the class overwhelmingly chose to buy the cheaper one. If this were to happen on a national scale, we just put the other company out of business! They would either have to lower their price, make a better product, or pull that product. If they have 1000 products and this happens to 900 of them, they're toast!

Students already do have some choice. I almost NEVER buy my books at the bookstore on campus simply because they are more expensive. With the advent of half.com, amazon, barnes and noble, etc online, the book store is seeing fewer and fewer people buy from them. The only time I buy from the bookstore is if our professor wrote the textbook and is selling it through the bookstore which causes them to be cheaper (since we cut out a few middlemen) Whereas the book store used to sell at above the MSRP, now we see prices at or slightly below (about 10% below) MSRP. Coincidence? I think it might be a reaction to fewer sales. Further, sellbacks are also going up in value to match those of online sellback places.

Students do have some choice (buying online, buying paperback versions from elsewhere, buying international student editions) which does affect market price, just not as much as if you gave them a lot more control.


An aside: Has anyone else found that even if you do need a book immediately, it is still often cheaper for you to buy it online and have it overnight-ed than to buy the book from your campus bookstore? The difference is between getting the book at 5pm tonight versus 10AM the next day, and I save myself about 40 bucks still!


Also, may I add: Thank GOD for some intelligent discussion around here. I'm so tired of people ducking their heads into a thread, saying a line to insult someone they disagree with, but not actually saying WHY they disagree (probably because they don't actually know why they disagree and don't care to think about it!)
 
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... Ditto with MCAT classes.

This would imply that haggling the price of MCAT prep material takes place. I'm unaware of any such occasion where this has happened successfully. I can't imagine going into a book store, or writing a letter to Amazon.com suggesting that they sell me an item below their listed price. Sure, you could try. But does it work? No. And I'm really failing to see the connection between MCAT material and cars.

You're right though, they are still making money with their failing business model. Just not as much as they used to be. But rather than own up to it and say, "yeah, we've been overcharging for so many years and now people have become wise to it," they make excuses for the poor sales. Look what the RIAA claimed was damaging CD sales. Was it that people decided that paying $15 for a CD wasn't worth it because there was only a single decent song on an album? Of course not. It was those damn pirates and Napster. Metallica's last album was s*** and didn't sell. Get the lawyers on the phone so we can sue some 12 year olds to make up for those bad numbers.

Those who can afford luxuries will be better off, I agree. ...
Absolutely right, they will be better off. But while you're complacent with the elite getting access to the best educational materials, I am not. I don't feel that the poor don't deserve to have access to the same material because they can't afford it. Education, in my opinion, should not be a luxury, but a right.

"We must keep this from the serfs less they gain literacy and threaten the landed gentry."

The 'DVD phenomenon' is driven by demand, yes. But it's demand on a local level. Breaking even on a transaction is better than having 500 extra copies of Gigli because no one will buy them at $15 a pop. So the store puts them in the $5 discount bin and hopes to break even on them. Does this get back to the original distributor? No.

When you start giving them to others, or selling them to others, that is where the problem comes in. ...
I'm not advocating the copying and selling thing. You shouldn't be making a profit off someone else's work. Except that's the exact thing these companies are doing. They're taking these lectures and whatever else, slapping a fancy label on them and charging people money for it. Fine. They paid for the lectures and whatever else they're using.

But didn't someone pay for those DVDs originally to make those copies? What's the difference between what Kaplan does and what this kid did? Aside from the minor inconvenience that this kid doesn't have the money to persuade politicians to pass laws safeguarding his business practices, while making it illegal for anyone to follow suit.

How other companies market it is not an issue in my opinion as long as their marketing techniques are legal. ...
What is good and what is legal don't always coincide. Playing on people's worst fears is 100% legal. Marketing practice is extremely important. I think we can all agree that just because there are legal ways for cigarette companies to market to children, that doesn't mean they should.

And if you are a non trad student, you have the option of self studying at the library or looking through your old bio textbooks. ...
You're right. You could self-study at the library or look through old texts, and many people do this. But if you want the 'luxury' you don't have to pay for it. If I can borrow someone's DVD set to help me out, versus paying for one myself, I'm going to save the money and borrow someone else's. I'm never going to need it after I've taken the MCAT, so why would I buy it if I don't have to?
You could buy the DVDs and then sell them when you're through with them, but that's the company passing off price deflation onto you. This is rampant with all overpriced goods. When you drive a car off the lot, how much does it drop in value?

And yes, I do feel that if we let students choose textbooks based on price the price would go down. ...
Too vague. What were the different books? You're assuming the books were published by two different companies. With only a handful of textbook publishers out there, I wouldn't be surprised to find they were published by the same company. You won't put a textbook publisher out of business by not buying one of their books. Not to mention that just because publisher A has the cheapest Biomed Engineering book doesn't mean they have all the cheapest books. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that each publisher has a racket on certain types of books, or that some price fixing is taking place.

Students already do have some choice. ...
The matter at hand here is due to companies like eFollet further jacking the price of already overpriced books and then buying them back at less than market value. Buying from Half.com and other sites is combating them, not the overpriced books themselves. Someone still had to buy that book at MSRP at one point or another. Reaction to fewer sales, sure. But that's not getting back to the publishers who have set their prices already.

Also, may I add...
I think the main reason people do this is because they do disagree, but unlike myself, don't have the ample amounts of free time to adequately phrase everything they want to say. So they let you know they disagree with an insult because it's like saying everything I've said, but faster.

You're not going to convince me of the evils of piracy. It's just not going to happen. I don't feel bad taking money away from Kaplan. I don't feel bad that Lars Ulrich can't afford a new jet. I don't lose sleep at night worrying about whether Sony will be able to green light more crappy movies like Gigli because people are pirating Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. Bill Gates will only be the 2nd richest man in the world, and it's all my fault because I refuse to spend $300 on MS Office. I've got bigger things to worry about. Things that CEOs, famous actors and musicians, and software moguls don't have to. Things like a grocery bill.

Should I have to sacrifice education, listening to music, watching movies, and knowing how to use the most prevalent software out there because I have to buy food? You say yes and call me a thief, and I respectfully disagree. I'm a revolutionary fighting the evils of a consumer driven capitalistic society, but I prefer the term pirate.
 
The best pro-piracy argument is that it increases sales and popularity of things by word of mouth.

For example, Family Guy was partially rescued by the Internet, so was Futurama, and Firefly (although it was only rescued for a single movie). While most of them cite DVD sales as the reason for their eventual return, what you don't hear about is that networks saw how popular Family Guy and Futurama were on the Internet (where pirates constantly talked about how amazing it was). This popularity also lead to huge DVD sales. Word of mouth is immeasurably powerful.
Another example would be less mainstream music genres. 70% of the bands I know about, I heard about on the internet since those bands are never played on the radio.

But I can't honestly find a good argument for pirating textbooks. It's not like word of mouth can really be used to help their sales.
If one wants to rationalize it, he can bring up the fact that textbook publishing is run by an oligopoly (there are a lot of different brands but many of them are subsidiaries of other brands) and therefore they run up the prices in a very questionable way. Two wrongs don't make a right though.

More importantly, intellectual property law is often assumed to be fair, but this might be a poor assumption. There is the argument that things like patents, copyright don't increase innovation, but I'm not too aware of the evidence for these arguments.
 
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